Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

Originally posted by Mists
Hitler didn't use his nuclear devices

He didn't use them as he didn't have any - duh

Since his entire aim was to again unite Europe as a nation rather than collective of city states,

his aim was to gain Lebensraum for Germany by invading inferior countries -

German demands for territorial revision went beyond merely regaining land lost under the Treaty of Versailles, and instead embraced calls for the German conquest and colonization of all Eastern Europe, regardless of whether the land in question had belonged to Germany before 1918 or no

Hitler did many things

Yes, we know how he started WW2, invaded many countries, we know about the holocaust etc.

early on in the war which the mad drunkard in England refused to acknowledge.

Wrong again, here you are showing your true colours - The whole world acknowledged that Germany started WW2,and invaded many countries.

Hitler didn't want England

Oh dear, you are wrong again....

Hitler issued Führer Directive No. 16, setting in motion preparations for a landing in Britain. He prefaced the order by stating: "As England, in spite of her hopeless military situation, still shows no signs of willingness to come to terms, I have decided to prepare, and if necessary to carry out, a landing operation against her. The aim of this operation is to eliminate the English Motherland as a base from which the war against Germany can be continued, and, if necessary, to occupy the country completely."[7]

Winning Winnie and Bomber Harris instead began a campaign of grotesque mass destruction

Oh dear, here you are having a whinge because the allies stood up to Germany and tried to stop them - which we can see was unacceptable to you! I love what you called Winston churchill - Winning Winnie, as he certainly helped win WW2!

And the result of their evil

Germany was defeated - something which you apparently hate. If Germany did not want to be attacked then they never should have invaded most of Europe.

Hitler wanted _none_ of this.

About the first true thing you have said - Hitler did not want Germany to be attacked!

Now you answer my questions:
1. Where are the 2000+ tons of missing Uranium and what about the hundred thousand barrels of waste found
in a German salt mine?

how about you provide a valid source for those claims....

2. Why did Germany need nuclear materials if she didn't have an active program?

Germany had a small scale programme.

3. Why the big ASW effort from '44>?

There was constant ASW performed by the allies, of course it improved as the war went on as the allies got better ships, ASW weapons and SONAR

From 1943-1945 radar equipped aircraft would account for the bulk of Allied kills against U-Boats.[22] Allied anti-submarine tactics developed to defend convoys (the Royal Navy's preferred method), aggressively hunt down U-boats (the U.S. Navy approach), and to divert vulnerable or valuable ships away from known U-boat concentrations. During the Second World War, the Allies developed a huge range of new technologies, weapons and tactics to counter the submarine danger.

It appears you are just a apologist for Hitler.

www.globalsecurity.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Mists
But ignorance is not evidence.

The ignorance is 100% on your part.
You have not produced one single piece of evidence other than your say-so.

The people who won the war were those who sponsored both a incompetent drunkard buffoon (who literally never failed to fail in any military post he held) a man on the edge of losing his estate. And those who pushed Hitler's buttons in trading industrial backing for attacks against the social democrats and the communists in Germany on the road to currency meltdown and war.

Read _Trading With The Enemy_ and realize that 'we' were shipping tons of Mexican oil and Philly ball bearings as well as other critical war materiel **to Germany**, indirectly via her South American banking connections, all the way up to at least 1943.

We were stabilizing world currency markets (effectively keeping the Reichsmark in the game as liquid currency) via the BIS all the way up to the end of the war.

We were also doing such things as influencing the nature of the war on Germany to the extent that when Eaker wanted to attack the Schweinfurt/Regensberg plants (again) he was told absolutely not to and when he did it anyway 'someone' informed the Luftwaffe who threw everything they had at the attacks, to include Stukas, He-111 and FW-200s.

When those attacks resulted in damage so severe that it impinged upon German war industry, the Swedish ball bearing consortia had it's 'U.S. branch' ship replacements until it could stand up additional capacity to reinfuse German industry.

'We' know this because an FW-190 buried it's nose in a B-17 and the BMW-801 engine had a U.S. marked bearings in it.

