Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

reply to post by sy.gunson


That is the biggest load of honk I have ever read. Why on earth would they negotiate with representatives of GE instead of people from the FO/State Department? And why would Keitel send telegrams to Monty, who was no longer the Ground Force commander and who was merely the leader of 21st Army Group? Why didn't Keitel (who was by all accounts a brainless sycophantic lackey of Hitler who would never have done anything like this without permission from Schickelgruber) send any telegrams to Ike, who actually had the power to halt troops on the German border? And can I point out that by January 1945 the German border had long since been breached by Allied soldiers.
One last thing that completes the demolition of your assemblage of incorrect facts. The Soviets did not dismiss a pro-Western government in Prague in January 1945 - because they were nowhere near the city at the time. Prague was liberated from the Nazis in May 1945.

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

That is the biggest load of honk I have ever read. Why on earth would they negotiate with representatives of GE instead of people from the FO/State Department? And why would Keitel send telegrams to Monty, who was no longer the Ground Force commander and who was merely the leader of 21st Army Group? Why didn't Keitel (who was by all accounts a brainless sycophantic lackey of Hitler who would never have done anything like this without permission from Schickelgruber) send any telegrams to Ike, who actually had the power to halt troops on the German border? And can I point out that by January 1945 the German border had long since been breached by Allied soldiers.
One last thing that completes the demolition of your assemblage of incorrect facts. The Soviets did not dismiss a pro-Western government in Prague in January 1945 - because they were nowhere near the city at the time. Prague was liberated from the Nazis in May 1945.

You ignorance of WW2 history Angry Welshman is legendary which is probably the reason nobody really cares very much what you think.

And can I point out that by January 1945 the German border had long since been breached by Allied soldiers.

...If you wish to embarrass yourself feel free. The western border barely moved for 6 months:


Frontline October 1944


Frontline March 1945


Absolutely correct that Keitel was a sycophantic lakey. He did what he was told by Hitler, precisely correct and Montgomery was therefore negotiating with Hitler through his proxy Keitel.



Why General Electric?
Because Lisbon was neutral in WW2.
Because throughout WW2 General Electric laundered money for the Nazis. Obviously you never heard of Carballoy?
Up to 1942 General Electric was a major donor for the Nazi party.

As early as 1904, GE began joining forces with major foreign "competitors" to carve up world markets for crucial goods and technologies. In that year GE reached agreement with AEG (Allgemeine Elektricitäts Gesellschaft). The following year GE established a relationship with Tokyo Electric. GE’s early alliance with German firms was only temporarily disrupted by World War I. GE acquired 16 percent of AEG stock and placed four of its officials on the AEG board. It also obtained a stake in Siemens, Germany’s other big electrical manufacturing company.

GE’s patent agreements and minority stock ownership with German and Japanese corporations protected the domestic market while gaining access to foreign markets. It was GE’s conspiracy with the German steel company Krupp that affected the U.S. war effort and dragged the company into a New York courtroom at the end of the war where the Company and its Directors were convicted of trading with the enemy. They got a slap with a wet bus ticket for their sentences yet their German counterparts stood trial at Nuremberg.

Both GE and Krupp had patents for tungsten carbide, a hard metal composition valued for its use in cutting dies and machining metal. Neither company’s patents were good enough to set up a monopoly. But jointly they could influence the world market.
Discussions between GE and Krupp began in April 1928. A GE representative asserted that his company’s willingness to enter new lines of business was dependent upon "the extent to which they can discourage competition." Eight months later they had an agreement which allowed GE the right to fix prices. GE set up a separate subsidiary, Carboloy, to handle the business.

If you read Maj General Dornberger's book "V-2" he claims that on 3 February 1943 Dr Hettlage told Dornberger that special V-2 commissioner Denkolb was going to privatise Peenemunde so that development costs could be amortised into production costs. Dornberger was told that production rights for the V-2 were being put out for tender to raise the capital needed to mass produce the V-2. Otherwise the V-2 project would be cancelled.

Later Dornberger learned that Allgemeine Elektricitäts Gesellschaft (AEG) had been the successful tenderer. AEG was 80% owned and controlled by GEC, through GEC subsidiary GEI and GEC President Gerard Swope raised a US$10m loan on Wall St in May 1943 through the National City Bank to fund the V-2 deal.

