Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by Mists

 

I'm sorry? Acted with restraint? Hitler? You don't know much about him do you? As for these 5-20 tactical nukes please provide a scintilla of evidence for their very existence.

Oh so you want a source... why didn't you say so?

Professor Friedrich Lachner was assistant for twenty years to
professor Mache at the Department for Technical Physics at the
Technical University of Vienna. Familiar with aspects of the
German bomb project, Lachner unburdened himself of his
knowledge to researchers Mayer and Mehner. Among his
allegations were that at least one completed bomb of German
construction was transported from Thuringia to Salzburg by the SS
near the end of the war.

Lachner's letter is intriguing for two reasons. First, because it

corroborates the existence of a large atom bomb program in the
Three Corners region [Thuringa], and corroborates Freier's allegations of a
successful test in March 1945. By mentioning the transportation of
such weapons out of the region, he gives some credence to the idea
that the U-234 might have been used to transport at least one such
weapon to Norway.

But a more curious allegation is made in Lachner's letter to
Mayer and Mehner, and with it, we begin to approach the even
more horrendous potentialities of Nazi wartime secret weapons
research. Citing the letter of a British espionage agent who was
well-aware of the multi-tiered nature of the German atom bomb
program, and who was aware of a "third team that sought another

citation: Mayer and Mehner, das Geheimnis, p. 81. Lachner also asserts
unequivocally in his letter to Mayer and Mehner that the bomb dropped on
Hiroshima was German (p. 82). Lachner also states that there were no less than
fifteen atom bombs in German hands by the war's end. Again, on first glance,
this seems a sheer fantasy, unless they had already mastered the techniques of
boosted fission.

So what were these facilities researching? Almost nothing was
known about them until witnesses and relatives of witnesses began
to talk after German reunification. One such man was Adolf Bernd
Freier who, before his death in Argentina, wrote German
researchers Edgar Meyer and Thomas Mehner a letter detailing his
knowledge of the facilities gained while he was on the construction
staff. There were, Freier alleged, facilities dedicated to special
circular aircraft(I), to the "Amerika Raket", the intercontinental
ballistic missile capable of reaching the United States, and research
facilities of atomic experiments under the direction of Dr. Kurt
Diebner, and a complete underground factory for the production of
heavy water!

But most importantly, Freier alleges that the "atomic weapon"
was ready on July 2, 1944! 24 What type of atomic weapon is meant
here? A "dirty" radiological bomb, designed to spray a vast area
with deadly radioactive material but far short of an actual nuclear
fission bomb? Or an actual atom bomb itself? Freier's choice of
words is not clear.

Source: Meyer and Mehner, das Geheimnis., p. 242

reply to post by sy.gunson


I see. So you have two people who claim to have seen things but not a single iota of actual proof. Is there any evidence for any of these so-called fifteen nuclear bombs? Is there a single solitary picture of this so-called underground heavy water factory? Anything?
I thought not.
I've gone through `Most Secret War` by R.V. Jones - which you seem to have used for your pictures of German radar systems. The chapter `Nuclear Energy` is open in front of me now. Jones states that although there was evidence of a partially-built nuclear pile in Hechingen when it was captured, along with a vast number of documents, there was no sign at all of a Nazi nuclear bomb. In any way, shape or form. Nor was there mention of a bomb in the documents.
Finally, Jones makes a good point when he refers to Speer's book 'Inside the Third Reich'. Speer states, very clearly, that if Hitler had had access to the bomb he would have used it without a second thought.

AngryCymraeg
Speer states, very clearly, that if Hitler had had access to the bomb he would have used it without a second thought.

So someone went up to Hitler and asked him what they wanted to do with the 15 atomic bombs that could destroy 15 cities, and Hitler said "forget about them"!

hellobruce

AngryCymraeg
Speer states, very clearly, that if Hitler had had access to the bomb he would have used it without a second thought.

So someone went up to Hitler and asked him what they wanted to do with the 15 atomic bombs that could destroy 15 cities, and Hitler said "forget about them"!

Yes, that sounds perfectly in keeping with the mentality of the man who wanted to level London, wipe Paris off the face of the earth and turn Moscow into a giant lake. Oh wait...