WWII was not intended to be 'won' by anyone. It was intended to knock Europe out of the nation state game forever and leave only two incumbents on the road to One World Government.

Along the way, they butchered MILLIONS of civilians and soldiers who did not have to die. Because the copper windings on a transformation/rectification heterodyne weighed on the order of 10-20 tons and were utterly irreplaceable, even in the 1940s. Melt those down in a big fire and industrial Germany goes dark. The war ends six weeks later.

EVERYONE who knows anything about strategic warfare knows this and the people in the 1940s were, ten times smarter than the sophist fools of today.

When you look at WWII, you look at the master plan to enslave and extinguish a people. Us.

Originally posted by Mists
When you look at WWII, you look at the master plan to enslave and extinguish a people. Us.

Another true thing you have said, Germany did have a master plan to try and enslave a people, but luckily for the world Germany failed.

Along the way, they butchered MILLIONS of civilians and soldiers who did not have to die

Germany certainly did, it is called the Holocaust and Operation Barbarossa.

reply to post by Mists


I'm not sure where to start in this farrago of untruths, but let's start off with something simple. X-Gerate wasn't a bomber interception device, it was a beam system for bombing.

reply to post by Mists


As for second rant, all I can say is that you have very.... unique... facts there. Oh and no proof.

Originally posted by Mists
There is not one reason why a nation that had effectively no nuclear weapons program would hide 2,000 tons of uranium ore upon her defeat. Nor have -or spare- several tons of key alloys and high end reactor equipment which they could send onto their one time ally.

Obviously they did have a nuclear weapons program. They just didn't succeed fast enough to get a usable weapon.

The Nazi's had plans to bomb the US and they were developing stealth bombers to deliver them they already developed a stealth jet fighter and had plans to scale them up to bombing platforms.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

channel.nationalgeographic.com...

Given Hitler did visit this region, very late in the war, for no apparent reason -other than- the weapons test and given that he went back to Berlin when the city was known to be undefendable, something happened.

The Fuhrer's day calender, as kept by Linge, is a part of the public record and quite precise. Just where "in this region very late in the war did he visit"?

The Fuhrer had told Speer he intended to die in Berlin after Sepp Dietrich's panzer army had to be removed from the Ardennes Offensive to shore up the crumbled Oder front. That was on January 12th as with no oil reserves not even any miracle weapon could save the Reich.

There was no 'weapons test' that sent him back to Berlin.

Just weighing in quickly here....


As Mr. Gunson noted upthread, I was able to find, touch, read, and photograph the MAGIC intercept in question in this thread when I visited the US National Archives in College Park, MD, in the Fall of 2012. The document absolutely exists. The only question is, What does it mean? Did the Germans have some kind of limited but real nuclear weapons capability but not enough of them to turn the tide of the war? Was the Japanese officer making the report sincere in his belief that nuclear weapons had been used, but simply sincerely wrong? Note that there is no question whatosever that the Japanese officer did think that the Germans had successfully carried out a nuclear attack; this is proven beyond all doubt by his use of the highly specific Japanese term "GENSHAI HAKAI DAN", or "element bomb"---the Japanese term for an atomic bomb.


Earlier in the thread there was a discussion about the relative "crudity" of the American Little Boy bomb. Being an American myself, I feel compelled to jerk Simon's chain just a little bit on behalf of my native land!


While the Little Boy bomb was very inefficient and in truth (amazingly!) was actually closer to a fizzle than to a detonation when you consider how much of its highly enriched uranium fuel was actually wasted and how little really exploded, nevertheless---it worked. To be sure, it was not the most sophisticated device that existed on paper even during the war itself; Edward Teller, Enrico Fermi, and at least some German weapons scientists were already far along the road to boosted fission and even H-bomb theory. But it was the first bomb to be brought to industrial completion as a finished and practical weapon system. So, the historic American "brilliant amateurism" still had telling effect when all was said and done, even if it wasn't as "sexy" as some other approaches would have been---but those other approaches were never completed (or were they?!). Here I am reminded of some comments by German Army soldiers and engineers about the crudity of the Soviet T-34 tank. To be sure, the T-34, in many ways, WAS crude in comparison with some German machines. But guess who won the war? General Guderian also called the T-34 "the best tank in the world in any army up til 1943", so "crude" and "effective" sometimes go together. Technological sophistication does not always equal practical effect. Just sayin'.