Funds were laundered through a deal in Brazil to Banco de Portugal and the Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland to set up the underground Mittlewerk V-2 factory employing Concentration Camp slave labour.

During November 1943, Gen. H. H. Arnold, Chief of Air Staff, directed and authorized emphasis on research, development, and procurement of guided missiles, as indicated by known German advances. Theodore von Kármán submitted proposal to Army Ordnance for developing long-range surface-to-surface missiles.

On January 1, 1944, at request of Army Ordnance, Cal Tech's rocket laboratory started research and development program on long-range missiles, called Project ORDCIT, which resulted in development of Private "A" and Corporal missiles.

Worse still were a couple of ironic twists. Through US Army Project ORDCIT the US taxpayers payed off the loan raised by GEC to fund V-2 production, in return for USA getting V-2 technology. Wernher von Braun was later hired by NASA and became intimate part of the entire transaction. Dornberger was later hired by USA too.

Who were key members of ORCIT?

They were German speaking mathematician Theodore von Karman and head of the Manhattan Project, physicist Arthur H Compton. Have you ever heard of the Marshall Plan to reconstruct Germany after the war?
The Marshall Plan was funded by Gold looted by the Nazis from the rest of Europe laundered by GE through Switzerland and Lisbon.

So until you have done any research and actually know what you are talking about Welshman yours is just an uninformed opinion.

reply to post by sy.gunson


Nice maps, but I'd like to point out that the German city of Aachen fell in October 1944, which enraged Hitler. And the German border was also fortified - that's where the Siegfried Line or WestWall was, which the Germans defended. I'm not denying the delay but I am saying that the border had been breached in October. That's a point where we can argue all we like about semantics.
Now let's get to the other.... information you have so generously provided us with. The Marshall Plan was funded with $15 billion of US Government money. I did look on the web about your claims, but I was unable to verify it in any way, other than on utterly ridiculous websites. So let's ignore that bit.
Then there was the fascinating stuff about GE. I did look around for this but I noted that this brought up a link to Rense.com, which is hardly a reliable site. So let's ignore that bit as well. Thanks for the laugh though.
But that in turn brings up what you have ignored. There's the fact that Monty didn't have the power to order a freeze in place on the German border, which I note that you have ignored. Oh and there's the fact that you failed to acknowledge my statement about Prague. Slipped your mind did it?

Politely, gentlemen.

Thanks.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Not so fast, Angry Welshman / Cambrian. Mr. Gunson is on very solid ground when he speaks of dirty dealing by various multinational corporations during WWII. One of the biggest reasons that Germany's extermination of Jews and what it saw as other non-desireables was so efficient was that said extermination was actually "computerized"---or rather, computerized to the extent that the then-extant analog technology could make it. IBM had developed the "Hollerith (sp?) Machine" just prior to the start of the war and had either done so in concert with a German subsidiary or partner company, or was selling it under license through that company, or both. (Sorry, it's been too long since I read the book I am referencing for me to remember this detail exactly. The book is IBM and The Holocaust by Edwin Black. Link: www.ibmandtheholocaust.com... )


Although I am generally skeptical about this or that "conspiracy theory", I am even-handed and experienced enough to realize that not all "conspiracy theories" can be readily dismissed. Some of them have turned out to be true, and the so-called "established history" false. In my view, there is no such thing, really, as either conspiracy theories or---infinitely worse---"revisionist history", but rather only history that is more accurate and comprehensive or less accurate and comprehensive. I had not previously heard about Mr. Gunson's GE-as-proxy-negotiator-for-the-Allies theory, but he is 100% correct to note that both von Braun and Dornberger, among a number of others, quietly became ahem, "Americans" in the aftermath of the War. Also, there are a number of other instances during the War that are well-documented in which international business contacts were used for diplomacy. The Bank for International Settlements was the intermediary, for example, for at least one diplomatic / surrender feeler sent out by Japan to the US in 1945.