I realize that this is, for some odd reason, a heated topic for several of you.

While none of you have quite reached the point of rude, it's rapidly approaching.

Gently, people... Gently.

These are events that probably happened before we were born... No point in getting too heated.

Breathe

seagull
I realize that this is, for some odd reason, a heated topic for several of you.

While none of you have quite reached the point of rude, it's rapidly approaching.

Gently, people... Gently.

These are events that probably happened before we were born... No point in getting too heated.

Breathe

I know that it might seem to be an odd subject to get heated about, but we're talking about something that involves history, which is something of a passion of mine. Sy.Gunson makes all these claims about Nazi atomic weapons and then cites some bloke who thinks that it might have happened. That's not history, that's an unverified claim. You might as well claim that the Americans didn't land on the moon based on the word of the bloke I met down the pub. There is no evidence at all of a Nazi atomic bomb program. Not a single historian - not even David Irving - claims that the Nazis had access to a nuclear weapon. Claiming otherwise fails to acknowledge the huge amount of resources that the German would have had to have ploughed into that program, still less the paper trail that it would have left as well - none of which has ever been found.

hellobruce

Originally posted by Mists
Give that Beryllium is both a reflector and a moderator and even as a radiosource, depending on the type application you are dealing with and the U.S. had virtually none of it because we couldn't make the stuff

Bothe experiments with radiation from beryllium

Auer Gessellschaft GMBH sourced Beryllium from Spain and Southern Tyrol during the war and refined prodigious quantities. Later after the war, German nuclear scientists drafted into the Soviet nuclear project incorporated beryllium as a moderator into Soviet nuclear reactors - Pavel Oleynikov; German Scientists in the Soviet Atomic Project.

What a lot of nonsense -

Between 1942 and 1943, Brush Beryllium Corp. increased production by 45 percent, manufacturing nearly 1.3 million pounds (590,000kgs) of commercial beryllium alloys as US involvement in the war escalated.

You forgot to finish the quotation Bruce, that it was used in alloys for aircraft manufacture and the manufacture of parachute buckles...

We know for a fact that the Allies were so terrified of nuclear weapons on both Japanese and German cargo subs that, from mid 1944 onwards we were actively hunting as many as twenty of them using profoundly 'public' ASW resources ranging from full HK groups to other submarines.

Your source for that is....

why were we afraid of a non existent nuclear program migrating Eastwards on a non-existent, Abwehr controlled, U-Boat fleet?

We were not.[/quote]

We were,..

MAGIC intercepts of General Kawashima's requests for German Uranium for the Japanese Atomic Bomb began on 7 July 1943, followed by another request on 24 August 1943. When Germany asked for further explanation of exactly why Japan needed Uranium, Kawashima made a frank disclosure to the Germans in his signal of 15 November 1943 that Japan was developing an Atomic Bomb.

Germany signaled back that it would comply with requests immediately and from this point there was a considerable effort to track down and kill all blockade running submarines. One famous example was I-52 which the Allies knew was coming to collect 800kg of uranium oxide from Lorient and pulled out all stops to sink before it reached France.

There was such fear of U-864 reaching Japan that British submarines were posted off Bergen to sink her outbound. Whilst the wreck of U-864 is contaminated by mercury what is not disclosed is that uranium oxide was packed in steel flasks as an amalgam of mercury. The Norwegians are loathe to admit the existence of uranium in the wreckage however one early report of the wreck site disclosed samples from the seabed at the wreck site gave off radioactivity.

Hitler had tacnukes by mid 1944

No he did not - if he did why didnt he use them?


As the British revealed in their evidence against Maj Gen. Dornberger at Nuremberg, Hitler did have nukes and he did intend to use them on the V-2 rocket.

Hitler revealed his intentions with Romania’s Marshall Antonescu as disclosed by Hitler's Table Talks, a journal kept of his meeting throughout WW2. Von Ribbentrop, Hitler and Keitel met with Romanian Marshal Antonescu on 5 August 1944. Hitler told Antonescu of Germany’s atomic bomb. Antonescu later quoted Hitler when captured and questioned for war crimes. Antonescu said Hitler described Germany’s latest work on...