Regarding proof for the claim posted upthread that many tons of waste from Germany's WWII nuclear weapons program(s) has been discovered, there are many articles on the web about this and they are easily found. I will post one of them, from the UK Daily Mail, here:

Nazi nuclear waste from Hitler's secret A-bomb programme found in mine

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...

By Allan Hall
UPDATED:03:36 EST, 13 July 2011

German nuclear experts believe they have found nuclear waste from Hitler’s secret atom bomb programme in a crumbling mine near Hanover.


More than 126,000 barrels of nuclear material lie rotting over 2,000 feet below ground in an old salt mine.


Rumour has it that the remains of nuclear scientists who worked on the Nazi programme are also there, their irradiated bodies burned in secret by S.S. men sworn to secrecy.


A statement by a boss of the Asse II nuclear fuel dump, just discovered in an archive, said how in 1967 'our association sank radioactive wastes from the last war, uranium waste, from the preparation of the German atom bomb.'


This has sent shock waves through historians who thought that the German atomic programme was nowhere near advanced enough in WW2 to have produced nuclear waste in any quantities.


It has also triggered a firestorm of uncertainty among locals, especially given Germany’s paranoia post-Fukushima.


Germany was the first western nation to announce the closure of all its atomic power plants following the disaster at the Japanese facility following the catastrophic earthquake and Tsunami in March.


There are calls to remove all the nuclear material stored within the sealed site but this would cost billions of pounds.


Yet the thought of Nazi atomic bomb material stored underground has made headlines across Germany - and the country’s Greenpeace movement has backed a call for secret documents relating to the dump to be released to the state parliament from sealed archives in Berlin.


It was in January of 1939, nine months before the outbreak of the Second World War, that German chemists Otto Hahn and Fritz Strassmann published the results of an historic experiment about nuclear fission.


The German 'uranium project' began in earnest shortly after Germany’s invasion of Poland in September.


Army physicist Kurt Diebner led a team tasked to investigate the military applications of fission. By the end of the year the physicist Werner Heisenberg had calculated that nuclear fission chain reactions might be possible.


Although the war hampered their work, by the fall of the Third Reich in 1945 Nazi scientists had achieved a significant enrichment in samples of uranium.


Mark Walker, a US expert on the Nazi programme said: 'Because we still don’t know about these projects, which remain cloaked in WW2 secrecy, it isn’t safe to say the Nazis fell short of enriching enough uranium for a bomb. Some documents remain top secret to this day.


'Claims that a nuclear weapon was tested at Ruegen in October 1944 and again at Ohrdruf in March 1945 leave open a question, did they or didn’t they?'


Ruegen is a Baltic island and Ohrdruf a top-secret bunker complex in Thuringia where local legend has it that an A-bomb was tested by the Nazis in the dying days of the war.

Note that the name of Kurt Diebner again appears in the Daily Mail article. It is pretty clear that it was Diebner's group that did the bulk of German nuclear weapon R&D during the War, not Heisenburg's "uranium club". However, and this is contrary to the Farm Hall recordings, it appears that Heisenberg still probably knew a lot more about the fast neutron reaction that powers atomic bombs than he let on at war's end. Rainer Karlsch's book Hitler's Bombe contains what is, as far as I know, the only record (by way of a WWII KGB report) of a second, wartime conference of the Heisenberg group, previously thought to have met on a formal basis only once. This was the "Harnack Haus" gathering in 1942---unknown to the West, or at least, there has been no documentation that has yet come to light in the public realm that indicates that Allied intelligence services other than the KGB knew anything about it.


It was at this conference, according to the KGB, that Heisenberg suggested an "alternate" route to an atomic bomb, one rooted in the thorium-proactinium-uranium233 decay chain, and NOT in either a U235 or P239 explosion, as in the US and early Japanese projects. (The Japanese were initially on a U235 route, as demonstrated by the Kuroda papers---notes from the Japanese Army / Riken Institute atomic bomb project---that came to light in 2001. They may have switched to a U233 track late in the war, but I have not seen enough documentation to definitively endorse that conclusion just yet.)