I don't know if I can buy Gunson's "Hitler escaping the noose theory" just yet, BUT: in exchange for, say, foregoing an end of war gotterdamerung against, perhaps, London and/or Allied armies in the field in western Europe, and as a means of sticking it to their erstwhile "ally", the USSR, could there have been some tacit or even overt "understandings" between the nascent West German government and the US and Britain? Was the Cold War already going on even as WWII wound down? Stranger things have turned out to be true. To be sure, Stalin was a paranoid megalomaniac as well as, to my mind, a far worse monster than Hitler ever dreamed of being. But was he actually correct when he suspected the US and Britain of double-dealing behind his back? The main flaw to this line of thinking is that Roosevelt was certainly much more sympathetic to Marxism than was Churchill, but then again it was Roosevelt's successor Truman who would have been in charge when much of the supposed deal making was done. I don't think Truman, though a Democrat, was anywhere near as big a leftist as was Roosevelt. Etc and so forth.

hellobruce

sy.gunson
Himmler's SS still controlled a nuclear arsenal and he disagreed with Hitler wanting to use nuclear weapons decisively. That is why Himmler btrayed the secret agreement between Keitel and Montgomery.

I love how the negationists like to claim Germany had nuclear weapons but did not want to use them.... with no evidence to back their silly claims up at all!

I never said they did not want to...

There is a wreck of a six engined German Junkers aircraft off the seabed of Maine USA and it has been there since 18 September 1944. They very much wanted to attack new York and definitely tried. There was a last minute effort to attack New York with Rheinbote missiles fired from rails mounted on the deck guns of U-boats.

Hitler intended a campaign in October 1944 but before it happened both USA and the British warned Hitler of consequences. USA threatened to bomb Dresden with the Atomic Bomb. Churchill warned Hitler through Antonescu that the RAF would unleash Anthrax all across Germany. Anthrax would have starved Germany into submission in just 2 weeks.

That is what finally brought Hitler to negotiate with the western Allies and you note that the Allied advance from France halted in October and did not resume until April 1945.

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by williamjpellas

 

The Oslo Report is extremely well-known and did NOT mention an Axis atomic bomb project.

The Oslo letter was received in November 1939.

The German Atomic bomb project was only begun in late 1939 in strict secrecy. Seimens only became involved with the Atomic bomb project through the Reichs Forschungsrat (RFR) in June 1942.

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

One last thing that completes the demolition of your assemblage of incorrect facts. The Soviets did not dismiss a pro-Western government in Prague in January 1945 - because they were nowhere near the city at the time. Prague was liberated from the Nazis in May 1945.

I never mentioned Prague...

Falin wrote that in January 1945 after the Soviets removed a pro-Western pro-capitalist interim Government at Praga, in Warsaw to favour a pro communist government, there occurred an exchange of seven telegrams between Keitel and Montgomery discussing collaboration by the Anglo-Americans against the Soviets.

I mentioned Praga in Warsaw.

alldaylong
reply to post by williamjpellas

 

The technical ability of Nazi Germany is over blown.
They couldn't manage to invade Britain. Their air force was blown out of the sky. In his frustration Hitler turned East to Russia. That was the beginning of the end for The Nazi's

One technical achievement that is overlooked by historians is the development and construction by Britain of the floating "Mulberry Harbours"
Without those harbours the D Day landings on Normandy beaches could never have taken place. I regard the Mulberry Harbours along with the development of The A Bomb as the greatest achievements of WW II

The Battle of Britain failed in part because of Ernst Udet who overruled efforts by more intelligent Luftwaffe officers who wanted a strategic bomber ("Ural Bomber") and for example demanded the He-177 be capable of use as a dive bomber. It was Udet who dictated that the Luftwaffe be developed as a tactical air support wing of the Army, rather than a force capable of exerting air superiority over large distances.

To be fair if tables were turned and Spitfires or Hurricanes attempted to protect British bombers over the Continent they would arrive at the same shambles.

Goering's leadership was pathetic and flawed. He directed just one raid against a radar tower and gave up after actually destroying a valuable asset. Had the Luftwaffe either persisted in attacking radar stations or against RAF airbases they would have broken the British, but always on the verge of success Goering changed direction and much to the relief of Churchill.

Since you mention the Mulberry harbour my father was at Arromanches on LCH-187 on 6th june 1944 and yes there were amazing Allied technological achievements, but as compared with Ballistic missiles or swept wing Jet fighters they were not stupendous breakthrough technologies. The British tended to design everything by committees, whilst the germans empowered talented designers just to get on with it.

