Do You Believe In Transsexualism?

Originally posted by spaznationalShort of physical/congenital issues a person's gender is predetermined.

Since when is the structure of the brain not physical?

Psychologically, Yes.

Of course it is entirely possible to believe you are the "wrong" gender.

If you are born a man, you are a man and vice versa, but psychologically, i agree that a born male has the mind/feelings/urges/emotions/etc of a women and feels right as one. (and vice versa).

Physically you'd always be what's on your birth certificate, but its what you think that counts not what down there when it comes to transgender.

I have no real opinion of this. Never really put much thought into why these people would get HRT, or why these people feel they are not the right gender, but just a general fascination as to how the entire process works (HRT), and how the human body is so malleable in regards to gender. It really is like cheating our DNA.

Anyhow, I guess some people are just born feeling different, and they have some congenital inclination that they are not the correct gender.

[edit on 4-9-2010 by free_form]

Although this may just cause more confusion in regards to the whole transexual/gender identity subject I do have some personal experience in this matter.

I am a women with higher than normal levels of testosterone, which I decided to have tested due to this subject in particular. This has lead to simple physical differences in me such as excess body hair growth from an extremely young age and severe sweat issues, to more complex mental issues.
I identify as bisexual as my entire life(from as early as 3 years old) I have been equally sexually attracted to both males and females ranging anywhere in physical characteristics from masculine men and women to feminine men and women. I guess that is also something to note, that I became sexually aware at an age as early as 3, not because I was involved in the act, but I was fully aware of what it was and what the feelings of attraction meant. (I matured mentally at a very early age also, to the point of speaking full sentences at a year old).

I have found on many occasions that I will just feel as if I'm in the wrong type of body and should be "the man" in a relationship or sexual encounter. One could just see this as a domination complex, but for me it really is more than that. I will just get a suddenly intense feeling of being physically wrong, as if my body is just not the way it should be and it is not always when I am in a situation that has anything to do with gender roles at all. It can almost be like a headache coming on, just a completely random and intense feeling of something being off. But for me it is not a constant strong feeling as it is for the transexuals or others with gender identity issues that take it as far as deciding to become the opposite sex of what they were physically born as. Everything from just the attraction to my feelings of being in the wrong body seem to be just short of 50/50. I usually say the only reason I would prefer a lifetime relationship with a man instead of a woman is because the attraction leans 51% towards men along with my feelings of being female or male. There is just that 1% part of me that leans towards my female side and keeps me as I am, but it has lead to interesting things in my life and choices.

I also personally know others that are transexual to the extreme and if it weren't for the simple fact that a full gender reassignment is expensive they would get the change.

But I can see where it can be hard to comprehend for those who have never felt or had thoughts of just not being right, or normal, or in the right body. I would compare it to trying to explain what physical sensation feels like to someone whose entire body is numb, or what sight is like to someone that is blind. No matter how much you try to explain it, until someone has felt that feeling for themselves, it can be nearly impossible for them to understand.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~
I think that you'd find that science is working more to prevent tumultuous issues such as this from ever happening rather than manipulating DNA as part of some agenda.

It doesn't really matter if it is part of some agenda or not, interfering with nature can carry some very bad consequences for all of humanity if things go too far. If somebody decides they really want to be a Horse and technology was able to accommodate this wish, would you support it? How about somebody who feels they are really "meant" to be a dolphin?

Over the course of the last few weeks I've noticed you've used the term "natural" vs. "unnatural." My opinion on this and other issues is that it's ALL natural, regardless of whether we understand and/or agree with the outcome.

Do you believe Serial Killers are born that way? Is it "natural" for somebody to be born with the desire to kill lots of people? Maybe this comes down to the "nature vs. nurture" debate, but it still stands that upbringing and societal influences can play a major part in shaping peoples' desires. I doubt all Transsexuals are "born" feeling like they are in the wrong body - it is much more likely they convince themselves of these things as they grow older and form their own sense of identity.