This suggestion by Heisenberg may be what was at the heart of the choice of U233 as the "bomb fuel" indicated in the Schumann Trinks design, a design which has been mentioned several times in this thread. Mr. Gunson earlier posted a simplified schematic to explain the basics of the S-T weapon. Some posters upthread derided that schematic as being an unworkable bomb design, but that illustration was NOT the actual, original German work. It was only a simplified schematic that Simon has used elsewhere to explain the basics of the the S-T approach to an atomic detonation. He actually posted a copy of the original, technical, design drawing elsewhere on the web. You can see the real deal by clicking the link below. Unfortunately I could not figure out how to make my library computer upload the photo directly to this thread, for which I apologize.


Schmann Trinks Warhead Design

thumper76
there are a few TV special out there about the latter part of WWII and one has to wonder if the war had went on another year if there would have been a different outcome? The Germans were on the cutting edge of several things and it seems that time and money just ran out.

And troops, production capability, raw materials, railroads destroyed, lack of transport to move fuel, Germany was nearly bombed back to the stone age.

Mercury was mentioned upthread. There are a number of possible applications to nuclear weapons design with this substance. IIRC, Simon wrote that it (mercury) may have been used by the Germans as a substance (in the form of an amalgamation of mercury with uranium or some other fissile material) utilized to transport some kind of atomic bomb-making material in submarines going from Germany to Japan. I think that this is probably where any real world application occurred during WWII itself, but there is also some information in various places on the web regarding "red mercury", which can apparently be created---depending on whom you believe---in a breeder reactor. The substance evidently has a short half life, about 3 months, but its great advantage is that it can be used to detonate extremely small fusion or neutron bombs. In other words it can be used to create a thermonuclear explosion without the need for a primary fission explosion.


While there is a great deal of rancorous back and forth about whether this substance really exists, we do know that the Germans, particularly as researched by Karl Nowak, were interested in it during WWII. And while I have no desire to add to the sometimes absurd legend of WWII Nazi science, nevertheless the Germans were indisputably and unquestionably far advanced in many important areas of R&D, and as with some aspects of Tesla technology, in recent years some previously-abandoned ideas explored by the Nazis have been re-examined by various scientists. Supposedly both the Russians and various terrorist groups are known to have had interest in thought-to-be-dead-end German ideas. Red mercury is allegedly one of these, and so is the Zippermayr fuel-air "coal dust bomb", also known to some today as the "a-neutronic bomb". (Don't ask me why they call it that, unless it is to distinguish it from small nuclear, thermonuclear, or neutron bombs, because the blast effect of a large fuel-air bomb certainly approaches if not equals the effects of a small nuke, minus the hard radiation.)


Source: Hitler's Suppressed and Still Secret Weapons, Science and Technology, by Henry Stevens, copyright 2007.


I just tried several times to post the results of the google search I used to find Stevens' book. Some of the sites I found will allow a free download. Unfortunately my feeble internet skills are once again inadequate for the task of posting that search as a complete URL. Or maybe the public library's browser is thwarting me. In any case, you can use the following terms, or probably anything similar: hitler's + suppressed + and + still-secret+weapons + science + and + technology + pdf



Stevens should be taken with a grain of salt because his previous book had to do with German "flying disks" and other comic-book fodder, but I think he is on track with this book, at least he is if the various sources he lists in it are any indication.

reply to post by Mists


Plus the Ford truck plant outside of Paris was never bombed, 5,000 trucks a year for the German war affort.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg



Most "high-ranking Nazis" were captured and tried at Nuremburg, that is true. The ones who were still alive and/or who had otherwise yet to kill themselves rather than face the hangman's noose. But a larger-than-should-have-been-the-case number of them got away, most to South America, through the Odessa network and other "ratlines" (pre-existing "underground" escape routes)---and, I have long suspected, with the aid and connivance of other interested parties. Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele, to name just two. Others, notably in this context SS Gruppenfuhrer Dr. Ing Hans Kammler, conveniently disappeared entirely from the historical record. Kammler was directly in charge of at least one of the German atomic bomb programs from at least mid-1944 until the end of the war. What became of him is a mystery, though I believe Mr. Gunson may have something to add on that score.