The Germans failed in how they applied or failed to apply their technological advantages.

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

Nice maps, but I'd like to point out that the German city of Aachen fell in October 1944, which enraged Hitler. And the German border was also fortified - that's where the Siegfried Line or WestWall was, which the Germans defended. I'm not denying the delay but I am saying that the border had been breached in October. That's a point where we can argue all we like about semantics.
Now let's get to the other.... information you have so generously provided us with. The Marshall Plan was funded with $15 billion of US Government money. I did look on the web about your claims, but I was unable to verify it in any way, other than on utterly ridiculous websites. So let's ignore that bit.
Then there was the fascinating stuff about GE. I did look around for this but I noted that this brought up a link to Rense.com, which is hardly a reliable site. So let's ignore that bit as well. Thanks for the laugh though.
But that in turn brings up what you have ignored. There's the fact that Monty didn't have the power to order a freeze in place on the German border, which I note that you have ignored. Oh and there's the fact that you failed to acknowledge my statement about Prague. Slipped your mind did it?

It's not semantics... for 6 months Anglo American Allies halted on Germany's western front.

No you're wrong about the Marshall plan. Looted European Gold was funneled back into redevelopment of Germany and not repatriated to France Belgium or Czechoslovakia.

I am well familiar with your selective acknowledgement of only the facts that suit you. that is why your opinions are so lightweight and unreliable.

williamjpellas
Okay, a few questions for Mr. Gunson after reading through most of this thread.

abridged

BTW, regarding your comment that, at the outset of the war, the Allies wanted to set Germany and the USSR against one another, that is certainly true of Churchill. But there is a great deal of evidence that this was NOT true of FDR, who as a committed Keynesian socialist and anti-colonialist was very definitely sympatico with Stalin, whether he or the rest of the American left admitted this publicly or not. Our friend Robert Wilcox has been digging around in this area of US history and has found some highly incriminating information about significant penetration of the US federal government before and during WWII by Soviet moles and sympathizers. FDR would of course go on to give half the world to Stalin at Yalta, totally inexcusable to my mind even if we acknowledge Roosevelt's terrible physical condition and impending death by the time he got to Yalta.

In reference to Germany and USSR, at the start of the war after the invasion of Poland but before the Invasion of France, I am talking March-April 1940 here, Sumner Welles engaged in shuttle diplomacy trying to unite the Anglo French and Italians to support Hitler against the Soviets to create a "new world order."

France and Britain were feverishly trying to tempt Mussolini to side with them as Italy had done in the First World War. Mussolini played along with the game, but always intended to favour Germany.

The new world order proposed by Sumner Welles would limit the sovereignty of less powerful states and acknowledge the supremacy of powerful industrial states and award them spheres of influence. It was in effect a proposal to carve up Europe and Russia as colonial possessions between Germany, Italy, France and England.

France and Britain however had their own war going with the Soviets pumping arms, munitions aircraft and mercenaries into Finland through a rail link from Narvik. This threatened Hitler because any alliance between Britain and France with Finland threatened to cut off Germany from its iron ore supplies in northern Finland, so Hitler invaded Norway which endeared him further to Stalin.

It was only later in the war after the invasion of Russia that England brokered an alliance with Russia. The Alliance of powers against the facist Axis was brokered at a 1942 conference in San Francisco which was the United Nations Alliance later to become the formal United Nations.

sy.gunson


It's not semantics... for 6 months Anglo American Allies halted on Germany's western front.

No you're wrong about the Marshall plan. Looted European Gold was funneled back into redevelopment of Germany and not repatriated to France Belgium or Czechoslovakia.

I am well familiar with your selective acknowledgement of only the facts that suit you. that is why your opinions are so lightweight and unreliable.