These people are born the way they are. that, in my opinion, makes it a NATURAL phenomenon. Not understanding something doesn't automatically make something "wrong." Wrong is denying all evidence simply to fit an individuals biased or conditioned belief system.

So then what is your opinion of those born with a weak heart or torn lungs? Why do doctors perform surgery on these infants to replicate the functioning of an infant with a normal/healthy heart or lungs? Surely these infants lives are in danger because their bodies are not functioning naturally. If somebody feels they should be the opposite sex, who is to say that having surgery won't bring forth dire consequences for them later in life?

It seems the vast majority of people are born a particular sex and die as that particular sex. Does this make Transsexualism wrong? No. But it does suggest it is an abnormality.

[edit on 4/9/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by ~Vixen~
I think that you'd find that science is working more to prevent tumultuous issues such as this from ever happening rather than manipulating DNA as part of some agenda.

It doesn't really matter if it is part of some agenda or not, interfering with nature can carry some very bad consequences for all of humanity if things go too far. If somebody decides they really want to be a Horse and technology was able to accommodate this wish, would you support it? How about somebody who feels they are really "meant" to be a dolphin?

This is basically quoting a South Park episode. One of the biggest issues with today's society is that the majority of people seem to pick up their political beliefs from South Park and Colbert episodes. In this instance the South Park boys own logic pokes holes in their beliefs. They joke about the so called slippery slope of drugs and homosexuality - and then in the same breath apply slippery slope logic to transsexuals. They are just appealing to the lowest common denominator of opinion in much the same way Pen and Teller might.

There is physical and psychological evidence that a person is transsexual. Such evidence does not exist for people being dolphins. Transsexualism is at least a decent theory which warrants research. TransDolphinism is (and I hate to use this over used term) a strawman. A large amount of the debates against TS appears to be this.

Also one of the main symptoms to diagnose a TS is their behaviour/feelings as a child - and the majority of TS persons have these thoughts/feelings at an early age.

As for later in life issues ... Research points to TS persons having procedures complete makes them happier, less depressed, and less prone to suicide. TS persons have a very high rate of suicide if they do nothing about their condition.



[edit on 5-9-2010 by Pinke]

[edit on 5-9-2010 by Pinke]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
It doesn't really matter if it is part of some agenda or not, interfering with nature can carry some very bad consequences for all of humanity if things go too far.

Key words: "... if things go too far."

I certainly agree that scientific progress should be approached with caution, however caution is still much different than denial and stagnation due to fear of what may be.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
If somebody decides they really want to be a Horse and technology was able to accommodate this wish, would you support it? How about somebody who feels they are really "meant" to be a dolphin?

OK... not really sure where the hell that came from, but anyone wanting that type of modification surely needs psychological assistance.

What we're discussing here is allowing a competent adult to modify his/her physical anatomy to coincide with their self identified gender role so that they may more comfortably interact in today's society. Such changes should not be taken lightly, (If I recall properly, currently accepted practice already requires several years of psychological counseling prior to surgery) but if an adult feels that it's the right path for them, who am I to dictate otherwise?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Do you believe Serial Killers are born that way? Is it "natural" for somebody to be born with the desire to kill lots of people? Maybe this comes down to the "nature vs. nurture" debate, but it still stands that upbringing and societal influences can play a major part in shaping peoples' desires. I doubt all Transsexuals are "born" feeling like they are in the wrong body - it is much more likely they convince themselves of these things as they grow older and form their own sense of identity.

Nobody is born a serial killer, and I agree with your statement that societal influences can play a major part in shaping peoples desires. Societal influences, however, are not the exclusive cause of gender identity issues. Not all are born that way, but i believe that most are. I don't believe that changing ones physical characteristics affects any changes to ones innate sense of gender identity that's hardwired into our being in utero, but personal opinions aside, some people suffer from this dysphoria and should be afforded the right to self determination once prudent screening is completed. We may not understand it, but it is what it is and certainly NOT my place to decide.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
So then what is your opinion of those born with a weak heart or torn lungs? Why do doctors perform surgery on these infants to replicate the functioning of an infant with a normal/healthy heart or lungs? Surely these infants lives are in danger because their bodies are not functioning naturally. If somebody feels they should be the opposite sex, who is to say that having surgery won't bring forth dire consequences for them later in life?