“...new explosives, whose development was already advanced to the experimental stage
Hitler confided his view that the jump from modern explosives to this one was the biggest since gunpowder.”
Hitler was aware that Antonescu was in talks with Opposition forces in Romania who had direct contact with London. Hitler wanted London to learn of this capability.

“Then Hitler explained the difficulty with all new weapons was the same. He had ordered therefore that no new weapon was to be employed until Germany had herself developed measures counter to it. For this reason Hitler explained, a new type of mine they had developed could still not be employed. The Fuhrer added Germany had four secret weapons. Of these the V-1 flying bomb and the V-2 rocket were only two. He said Another of these weapons for example, has such colossal force that all human life is destroyed within three to four kilometres of the point of impact.

Hitler however was also relayed a threat by Churchill through Antonescu to retaliate any use of Atomic weapons against UK soil with the RAF dropping Anthrax spores all across Germany.

Are you suggesting Bruce that I made up Hitler's table talks?

By 1945, with armies on German soil, he did not use the 5-20 weapons he had because they couldn't contain the Allie

No, he did not use them as they never existed.

He acted with restraint. We didn't.

Now we know you are just trolling - claiming Hitler acted with restraint!


Nobody least of all me is claiming Hitler was any kind of saint, he was however intimidated by threats of poison gas attack from the Soviets and Anthrax attack by Churchill.

reply to post by sy.gunson


I'm sorry, but your own quotes refute your own argument. If Hitler refused to use new weapons until Germany had a means to counter them, why did he use the supersonic V2, which the Germans could not counter?

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

I see. So you have two people who claim to have seen things but not a single iota of actual proof. Is there any evidence for any of these so-called fifteen nuclear bombs? Is there a single solitary picture of this so-called underground heavy water factory? Anything?
I thought not.

I've gone through `Most Secret War` by R.V. Jones - which you seem to have used for your pictures of German radar systems. The chapter `Nuclear Energy` is open in front of me now. Jones states that although there was evidence of a partially-built nuclear pile in Hechingen when it was captured, along with a vast number of documents, there was no sign at all of a Nazi nuclear bomb. In any way, shape or form. Nor was there mention of a bomb in the documents.

Finally, Jones makes a good point when he refers to Speer's book 'Inside the Third Reich'. Speer states, very clearly, that if Hitler had had access to the bomb he would have used it without a second thought.

No they were not just any two people. They were people personally involved in these projects.

Most of the Nazi nuclear scientists were drafted either into American, British, French, or Soviet nuclear projects after the war under terms of strict secrecy. Everyone in Germany for decades after the war could be subject to de-Nazification trials and incarceration for any utterances in support of the former Nazi cause so people learned to shut up about what they knew or only talk with closely trusted friends.

The only former Nazi nuclear scientists who ever talked were those who left Germany for Argentina like Dr Ronald Richter, or a handful who settled at Barriloche or Cordoba in Argentina. Schumann wrote an unpublished manuscript of his wartime work cited by Karlshe in his 2005 book and even wrote an industry article in France discussing the German Atomic bomb.

Then there is also the report of NAVTECHMISEU US Naval Intelligence; “Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb” dated 19 August 1945, parts of which have never been released and remain classified.

So if you have read widely and never come across mention of it I would suggest you have intentionally only read that which confirms your own prejudices or were too scared to challenge your own beliefs.

As for this underground factory you have never heard of, try pulling the cotton wool out of your ears...

Located near Ohrdruf, Thuringia was located the S-III Führer headquarters. Constructed by approximately 15- to 18,000 inmates of the nearby Ohrdruf, Espenfeld and Crawinkel concentration camps, from autumn 1944 to spring 1945, was a tunnel system over 1,5 miles in length.

Ohrdruf was reached by General Patton about April 11, 1945. Colonel R. Allen accompanying him described the installations extensively in his book.¹

"The underground installations were amazing. They were literally subterranean towns. There were four in and around Ohrdruf: one near the horror camp, one under the Schloss, and two west of the town. Others were reported in near-by villages. None were natural caves or mines. All were man-made military installations. The horror camp had provided the labour. An interesting feature of the construction was the absence of any spoil. It had been carefully scattered in hills miles away. The only communication shelter, which is known, is a two floor deep shelter, with the code "AMT 10".

