So, ATS, Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

Originally posted by igor_ats

This law - woman who do not want one are legally protected from having one forced upon them.

Women who choose to have an abortion are legally free to do so. It still quite effectively protects the reproductive rights of all women. Fetus is still not a person despite ruling. Fetus is distinguished from human being. At no time was the legal status of a fetus changed in any way by this verdict.

Fetal homicide laws in general contain clauses that specifically exclude consideration of:

- Abortion procedures,

- Medical treatment, such as the removal of a uterine cancer or termination of a ectopic pregnancy which kills the embryo or fetus as an unintended side-effect, or

- Any action by the mother herself.

I understood the meaning of the law, sorry to confuse... I was asking an ethical open-ended question.

Originally posted by rle4lunch
reply to post by TokiTheDestroyer

 

The only case is if the woman was raped, then that's a different story.

Not really cos you can't means test abortion for rape. Lack of evidence in most cases.

Also if you allow it for rape then it's no longer about "right to life" but about the circumstances of conception - in which case what was the original reason for not allowing it for non-rape if it's not about "right to life".

Originally posted by OceanStone
This is a political issue….

So, what you're saying is that you'd rather waste your taxpayer money arguing about what you think is right and what another person thinks is wrong, when really it doesn't affect but one individual at any given time?

Never mind the million/billion/trillion dollar (depending in what country you live) deficit that affects every single individual in the nation. Let's argue about how we each think each other is wrong! What a novel way to spend more than 1/3 of my money I work 40+ hours for each week. Thanks Average American!

I'm not arguing whether it's a political issue, but rather whether or not it SHOULD be. It's a waste of time, money and breath ... being that there is NO "right" or "wrong". It's an opinion. Nothing more.

[edit on 7-9-2010 by tyranny22]

Originally posted by snowen20
reply to post by TokiTheDestroyer

 

I'm pro life, because as a man I believe that the woman was of sound mind to "procreate" and 50% of what was produced is mine.

[edit on 7-9-2010 by snowen20]

It is still a women's body - and her life - not yours.
You somehow fail to see that you have absolutely no say in it - none. You probably find that hard to accept - there lies your lesson for today - understanding that you are not the centre of the universe.

It's strictly unconstitutional to deny a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy. She has a right to her own body.

I understand the whole argument/debate...but it's quite illogical.

Originally posted by tyranny22

Originally posted by OceanStone
This is a political issue….

So, what you're saying is that you'd rather waste your taxpayer money arguing about what you think is right and what another person thinks is wrong, when really it doesn't affect but one individual at any given time?

Well if no one dared argue and it was made illegal you'd be alright with that since it would save alot of taxpayers money?

reply to post by igor_ats


No. I wouldn't be alright with it because they used taxpayer time and money to pass the law.

2nd line.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
I am pro-life....even yours.

Originally posted by tyranny22
reply to post by igor_ats

 

No. I wouldn't be alright with it because they used taxpayer time and money to pass the law.

2nd line.

So your more concerned about the money involved in passing a law or preventing a proposed law (both involve tax payers money) than the merits (good/bad) of passing such a law in the first place?

I'm regulating personal morality and private morality.
Wait, no I'm not.
Pro-choice. We have NO amendment in the Constitution protecting privacy rights: However, we use a combination of amendment 5, 4, 3, and 1 to justify an implied right.

Let it be a person's own moral dilemma, something that they live with. I shouldn't guide them in any direction based upon my beliefs.

reply to post by TokiTheDestroyer


Pro Life

End of story.

I always ask the same question in these threads.

Which one of you has been in the position to make this decision?

Which one of you has found yourself pregnant and in a situation you felt "emotionally" - "financially" - "health" or "other" - - that you HAD to make a decision?

My fist pregnancy miscarried at 4 months.
My next two were normal and I had 2 daughters.
My fourth was aborted.

At least I qualify for having an authentic viewpoint.