Correcting physical ailments so that people can lead normal, productive and happy lives isn't much different. In both cases we're talking about assisting someone so that they may lead longer and happier lives.

As previously stated, sex reassignment isn't something that should be taken lightly because it is a life altering and largely irreversible process. That why psychological screening beforehand is so important.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
It seems the vast majority of people are born a particular sex and die as that particular sex. Does this make Transsexualism wrong? No. But it does suggest it is an abnormality.

Thankfully this type of disorder is a rarity, however just because it's rare doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, nor does it mean that we shouldn't acknowledge its existence and not try to assist people suffering from this incongruity of sex and gender identity.

reply to post by Pinke


Perhaps there is confusion about what the title of this thread is asking. Does Transsexualism exist as a empirical phenomenon? Yes it does. Whether that be anecdotal or documented evidence, there is enough data to conclude that it does exist. I don't think anyone here is really arguing that it is an imagined phenomenon in the sense of observerable evidence.

The main issue I have with the "Transsexualism is normal" mindset is that it can set a dangerous precedent for children who demonstrate transsexual tendencies before they are mentally mature enough to comprehend what it is they assume they are feeling. These feelings will be more intense during puberty and by the time they are young adults, they might have already made up their minds.

Operations that are undertaken to alter one's sex are not to be taken lightly; the biological and physiological modifications made can have a very negative effect on the person's bodily functions and mental health. In many cases, these consequences are permanent.

[edit on 5/9/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Well from my personal experience the doctors themselves don't encourage it to be main stream - so I don't think it ever will be. I don't think children can be convinced to be transsexual. If anything status quo makes many transsexuals doubt themselves/feelings until late in life.

reply to post by Death_Kron

Originally posted by Death-Kron
I've got a quick question for all you, simply do you believe in transsexualism? i.e. do you think that some people are born "in the wrong gender"

I'm not sure what to believe on this one. I think science has got a long way to go before it can absolutely prove weather or not an individual is born in the wrong gender. So I think that it is important not to judge others because of their sexual orientation. We are all human and all capable of making mistakes.

However, I can't help but feel that people who want to change sex are doing so out of choice rather than necessity. I believe that people choose to be homosexual, and once having made that choice, they eventually become oblivious to it, and end up in denial.

I believe that it is a choice. A moral failing. But who am I to judge. People should be free to be whatever they want to be. And if a man wants to become a lady-boy, that certainly is his right. But I don't have to believe that it was done out of necessity.

[edit on 5-9-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

reply to post by Death_Kron

I've got a quick question for all you, simply do you believe in transsexualism? i.e. do you think that some people are born "in the wrong gender"

Totally. But wrong is a bad word to use. Men are not wrong (regardless of appearances) neither are women. Let's say "different."
There is even a thread going on right now about skinny, slender hipped women not being as well suited for childbirth.
Curvy men, feminine looking men might tend to be overly emotional.
This is a good example of genetic disparity.

What you have on the outside is simply packaging.
Girls usually get the breasts and the butt and the pretty pink package and boys get the penis, the biceps, and all the blue.

Outside wrapping paper typically matches the gender nature of the energy body it contains, but not always.

[edit on 7-9-2010 by rusethorcain]

Speaking as someone who has Transexualism close to their heart may I forward the notion that only an uneducated bigot would truly believe that this is a choice! Believe me the reality of a Transexual world is very grim and no-one in their right mind would want to be Transexual. For me it is not something to be proud of and the Train wreck that is left behind is scary.