It is semantics, because Germany's Western border contained the WestWall or Siegfried Line and the Allies had to fight their way through it! And even if they had made some sort of arrangement (for which there is no proof as Keitel contacting Monty was useless as he wasn't Ike) then a) they wouldn't have trusted Hitler in the least as the man broke every agreement he ever made and b) they would have seen proof of a) by the Battle of the Bulge, which broke out in December and which would have instantly negated any such agreement - in the highly unlikely event of it having been made. Unless you can provide verifiable proof of any such agreement we must tip this theory into the dustbin of history, where it belongs.
I misread your earlier post and I thought that it was Prague and not Praga. Apologies.
However, I take great exception to your claim of there being a pro-Western Government there. The Polish Government in Exile never returned to Warsaw after what remained of the city was liberated, as the Soviets installed their own puppet Government there, which had already been in place in Lublin since the previous year.
As for the Marshall Plan information I am not sure where you are getting this stuff from. The Marshall Plan was too large to be funded purely from looted Nazi gold and I'd also like to point out that France and Belgium were recipients of Marshall Plan aid. As for Czechoslovakia, they didn't get any Marshall Plan aid because the Soviets ordered them to turn it down.
Two last things. First, please keep your insults to a minimum as the Mods are watching this page. Second, we have strayed from the topic, which is that the Nazis had nukes. Outside the deluded ravings of Metapedia there is absolutely no proof of this.

sy.gunson

alldaylong
reply to post by williamjpellas

 

The technical ability of Nazi Germany is over blown.
They couldn't manage to invade Britain. Their air force was blown out of the sky. In his frustration Hitler turned East to Russia. That was the beginning of the end for The Nazi's

One technical achievement that is overlooked by historians is the development and construction by Britain of the floating "Mulberry Harbours"
Without those harbours the D Day landings on Normandy beaches could never have taken place. I regard the Mulberry Harbours along with the development of The A Bomb as the greatest achievements of WW II

The Battle of Britain failed in part because of Ernst Udet who overruled efforts by more intelligent Luftwaffe officers who wanted a strategic bomber ("Ural Bomber") and for example demanded the He-177 be capable of use as a dive bomber. It was Udet who dictated that the Luftwaffe be developed as a tactical air support wing of the Army, rather than a force capable of exerting air superiority over large distances.

To be fair if tables were turned and Spitfires or Hurricanes attempted to protect British bombers over the Continent they would arrive at the same shambles.

Goering's leadership was pathetic and flawed. He directed just one raid against a radar tower and gave up after actually destroying a valuable asset. Had the Luftwaffe either persisted in attacking radar stations or against RAF airbases they would have broken the British, but always on the verge of success Goering changed direction and much to the relief of Churchill.

Since you mention the Mulberry harbour my father was at Arromanches on LCH-187 on 6th june 1944 and yes there were amazing Allied technological achievements, but as compared with Ballistic missiles or swept wing Jet fighters they were not stupendous breakthrough technologies. The British tended to design everything by committees, whilst the germans empowered talented designers just to get on with it.

The Germans failed in how they applied or failed to apply their technological advantages.

Your assessment of The Battle Of Britain can be explained in one word. Rubbish.

www.airforcemag.com...

sy.gunson
yes there were amazing Allied technological achievements, but as compared with Ballistic missiles or swept wing Jet fighters they were not stupendous breakthrough technologies.

Garbage. You totally ignore radar, which helped win the battle of Britain and slowed the U boats. You also ignore the allied superiority in Heavy bombers, something Germany was unable to build. You ignore the allied superiority in aircraft, you ignore allied superiority in aircraft carriers, the allies had over 100, Germany had zero... the allies had superior fuel, logistics, the allies had much better SONAR and antisubmarine weapons, the allies developed the proximity fuse, the allies developed synthetic rubber, the allies had much better code breaking teams, even in Penicillin production the allies produced by June 1945, over 646 billion units per year, Germany very little. Then there were the atomic bombs, the allies had tested 1, dropped 2 on enemy targets and were producing them at the rate of about 1 a month, Germany was nowhere near making a atomic bomb.

williamjpellas
Just weighing in quickly here....


As Mr. Gunson noted upthread, I was able to find, touch, read, and photograph the MAGIC intercept in question in this thread when I visited the US National Archives in College Park, MD, in the Fall of 2012. The document absolutely exists. The only question is, What does it mean? Did the Germans have some kind of limited but real nuclear weapons capability but not enough of them to turn the tide of the war? Was the Japanese officer making the report sincere in his belief that nuclear weapons had been used, but simply sincerely wrong? Note that there is no question whatosever that the Japanese officer did think that the Germans had successfully carried out a nuclear attack; this is proven beyond all doubt by his use of the highly specific Japanese term "GENSHAI HAKAI DAN", or "element bomb"---the Japanese term for an atomic bomb.