Again - which one of you has been in the position to make this decision? Because I guarantee you - - 99% of you don't know what you would really do if it ever happens to you.

Im Pro life but there are exceptions. like rape or extreme retardation. my mother is a teacher of retarded kids and she tells me she sees the quality of life for some of these kids as boarderline crule to have them alive and hooked up to tubs and such.

and lets not call it pro choice. call it how it is killing un borns. im tired of hiding the killing of babys under a not so mean sounding word as pro choice.

From Thread: Teen In Critical Condition After Botched Abortion
Posted by Starbug3MY, on September 6, 2010 at 15:27 GMT

Abortion is the only life and death issue that we are dealing with in today's society so far. Euthanasia is just down the road. The baby comes into being with a soul, part of her mommy, and equally part of her daddy. baby's heartbeat and umbilical / placenta are the means the baby creates in order to grow and sustain it. That heartbeat does not belong to the mother only , so it's not "her own body".

That baby also deserves the assistance and love of her father. But do we ever even consider the grief and anguish men feel? The situation is totally out of their hands and they can't do anything at all to save their babies.

How cold-hearted must an abortionist be to do any of these Frankenstein-type "Procedures "? The 2 M.D.'s in this story are just a small sample of what goes on in the abortion chambers. Did you know that "partial-birth abortion" is just a normal delivery until the head is ready to come out the abortionist stabs scissors through the back of her skull, suctions out the brains then the skull collapses and they pull out a dead baby. Did you know that said baby brings lucrative profits for research?

Did you know that at other places they do it differently. They just put the patient into labor, and after so long, a dead baby is born. But some survive and they are just left to die. You can get all of these facts online.

At one place the doctor brought to the nurse a set of twins! (how lucky) who were gasping for air because they were pretty far along in development. The nurse was sure they would use resucitation procedures because they were still alive. She was repulsed and sickened when the doc took them,smiling, and put them in a
bucket of water to drown. She quit that hospital right after this happened.

There was a Born Alive Protection Act written up and OB vetoed it.

Did you know that after a D & C (dilation and extraction) killing, he or she has to take the "tissue" (victim) which is always hidden from the other victim and "re-assemble the baby: head, 1st arm,
torso, 2nd arm and twolegs so that they know they got the whole body out?

Still think it's so simple? I could tell of many such stories and look them up online if you have the time.

Abortion hurts women!
just a small sample of what goes on in the abortion chambers. Did you know that "partial-birth abortion" is just a normal delivery until the head is ready to come out the abortionist stabs scissors through the back of her skull, suctions out the brains then the skull collapses and they pull out a dead baby. Did you know that said baby brings lucrative profits for research?

Did you know that at other places they do it differently. They just put the patient into labor, and after so long, a dead baby is born. But some survive and they are just left to die. You can get all of these facts online.

At one place the doctor brought to the nurse a set of twins! (how lucky) who were gasping for air because they were pretty far along in development. The nurse was sure they would use resucitation procedures because they were still alive. She was repulsed and sickened when the doc took them,smiling, and put them in a
bucket of water to drown. She quit that hospital right after this happened.

There was a Born Alive Protection Act written up and OB vetoed it.

Did you know that after a D & C (dilation and curettage) killing, he or she has to take the "tissue" (victim) which is always hidden from the other victim and "re-assemble the baby: head, 1st arm,
torso, 2nd arm and two legs so that they know they got the whole body out?

Still think it's so simple? I could tell of many such stories and look them up online if you have the time.

Abortion hurts women!

Originally posted by camaro68ss


and lets not call it pro choice. call it how it is killing un borns. im tired of hiding the killing of babys under a not so mean sounding word as pro choice.

EXACTLY.

I'm against murder of the innocent, or if you wish: "Pro Life".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by camaro68ss


and lets not call it pro choice. call it how it is killing un borns. im tired of hiding the killing of babys under a not so mean sounding word as pro choice.

EXACTLY.

I'm against murder of the innocent, or if you wish: "Pro Life".