I think it's a popular misconception that because Germany was surrounded and because it was the underdog that this somehow led to miraculous military inventions. While ti's true necessity mothers invention, I argue it's not also true extreme necessity mothers even more invention, nor is it true extreme necessity with extreme threats to your life mothers invention. Fact of the matter is, Germany invented many things in attempt to win the war, but so did the Allies.

Sy.gunson has demonstrated he doesn't know physics. His replies do not deserve attention. When one is given a choice, it's best to steer clear of BS.

dowot
Winston Churchill was, at one point of the war, thinking of using Anthrax and possibly other poisons, the use of which would have been catastrophic to a large part of Europe.

For him to consider this course, must have come as an answer to some equally devastating threat from Hitlers Germany.

Of course that threat may just have been bluster, the threats of a slightly deranged megalomaniac and have had no basis in fact. Or maybe there was?

Maybe, like the CIA/FBI (Not sure which one, sure someone will tell me.) in the cold war time, exaggerated the USSRs abilities in an effort to gain funding from the US government?

While this line of evidence is anecdotal, it is nevertheless noteworthy from where I am sitting, particuarly the bolded part. To be sure, Hitler could have been bluffing and clutching at straws....but what if he wasn't? It certainly appears as though the Churchill government took some sort of threat very seriously indeed, otherwise they would not have invested their own resources in a doomsday weapon such as anthrax.


By the way, Rainer Karlsch, author of the controversial book Hitler's Bombe, has referred publicly to the devices tested by the Germans near the end of the war as "atomic grenades". This is a turn of phrase that probably indicates he is not certain that what was detonated had the explosive yield of a true atomic bomb. He may have had in mind the threshold established by the Manhattan Project for an explosion big enough to qualify as a true bomb: half a kiloton (.5 KT) or bigger. Anything with a yield of less than half a kiloton would still be an "unconventional explosion" and would still be "a nuclear device", but it would not be considered a true bomb of the same type and character as Fat Man, Little Boy, and their descendants. Again, this is an older distinction and is not as useful today because of the renewed interest in "mini-nukes" and because of the ongoing miniaturization of nuclear warheads of all types, but I throw it out there as a possibility.


Here is a link to a somewhat adversarial article that quotes Karlsch's use of the phrase "atomic grenades":


www.theepochtimes.com...

reply to post by hellobruce


hellobruce has stated that there is "no evidence" for a Japanese atomic bomb. That is entirely false. In fact, I would say that there is probably more evidence for advanced Japanese atomic bomb R&D during WWII than there is for the German version, though to some degree the two issues are linked for the simple reason that the two Axis nations were working together on their respective nuclear bomb development projects. The nature and extent of their co-operation is still being researched and it may never be determined definitively, but even the left-leaning Federation of American Scientists acknowledges this, if in very truncated form:


www.fas.org...


The most salient sentence from the article above is this one: "There are indications that Japan had a more sizable program than is commonly understood, and that there was close cooperation among the Axis powers, including a secretive exchange of war materiel."


To be sure, their co-operation was greatly hindered by the distance between the two nations, and of course both Germany and Japan were being pounded into dust by strategic bombing and so their entire national industries were significantly disrupted in ways that the Allied nations' industries were not. Even so, the top two Axis nations were working together to build nuclear weapons, a perfectly logical development given the nature of the war itself.

If what I have read is true, towards the end of WW2, the British, Americans and Russians all were desperately trying to beat each other in looking for any research that the Germans had carried out.

That suggests that the Germans knew or had information that the Allies did not have and it was valuable.

So what was this research and why was it so valuable? They obviously had something and I do not think it was a flying saucer craft or invisibility cloaks.

More important, if found would the powers that be have told anyone?

WW2 was an rather interesting period with many advances.