Earlier in the thread there was a discussion about the relative "crudity" of the American Little Boy bomb. Being an American myself, I feel compelled to jerk Simon's chain just a little bit on behalf of my native land!

While the Little Boy bomb was very inefficient and in truth (amazingly!) was actually closer to a fizzle than to a detonation when you consider how much of its highly enriched uranium fuel was actually wasted and how little really exploded, nevertheless---it worked. To be sure, it was not the most sophisticated device that existed on paper even during the war itself; Edward Teller, Enrico Fermi, and at least some German weapons scientists were already far along the road to boosted fission and even H-bomb theory. But it was the first bomb to be brought to industrial completion as a finished and practical weapon system. So, the historic American "brilliant amateurism" still had telling effect when all was said and done, even if it wasn't as "sexy" as some other approaches would have been---but those other approaches were never completed (or were they?!). Here I am reminded of some comments by German Army soldiers and engineers about the crudity of the Soviet T-34 tank. To be sure, the T-34, in many ways, WAS crude in comparison with some German machines. But guess who won the war? General Guderian also called the T-34 "the best tank in the world in any army up til 1943", so "crude" and "effective" sometimes go together. Technological sophistication does not always equal practical effect. Just sayin'.

edit on 5-12-2013 by williamjpellas because: correcting typo

edit on 5-12-2013 by williamjpellas because: correction

William you can jerk my chain if you wish.... since I started this thread I have had correspondence from Dirk Finkemeier and an English friend of his who assert Little Boy was actually a German device located by the US 9th Army near Goslar.

When I investigated this claim further many facts about the Manhattan project seemed to line up to corroborate this.

For example the extremely low enrichment rate of the K-25 porous barrier plant at Oak Ridge and the panic in correspondence between Manhattan Project leaders and the US Government whether Oak Ridge could meet targets?

Also the fact that Until Feb 1945 when the Oak Ridge X-10 graphite pile spent fuel alerted Manhattan project to the high levels of Plutonium 240, the plan was to create two types of plutonium weapons, Fat Man and Thin Man. Plutonium 240 suddenly rendered Thin Man unviable so where did Little Boy suddenly appear from?

Where did 64kg of HEU suddenly materialise from?

The Germans had banks of centrifuges in operation at Kandern, Celle and Espelkamp. The centrifuge is 30 times faster and 30 times more energy efficient than American methods employed at Oak Ridge.

In fact the Alpha CAULTRONS used at Oak Ridge were based on German Betatrons invented by Seimens and the patent rights to these were sold to the General Electric Laboratory at Chicago University the day before Pearl Harbour.

Germany had Betatrons enriching Uranium throughout the war from the very start, thus whatever Oak Ridge could do with CAULTRONS from 1942, Germany could do from 1939.

hellobruce

sy.gunson
yes there were amazing Allied technological achievements, but as compared with Ballistic missiles or swept wing Jet fighters they were not stupendous breakthrough technologies.

Garbage. You totally ignore radar, which helped win the battle of Britain and slowed the U boats. You also ignore the allied superiority in Heavy bombers, something Germany was unable to build. You ignore the allied superiority in aircraft, you ignore allied superiority in aircraft carriers, the allies had over 100, Germany had zero... the allies had superior fuel, logistics, the allies had much better SONAR and antisubmarine weapons, the allies developed the proximity fuse, the allies developed synthetic rubber, the allies had much better code breaking teams, even in Penicillin production the allies produced by June 1945, over 646 billion units per year, Germany very little. Then there were the atomic bombs, the allies had tested 1, dropped 2 on enemy targets and were producing them at the rate of about 1 a month, Germany was nowhere near making a atomic bomb.

No I don't.