Over 50 feet underground, the installations consisted of two and three stories several miles in length and extending like the spokes of a wheel. The entire hull structure was of massive reinforced concrete. Purpose of the installations was to house the High Command after it was bombed out of Berlin. This places also had paneled and carpeted offices, scores of large work and store rooms, tiled bathrooms with bath tubs and showers, flush toilets, electrically equipped kitchens, decorated dining rooms and mess halls, giant refrigerators, extensive sleeping quarters, recreation rooms, separate bars for officers and enlisted personnel, a moving picture theatre, and air-conditioning and sewage systems".

Sources and Reference Material.

a. The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW, High Command) and Luftwaffe war diaries and all copies of them for the period March 1945 have disappeared and are suspected to be in American keeping.

b. On April 7, 1945, the United States Atomic Energy Commission inspected various underground workings at Ohrdruf, and removed technical equipment before dynamiting surface entrances. The US authorities have classified all 1945 documents relating to Ohrdruf for a minimum period of 100 years.

c. Fortunately for researchers, in 1962 a quasi-judicial tribunal sat at Arnstadt in the then DDR, to take depositions from local residents for an enquiry entitled "Befragung von Buergern zu Ereignissen zur oertlichen Geschichte". The enquiry was principally interested in what went on at the Ohrdruf Truppenuebungsplatz (TUP) in the latter years of the war. The depositions became common property in 1989 upon the reunification of Germany and may be viewed at Arnstadt town hall.

Col Robert S Allen, a Staff officer with General Patton's Third Army described in his book¹ a completed underground reinforced-concrete metropolis 50 feet down "to house the High Command". It was on two or three levels and consisted of galleries several miles in length and "extending like the spokes of a wheel." The location of Hitler's Führer headquarters was not stated and Amt 10 was described misleadingly as "a two-floor deep concrete shelter."

If the structure was built like a wheel, the Führer headquarters would logically be at the hub, and Amt 10 was at the hub. Allen's description of Amt 10 as having two floors on April 1945 conflicts with the evidence of two persons who worked there: one hinted that there were more than two floors, the other testified there were three. The latter witness also stated that Amt 10 was two great bunkers of the same size, each of three floors, but not connected except by underground piping. Each bunker was guarded on each level by an SS sentry and passes for each entrance were not common to both. The most likely explanation is that the second bunker was constructed in 1944 at the same time as a third level was added to the first Amt 10 bunker as the Führer-suite.

As regards the second bunker, a witness stated that in 1944 there was an installation below the Ohrdruf Truppenuebungsplatz which created an electro-magnetic field capable of stopping the engines of a conventional aircraft at seven miles. During the war, the Allies never photographed Ohrdruf from the air, nor bombed it, even though their spies must have assured them it was crawling with SS and scientific groups. A German electro-magnetic field which interfered with their aircraft at altitudes of up to seven miles is admitted by a 1945 United States Air Force Intelligence document. The USAF suspected that it was a device to bring down their bombers, but it obviously had some other purpose, or it would have been operating in a bunker underneath Berlin.

Many Arnstadt witnesses described occasions when electrical equipment and automobile engines cut out. They always knew when this was about to happen, for the ship's diesel engine at Amt 10 would smoke. A diesel motor is not affected by an electro-magnetic field. In 1980, Russians scientists were still able to measure the field on their equipment, but they were never able to identify the source.

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

I'm sorry, but your own quotes refute your own argument. If Hitler refused to use new weapons until Germany had a means to counter them, why did he use the supersonic V2, which the Germans could not counter?

Not at all...

The counter to V-2 rockets armed either with nerve gas or atomic warheads was British retaliation with Anthrax.

I'm saddened that this is the best reply you can offer.

I'd hoped for a more intelligent debate.

reply to post by sy.gunson


You've quoted a huge chunk of text from a site of dubious authenticity which seems to have an obsession with wolves and which has pictures of Nazi flying saucers.

......

Ooookay. If you seriously think that such a site constitutes a serious research tool then go ahead! I've got a bridge in New York that I want you to buy as well.

sy.gunson

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

I'm sorry, but your own quotes refute your own argument. If Hitler refused to use new weapons until Germany had a means to counter them, why did he use the supersonic V2, which the Germans could not counter?