That is your BELIEF. It is Not mine. And Not many scientists either.

Equal Rights by law is not based on an individuals belief.

And I am against Living children suffering.

Originally posted by camaro68ss

and lets not call it pro choice. call it how it is killing un borns. im tired of hiding the killing of babys under a not so mean sounding word as pro choice.

Lets call it exactly what it is. It is Pro Choice. It is Pro the Right of the Woman to make that Choice.

There are many Pro Choice people who do not believe in abortion - - but DO support Equal Rights.

Your belief on the viability of a fetus - - is your belief. Laws are not made because of belief.

Suppose a law was made Forcing Abortion. I bet then you'd fight for CHOICE.

I am pro abortion, especially if the pregnancy is result from rape, incest or if the mothers life is at risk.

It should not be used as a form of contraception though. Too many unwanted pregnancies result from not using condoms or women not using contraception devices

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by camaro68ss

and lets not call it pro choice. call it how it is killing un borns. im tired of hiding the killing of babys under a not so mean sounding word as pro choice.

Lets call it exactly what it is. It is Pro Choice. It is Pro the Right of the Woman to make that Choice.

There are many Pro Choice people who do not believe in abortion - - but DO support Equal Rights.

Your belief on the viability of a fetus - - is your belief. Laws are not made because of belief.

Suppose a law was made Forcing Abortion. I bet then you'd fight for CHOICE.

well i just telling you my Beliefs. i will not force and say yours are wrong. I guess you can say im pro choice in a sence i dont care what you do with your body but i on the other hand think its wrong. and if it must be done i think it sould be in the first few weeks to a month rather then 8-9 months into it.

[edit on 7-9-2010 by camaro68ss]

Anybody who has a cut-and-dry opinion on abortion has not thought it through. As others have said, it's a complex issue.

Picture a sperm cell and an egg cell. Just sitting next to each other, chillin' like old college buddies. Nobody would argue that destroying either or both of these is murder.

Now picture that same sperm cell jammed inside of the egg cell. The only thing you've done between this scenario and the former is move the sperm cell over a little. But now destroying this is an abortion. I think it is legitimate to ask the question, "How can it be murder if all we've done is move this one thing from here to there?"

This analysis would seem to support the pro-choice position.

However,

Picture a nine-month pregnant woman. Shortly she gives birth. Just as in the previous example, all you've done is move something from Point A to Point B, yet this time it's the difference between abortion and infanticide. This analysis would seem to support the pro-life position.

So what's the deal? When during the nine months does it become alive?

The answer is it's a trick question. The fact is, nature doesn't give a damn about our black-and-white human constructs of life vs. non-life. The fetus is actually slowly growing, the whole time, from conception to birth, slowly building its nervous system and thus slowly becoming more and more "alive". It's a continuous process. There is no magical point at which the "soul" is inserted. (As an aside, this does not invalidate the "hard problem of the soul", that is the question "Why am I I and not you?"; it merely complicates it with puzzling data.)

So then how do we answer the ethical question of abortion? I think the first thing we must do is give up the "yes or no", black-and-white answers to the question. Nature simply does not work that way, so why should we? From this foundation, we can perhaps finally find common ground between the two opposing sides in this heated issue. We can turn it into a discussion rather than a war.

My current opinion? I say if you become pregnant, you should deliberate and come to a decision as quickly as possible as to whether you will keep the pregnancy. If you choose to abort, do it immediately, and don't burden yourself with guilt for destroying a few cells. If you choose not to abort, then commit to that decision and don't change your mind halfway through the pregnancy. The longer you wait, the more human the fetus becomes.

But I'm a male, so what do I know?


ETA: Notice this post is about the ethical question of abortion. As for the political question, I could give a whole analysis on that too, but to me it's not as important because political debate among us powerless is all fap fap fap anyway, so I'll just leave it at saying I'm pro-choice.



[edit on 7-9-2010 by NewlyAwakened]