Germany invented several forms of highly advanced radar:









Germany was producing Atomic weapons too. This is the June 1945 report of German technology transfer to Japan. There was also an earlier volume of this report in August 1944 and a later summary in September 1945:



This was its reference to the German Atomic bomb:



This and the 1944 Stockholm signal about the German Uranium atom smashing warhead are pedigree sources of intelligence. Most of what the Allies knew about the German atomic bomb came from MAGIC decrypts of diplomatic signals from Berlin.

alldaylong

sy.gunson

alldaylong
reply to post by williamjpellas

 

The technical ability of Nazi Germany is over blown.
They couldn't manage to invade Britain. Their air force was blown out of the sky. In his frustration Hitler turned East to Russia. That was the beginning of the end for The Nazi's

One technical achievement that is overlooked by historians is the development and construction by Britain of the floating "Mulberry Harbours"
Without those harbours the D Day landings on Normandy beaches could never have taken place. I regard the Mulberry Harbours along with the development of The A Bomb as the greatest achievements of WW II

The Battle of Britain failed in part because of Ernst Udet who overruled efforts by more intelligent Luftwaffe officers who wanted a strategic bomber ("Ural Bomber") and for example demanded the He-177 be capable of use as a dive bomber. It was Udet who dictated that the Luftwaffe be developed as a tactical air support wing of the Army, rather than a force capable of exerting air superiority over large distances.

To be fair if tables were turned and Spitfires or Hurricanes attempted to protect British bombers over the Continent they would arrive at the same shambles.

Goering's leadership was pathetic and flawed. He directed just one raid against a radar tower and gave up after actually destroying a valuable asset. Had the Luftwaffe either persisted in attacking radar stations or against RAF airbases they would have broken the British, but always on the verge of success Goering changed direction and much to the relief of Churchill.

Since you mention the Mulberry harbour my father was at Arromanches on LCH-187 on 6th june 1944 and yes there were amazing Allied technological achievements, but as compared with Ballistic missiles or swept wing Jet fighters they were not stupendous breakthrough technologies. The British tended to design everything by committees, whilst the germans empowered talented designers just to get on with it.

The Germans failed in how they applied or failed to apply their technological advantages.

Your assessment of The Battle Of Britain can be explained in one word. Rubbish.

www.airforcemag.com...

Sad that you have such a limited grasp of the English language. I had hoped you would know enough that you could rebut my arguments in your own words.

sy.gunson
Where did 64kg of HEU suddenly materialise from?

As of January 1945 on any given day about 85 percent of some 864 Alpha calutron tanks operated to produce 258 grams-9 ounces-of 10 percent enriched product; at the same time 36 Beta tanks converted the accumulated Alpha product to 204 grams-7.2 ounces-per day of 80 percent enriched U235, sufficient enrichment to make a bomb. James Bryant Conant calculated in his handwritten history notes on January 6 that a kilogram of U235 per day would mean one gun bomb every six weeks. It follows that the gun bomb required about 42 kilograms-92.6 pounds, about 2.8 critical masses-of U235. Without further improvement the calutrons alone could produce that much material in 6.8 months, and Conant noted after conferring with Groves that "it looks as if 40-45 kg . . . will be obtained by July 1." Ernest Lawrence's monumental effort had succeeded; every gram of U235 in the one Little Boy that should be ready by mid-1945 would pass at least once through his calutrons.

The Making of the Atomic Bomb page 601....

williamjpellas
reply to post by Brother Stormhammer

 

The ballistic missile option isn't available either...the A-4/V-2 was about the biggest rocket Germany could produce in any numbers, and its payload was about 1/4 that needed to carry a first generation nuclear warhead.


Not if the alleged-to-exist German bombs were of an altogether different, and smaller, design. I take it you have not looked at the schematic I posted of the Schumann-Trinks boosted fission / U233 bomb? This weapon would have been dramatically smaller and lighter than the US bombs produced by the Manhattan Project (also a lot smaller in terms of their explosive yield, though exactly how much smaller, I don't know). Another possibility is that the Germans could have mounted any number of "dirty bombs" on V-2s. So no, I do not believe that the idea of nuclear-armed V-2s can be dismissed out of hand, particularly not by referencing WWII American atomic bomb sizes and weights, as you are doing here.

Of course, it's one thing to have a design idea or schematic on paper, and it's another thing entirely to bring that design to completion and to have a practical means of delivering it on target. I have seen a couple of cryptic references to attempts by German scientists to detonate some kind of atomic bomb that utilized "light nuclei"---almost certainly some sort of boosted fission idea that included trititum and/or hydrogen and/or lithium deuteride---but I know of no airtight proof that they ever succeeded.