Not at all...

The counter to V-2 rockets armed either with nerve gas or atomic warheads was British retaliation with Anthrax.

I'm saddened that this is the best reply you can offer.

I'd hoped for a more intelligent debate.

Your total inability to be polite is not winning you any friends. Your ability to move the goalposts is to be admired. There was never any intention to place nerve gas in the V2. Neither was there any intention to place atomic warheads. The warhead capacity of a V2 was one tonne. Far too small for an atomic bomb.

I've been following this thread and it has been interesting and a bit out there I think. One thing I can say is Hitler would not have hesitated to use nuclear weapons if he had access to them in my opinion, especially towards the end of the war when it became clear Germany could not win. The man was a megalomaniac homicidal psychopath responsible for the destruction of millions and millions of human beings. Experiences in WWI left him with a very low regard for human life which is very clear in his treatment of both enemies and colleagues alike, which were swiftly dispatched if they were any kind of threat to his power.
I think it is clear the Nazis had no nuclear weapons because if they did they would have used them to try to win, obviously.

History can be a difficult subject with regard to accurate and credible sources and many historians argue with each other about sources and what they think is likely to have happened in the past. We can't go back and see for ourselves what really happened all we have are the sources and how reliable we judge them to be. Too much weight cannot be given to any single source it must be backed up from other places to become credible, and even then the context and who and why must be considered.

Which leads me to the Nazis. As I'm sure most of you are aware there is a huge amount of material about the Nazis and a lot of it is not credible at all and is basically just made up garbage. You really have to be careful about sources with the Nazis and think carefully about where it came from and if it really has any basis in fact at all. This is not an easy task and many professional historians argue about the Nazis and what happened in WWII all the time. But I think most respected historians on the subject would agree the Nazis had no operational nuclear weapons. Now I'm sure you could dig up a dubious source which would say just about anything about the Nazis, they had flying saucers, they had nukes, they had atomic planes, they built a secret base in the centre of the Earth and on and on it goes.

sy.gunson

alldaylong

sy.gunson

alldaylong
reply to post by williamjpellas

 

The technical ability of Nazi Germany is over blown.
They couldn't manage to invade Britain. Their air force was blown out of the sky. In his frustration Hitler turned East to Russia. That was the beginning of the end for The Nazi's

One technical achievement that is overlooked by historians is the development and construction by Britain of the floating "Mulberry Harbours"
Without those harbours the D Day landings on Normandy beaches could never have taken place. I regard the Mulberry Harbours along with the development of The A Bomb as the greatest achievements of WW II

The Battle of Britain failed in part because of Ernst Udet who overruled efforts by more intelligent Luftwaffe officers who wanted a strategic bomber ("Ural Bomber") and for example demanded the He-177 be capable of use as a dive bomber. It was Udet who dictated that the Luftwaffe be developed as a tactical air support wing of the Army, rather than a force capable of exerting air superiority over large distances.

To be fair if tables were turned and Spitfires or Hurricanes attempted to protect British bombers over the Continent they would arrive at the same shambles.

Goering's leadership was pathetic and flawed. He directed just one raid against a radar tower and gave up after actually destroying a valuable asset. Had the Luftwaffe either persisted in attacking radar stations or against RAF airbases they would have broken the British, but always on the verge of success Goering changed direction and much to the relief of Churchill.

Since you mention the Mulberry harbour my father was at Arromanches on LCH-187 on 6th june 1944 and yes there were amazing Allied technological achievements, but as compared with Ballistic missiles or swept wing Jet fighters they were not stupendous breakthrough technologies. The British tended to design everything by committees, whilst the germans empowered talented designers just to get on with it.

The Germans failed in how they applied or failed to apply their technological advantages.

Your assessment of The Battle Of Britain can be explained in one word. Rubbish.

www.airforcemag.com...

Sad that you have such a limited grasp of the English language. I had hoped you would know enough that you could rebut my arguments in your own words.

I don't waste my time and energy in replying at length to comments that are so far off the mark , they should be dispatched to the waste paper bin.