There are many factors that could and the word is could cause Transexualism. For instance a Mother taking the piull through the first trimester of pregnancy could upset the hormal balance whilst the baby's brain is developing thus causing the baby to have a female brain. Every baby starts off as female and then through chemical reactions and natural selection the gender is decided. many of the early hormonal tablets that women take are now banned!

"A structure deep within the brain, where the tangled roots of sexuality are thought to lie, differs substantially between ordinary men and transsexuals who have surgically transformed themselves from men into women, scientists have reported.

Researchers in the Netherlands have discovered that a region of the hypothalamus, located at the floor of the brain, is about 50 percent larger in men than in women, and almost 60 percent larger in men than in male-to-female transsexuals. If smallness of this brain structure is at all correlated with the feeling of being a woman, the results raise tantalizing possibilities that transsexuals may in a sense be more female than females.

The discovery is the first detection of a difference in transsexual brains and could at least partly explain why such individuals describe themselves as "women trapped in men's bodies."


The finding may also cast light on the larger issue of sexual identity, of what makes a person feel comfortable-or tormented-in the skin of a man or a woman.

Significantly, the region of the hypothalamus does not differ in size between gay and straight men, and so it cannot be said to play a role in male sexual orientation. Other recent studies have focused on identifying minor brain discrepancies between homosexual and heterosexual men, in general reporting that gay brains appeared comparatively feminine. Such findings, which remain deeply contested, have troubled many people for the simple reason that gay men overwhelmingly think of themselves as men, not as abnormal women. But genetic men who undergo sex reassignment often claim that they felt like girls from early childhood on.

Dr. Dick F. Swaab of the Netherlands Institute for Brain Research in Amsterdam, who with his colleagues is reporting the work in today's issue of the journal Nature, emphasized that this section of the hypothalamus is by no means the entire source of sexual identity.

"I'm convinced this is only one structure of many that are involved in such a complex behavior," he said. "This is just the tip of the iceberg."

In addition, the study remains to be replicated by other researchers, which will not be easy. It was performed by dissecting the autopsied brains of transsexuals, homosexual men, heterosexual men and heterosexual women. Because transsexuality is rare, it took the scientists 11 years to collect six transsexual brains.

But while the number of transsexual brains examined is small, Dr. Swaab said the results has scientific power because the discrepancies in size of the hypothalamic structure were quite large.

Others in the field concur. "These are astonishing data," said Dr. Geert de Vries, a neurobiologist at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. The specific region under study is called the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis. Research in rats and other laboratory animals indicates that this part of the hypothalamus helps coordinate sexual behavior and the release of essential reproductive hormones.

But Dr. S. Marc Breedlove of the University of California at Berkeley, who wrote an editorial that accompanies the new report, said that the function of the bed nucleus in human behavior, sexual or otherwise, remained "a complete black box."

In heterosexual and homosexual men, the bed nucleus measures about 2.6 cubic millimeters, about the size of the colorful, spherical head of a pushpin. In women, it averages 1.73 millimeters, and in transsexuals the average figure is 1.3. Some scientists cautioned that the estrogen treatment the transsexuals took as part of their sex-change therapy might have affected the size of their hypothalamus; but the Dutch researchers tried to rule out that factor by including brains of transsexuals who had stopped estrogen years earlier, as well as brains of men and women with varying hormonal conditions. In no case did the size of the bed nucleus appear to be influenced by adult hormone levels.

The researchers are now trying to collect autopsied brains from women who were surgically changed to men-a considerably less common type of transsexuality than male-to-female-to see if their hypothalamic regions are of masculine dimensions.

Some scientists remain guarded about the meaning of the latest work, as do people in the increasingly activist "transgendered" community, which includes transsexuals and those born with conditions like hermaphroditism, in which both male and female sexual organs are present. "I think that these studies have a very poor history of reproducibility, and that they're undertaken with a particular social agenda," said Cheryl Chase, editor of Hermaphrodites With Attitude, the newsletter of the Intersex Society of North America.