It is clear that some kind of weapons tests were carried out at Bug Isthmus and at Ohrdurf and that these involved some kind of effort at producing a nuclear blast, but whether any of these tests were the Schumann-Trinks design, I don't know. In short, I don't know if the S-T weapon would actually have worked had it been loaded with sufficient fissile material. I suspect that it would have, but I am not a physicist and I can't say for sure just by eyeballing and reading about it---although boosted fission is most definitely a valid and far more efficient approach to a bomb than the practical-but-larger-and-bulkier US method, which utilized a "nominal" or "natural" critical mass of uranium or plutonium. (Boosted fission significantly reduces the amount of fissile material needed to create a critical mass because it adds large numbers of neutrons from other substances in addition to the neutrons that are fissioning from the "bomb fuel" itself.) And to be sure, as you say, the Germans did not have anything analagous to the specially modified "Silverplate" B-29s used by the 509th Composite Group against Japan.

Unless you believe, as Simon does, that more Ju-390s were produced than the three that most historians argue actually came off the assembly lines. He thinks a handful of additional units were completed. The Ju-390 was certainly nowhere near as robust an airplane as the Superfortress, but it had an entirely different mission and it did have ultra-long range. With a small weapon of some kind, it could conceivably have hit an American East Coast city such as Boston or New York, though this was at the very outermost limits of any conceivable mission profile and so is unlikely. But again, a smaller and lighter weapon could certainly have been delivered by V-2s.

For those who have not kept up I opened this thread referring to a Japanese diplomatic signal decrypted by US Intelligence in late 1944. It referred to German development of a Uranium atom smashing warhead of devastating explosive force which weighed just 5kg.

William J Pellas kindly contacted me with photos of the actual archived document and thus began my contact with him.

Reference the Ju-390, Junkers were paid in June 1944 for the completion of seven Ju-390 airframes as confirmed by archives of the Luftwaffe Quartermaster general. The ju-390 was not suited to the role except in terms of range and payload capability. It had limited ceiling and was very slow.

The Germans intended the He-274 to become the Amerika bomber, but French workers stalled the aircraft's development. A number of He-177 A6 R1 and R2 prototypes and He-177 A7 aircraft were converted to He-277 pre-production aircraft. The He-177 A6 R2 prototype aircraft was converted with Jumo 213F engines to an extremely long range aircraft.

babybunnies
It's well known that the Nazis were working on a atom bomb. The allied attack (with huge help from Norwegian resistance) on their heavy water facility pretty much scuttled their entire plan. Most of the scientists that would have helped with the successful development of a Nazi nuclear bomb actually moved to the USA due to the Nazi persecution of the Jews, and ended up working on the American nuclear program instead. German scientists in the 1930's and 1940's were DECADES ahead of their counterparts both in the USA and the UK.

It's also been widely speculated that the Japanese successfully test detonated a nuclear device AFTER their Government surrendered to the allies, just to show that they could, in what is now a remote area of North Korea.

No the raid on Norsk Hydro made hardly a dent on German Deuterium production. The German atomic weapon was not dependent on development of a nuclear reactor either.

The Germans operated the following deuterium production plants:

# 1) Leuna plant south of Mersberg near Berlin (Harteck/Suess process - codename Stalin Organ)

# 2) Kiel Plant 4 km outside Kiel in hevily wooded area (possibly named Beck Plant)

# 3) Hamburg Plant (possibly the Geib Sulphide plant?)

# 4) Vemork (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 5) Saheim (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 6) Montecantini plant at Merano, Italy  (near Bolzano)

Don't take my word for it. You should read the so called G-Papers gathered by Allied scientific Intelligence ALSOS teams in Germany. These were Nazi scientific documents collected by Sammuel Goudschmit and archived by the American National Archives Records Administration (NARA). In Particular those by Dr Paul Harteck who led the Nazi Deuterium project would be most helpful. These include G-268 compiled by IG Farben staff, an early survey by Harteck in G-154, G-226 by Dr Hans Jensen and G-261 by Dr Harteck and Dr Hans Suess.