Apparently my two polite suggestions have been ignored by some herein...

Fine.

The next bit of snarky rudeness will be removed, and the member possibly post banned. Third and last time, guys.

reply to post by seagull



Simon, of the possible areas of interest you have posted to this point, the one about which I know the least---next to nothing, really---is the "76 Zentner Bomb". Could you possibly give a brief summary of the nature of this weapon, ie, was it a uranium bomb, or something else, was it ever completed, was it tested, etc? I would also be interested to learn the identities of the top German scientists involved in its R&D, if you have that information. And of course, any sources you might have for the 76 Zentner project are much appreciated. Thanks again!

reply to post by williamjpellas


A quick google search for the '76 Zentner bomb' reveals a fascinating - and short - group of results. One is on a conspiracy site that involves mention of the Illuminati. Another is the Freeper site, which is a bit worrying. Then there's a link to Pravda, which has gone a bit Sunday Sport of late, and then another link to another Illuminati site. I'm starting to sense a bit of a trend here.
The interesting one is ww2incolor.com, because there's a bloke in that thread from New Zealand who makes exactly the same points as Sy.gunson. Hmmmmm.............

reply to post by AngryCymraeg



As you are well aware, cymraeg, there have been quite a lot of perfectly legitimate references posted in this thread. I am just beginning to study the "76 Zentner Bomb" and if it turns out to be a red herring, hoax, or historical dead end, whatever. Much, though not all, of the available information about the various WWII German atomic weapons programs is new to me and so I am interested in exploring every lead as far as it legitimately goes. I note, and hope others here do, too, that your immediate response to basically everything that Gunson has posted here is the straw man: that is, you almost invariably attempt to dismiss him by (usually false) association with this or that obviously fringe or silly conspiracy site.


I note too that you have little to nothing to say about the numerous perfectly legitimate historical sources that he has posted in this thread. What about the Zinsser Affadavit, or the eyewitness testimonies about end of war German bomb testing that are found on YouTube, or the Monsanto Report, or Rainer Karlsch and Heiko Petermann's work, or the MAGIC intercept quoted at the beginning of this thread, or the Mark Walker - Karlsch piece from Physics World, or the KGB document(s) quoted by Karlsch regarding Heisenberg and the Harnack Haus Conference, or the various documents from US Army and Navy wartime intelligence? Pretty hard to dismiss all of that, along with other period documentation, as coming from the lunatic fringe. We may argue about the implications of the available documentation, but merely attempting to dismiss Gunson's theories without dealing with the evidence---wherever it may lead in the end---to my mind is just lazy mockery. You're a bright guy and I believe you can do better than much of what you're posted so far.

The bit about some kind of electromagnetic weapon being used against Allied bombers was interesting. Tesla apparently proposed a similar idea at the outset of American involvement in WWII as a means of defending the continental US. It is also well-established that the Japanese were pursuing a similar idea as a defense against B-29 attacks, but were never able to develop it to the point at which it was a practical weapon. According to a brief mention in Robert Wilcox's book, Japan's Secret War, Japanese lab experiments in what we would today call "directed energy weapons" succeeded in killing monkeys, but the range of the weapon was too short and the goal was to stop airplane engines, anyway, not necessarily kill people or what have you. According to some soures, Imperial Germany did some research into a similar concept as far back as World War I.

RAINER KARLSCH author of Hitler's bomb vs BERNHARD FULDA Lecturer in 20th Century German history at Cambridge University.

Fresh claims that Hitler created an atomic bomb in the last months of the Second World War have been denounced by some historians.

The right term to use is 'dirty bomb'. What the Germans did was to use enriched nuclear material with conventional explosives and test that out, and they might have been surprised by the lethal effect of that, but that is not what we should consider being an atomic bomb.

However, Karlsch denies it was a dirty bomb. He says it was actually a hybrid bomb of fission and fusion.
But even this has been attacked by German physicist Michael Schaaf, the author of another book about nazi nuclear experiments.

there wasn't kind of half a dozen or a dozen dirty bombs that the Germans kept somewhere in their weaponry and simply failed to use, that's just rubbish.

www.abc.net.au...

Karlsch seems to have few people in the field who agree with him, neither historians or physicists.