But Dr. Joy Diane Shaffer, director of the Seahorse Medical Clinic in San Jose, Calif., and herself a transsexual, said the results jibed with those that she and her colleagues were gathering, using a very different approach to brain analysis. They are using magnetic resonance imaging technology to scan the brains of hundreds of living people, including heterosexuals of both sexes and transsexuals of both directions. Their method would not pick up differences in the tiny bed nucleus, but it may observe differences in other, larger structures, like the corpus callosum, which connects the two hemispheres of the brain.

Dr. Swaab proposes that the sexual variances in the size of the bed nucleus arise during fetal development, and thus are essentially built in. But Dr. Roger Gorski, a neurobiologist at the University of California at Los Angeles, said the possibility could not be ruled out that the changes in the hypothalamus occurred after birth, perhaps as a result of one's behavior while growing up, or even during early adolescence when a surge in sex hormones flooded the brain.

Read more: etransgender.com...

To the OP

I would seriously consider doing some research before asking a question that is both sensitive, bigoted and opinionated on nothing but fiction. It is people like yourself who cause Transexuals to try to conform and leave behind them a complete wreck. I have made 6 attempts on my life in the past 23-24 years and a recent one I am lucky to be alive. Believe me transexualism is very real, a fact of life and is rife in the animal kingdom.

My testosterone levels without hormone therapy are that of a normal female my estrogen levels are elevated naturally and this is because of human interference at conception. Now these interference's can happen without human intervention and can occur naturally. If it was a case of society being black and white explain xxy xyy xxxy and other problems.

Every waking day is spent praying to die and not hurt the people I love, the only way for me to survive this life would be to have reassignment surgery and if you understood the procedure you would also understand no one in there right mind would electively choose to have this surgery! It isn't like choosing a new nose. I could type here all day long and destroy your bigoted little mind and neanderful view points which are part of societies problem. That would clearly be wasting my time.

Im 27, and have 2 children, 2 children I would never have been able to have, I have a wife, I have tried to live like you think I should live, I have tried to conform for the sake of my parents and extended family, NOT ONE SINGLe BREATH has been mine until recently. Come and explain to my wife that you don't believe transexualism is real, Come and explain to my 4 year old Daughter that her daddy is dead and was never real. You are an idiot and have no idea what you are talking about and the MODS should no better than to promote discriminatory threads!

Also the word transexual is actually 2 words Transitioning is the key part of the word! After reassignment a new birth certificate with gender recognition
certificate does actualy mean that in societies eyes you are now female.

A straight Transexual girl

[edit on 7-9-2010 by IanC99000310]

[edit on 7-9-2010 by IanC99000310]

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

I'm sorry but the simple fact of the matter is that your sex organs are connected to your hormonal system and that's what governs whether your a male or a female.

Natural sex steroids are made by the gonads (ovaries or testes),[3] by adrenal glands, or by conversion from other sex steroids in other tissue such as liver or fat.

You have no clue

Hemaphrodites? children born with Hypospais? XXY XXXY XXYY?

I pray and hope that no child, no partner and no one you know ever has this curse.

Every baby starts as female... for the first development stages the baby is female it is only later the genetalia develop. Matter of factly it is the last thing to develop!

reply to post by Death_Kron


Personally i believe you are born the way you should be whether that is male or female... some people may have been born with both sets of organs which have been the case on many occasions but there are some people who are definately born as Male and who should actually stay that way instead of completely changing themselves into female.... i believe these type of Transexual is a freak and frankly quite creepy!!

There is this site which i used to visit with live cam girls on it which only had girls/women on it but something has changed recently and they now have transexuals on it.... this is sick to me anyway but they have been on the site now for over 2 months so i'm assuming there must be other freaks out there who like Transexuals!

As for Homo's, i find them kinda freaky too as Man and Woman is supposed to be the norm.... to produce offspring together and have sons/daughters who have both Mother and Father... thats why men are born withpenis's and women with vagina's...

My mother tried to get me diagnosed with Dyspraxia because of co-ordination issues. And other behavior or "society" behavior problems ie emotional and sensitive. From 12-onwards I developed an eating disorder fuelled by this abnormality and further to this I have suffered the most excrutiating pain in my pelvis since puberty.

Since being on an Adrogen blocker and estrogen I can tell you 100%

Brain function is up by 100%
Co-ordination is up by 100%
Pains in my pelvis area gone 100%
More organised all the things Mother thought was Dyspraxia I knew what it was!

If you put a 1.0litre engine in a 4.0 litre car it may move but it doesn't function correctly. My brain has had the right fuel for 4-5 months and if you knew the before and after you would understand how it works.

Originally posted by TruthxIsxInxThexMist
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

Personally i believe you are born the way you should be whether that is male or female... some people may have been born with both sets of organs which have been the case on many occasions but there are some people who are definately born as Male and who should actually stay that way instead of completely changing themselves into female.... i believe these type of Transexual is a freak and frankly quite creepy!!

There is this site which i used to visit with live cam girls on it which only had girls/women on it but something has changed recently and they now have transexuals on it.... this is sick to me anyway but they have been on the site now for over 2 months so i'm assuming there must be other freaks out there who like Transexuals!

As for Homo's, i find them kinda freaky too as Man and Woman is supposed to be the norm.... to produce offspring together and have sons/daughters who have both Mother and Father... thats why men are born withpenis's and women with vagina's...

I find it creepy that you spend your time watching women on web cameras for kicks instead of having a real relationship and then find it sick that people might like transsexuals.

Anyway its none of my business - just as what people *like* is none of your business.

To the OP who I'm not sure if s/he is still reading this question It can certainly lead to a wide array of answers depending on the lens that is looked through while examining this question. On one hand if someone believes gender is determined by the culture and society around us then. Then yes it could certainly be argued that there is such a thing as being handed the wrong body at birth.

Now if we are just simply talking mindsets already stone cast when we come forth from the womb then perhaps it becomes a bit hard to answer. I for one believe it to be a bit of the former and latter that I have typed out, as we become accustomed to such roles as we progress through life. Though sometimes that cannot answer the question as many people seem to slip through this theory.

Though in my own personal viewpoint I would say yes I do believe in it especially after knowing a person who was transitioning.

Someone wrote...

Hemaphrodites? children born with Hypospais? XXY XXXY XXYY? I pray and hope that no child, no partner and no one you know ever has this curse.

It is not a curse but a condition, uncommon and unusual, like albinism. 8e.devbio.com...

Hermaphrodites have a long history. Indeed, many traditional cultures believed that the original person was perfect. Perfection means having no wants that need to be satisfied, so the first person was hermaphrodite. This can be seen in Plato's Symposium, where the original form of humanity was hermaphrodite, but when they got too numerous Zeus, decided to split them in half. After having done so, he finds that the now-separate sexes spend all their time trying to join themselves back together.

There are ancient beliefs these hermaphrodites were the sacred, and religious ones among the people. Eunuchs and hermaphrodites were revered as holy or sacred.
www.salagram.net...

The Hermaphrodite is well known for being of little or no sexual appetite, and thus free from such a mundane absorption of a sexual nature. Thus by many the Tritiya Prakriti (Third sex) were considered sacred because of being free from sexual urges like the rest of society was, plus they could understand and relate insights from both sexes, thus they were considered in some ways wise.

And this was very interesting, a hermaphrodites blog
www.ravenslairleather.com...

As a child, I did not feel like I was like other boys. I did not feel like I was like other girls either. I felt like I was an alien. When I first discovered the word androgyny, I realized finally what I was...We live in a gender binary society. My true gender has been eradicated from existence at a legal level, a psychological level, and a physical (medical) level. In our society, there are only two genders that are allowed to exist, female and male.

From the standpoint of societies acceptance of the condition I guess it can be seen as a curse - but only in the same way an inter-faith or inter-racial marriage can mean trouble or be a curse for the couple involved.

[edit on 7-9-2010 by rusethorcain]