Question: Why do we have to pay to live on a planet we were born on?

The system was put in place long ago, people paid for protection from hordes that would ransack villages by offering food clothing and shelter to those who protected them, and then soon they were paying this same thing to their spiritual leaders. Then the spiritual leaders split into two parties that eventually became the government of the tribe, which was also paid for in the same way. You now had a working class, a fighting class, a religious class and a political class.

The working class hunted and grew food, built the shelters, took care of herds, made clothing and tools etc. All of these things were bartered for one working class would trade his wares to the other in exchange for something the other had that he needed.

The protectors formed into armies that were away from home and a new trade went on, tiny pieces of metal with sex acts on them that showed what the soldier wanted from the woman they gave them to, and was willing to barter whatever they had on them that they did not need to get these coins. Thus the trade of coinage was created as well as one of the oldest professions, oldest profession being that it was there first one that bartered coinage, though I am sure that other things were bartered before this, this just made the language barrier easier to overcome, because these soldiers were no longer in their native speaking land when away from home much of the time.

Soon government leaders saw that using coinage to represent the leader, was a good idea, using gold coins which were of value themselves with their picture on it, and soon this was used to pay the government leaders, religious leaders, the armies, and between the working class as well.

Soon coinage and other forms of currency became the norm, and we now have this system set in place due to the foundation that was set in place thousands of years ago. Your taxes go to the police for protection from would be assailants, to the military to protect from armies that would do your country harm, to political leaders to come up with and enforce policies, to courts and judges, prosecutors, public defenders, teachers who teach the children, garbage collectors, etc. You pay money to utility companies because they need to maintain the equipment that delivers the service to your home. The list goes on, but you can see where all of this came to and is lead to.

It may have been slightly more complicated than this; I just wanted to simplify it.

[edit on 8/31/2010 by AlienCarnage]

[edit on 8/31/2010 by AlienCarnage]

Question: Why do we have to pay to live on a planet we were born on?

Answer:
Because of the first hunter-gatherers who decided they wanted to keep the land on which they hunted and gathered (and that land's resources) for themselves -- or trade to let someone else use that land/resources.

Originally posted by brutalsun
I've always pondered the same question. Why do I have to pay for things that are necessary to life? I'm not talking about extravagances I'm talking about the 4 basics; shelter, water, food, fire(warmth).

Because you are relying on others to provide them for you. Farmers aren't growing wheat and corn for charity. You aren't building a house - you're expecting one to be made available for you.

And you can get free water...if you're not concerned about cholera and dysentery.

And so on.

reply to post by Phenomium


You don't get it. We all work for the basics and everyone has them. But maybe you want bigger house. You will have the time and freedom to get it. Me too, I will be free to run around in circles if that's what I like. Read the link.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


haha yes you could possibly live there for free until homeland security runs you for your papers or the LEOs come and nail you for vagrancy or trespassing or both or something worse happens like someone just plugs you thinking you were sasquatch. (gruesome) just MHO

reply to post by NewlyAwakened


I think the idea is that, we each participate in working for the whole group of society. If you are going to sanitize my water? Well hot damn partner, I'm gonna grow you a decent supply of food, if you continue.

If you feel that someone is needed to watch our streets, and keep our families safe, and you feel inclined to do such for a grouping of people. I may feel inclined to build or repair something for you in the future.

These things would be done without monetary exchange. Rather they would be done in exchange of other services, or goods, etc.

I don't believe for a second, that you are going to grow my food, or build my home, provide me transport, etc, without an adequate exchange of labour or effort. And this may even seem impossible to the average man, woman, or child, but if everyone were to be given a task, with the purpose of creating a better, self-sustaining society, I believe it would quickly become a reality.

WE need to remove the futility of certain positions, in exchange for tasks that provide for everyone, by everyone.

The only reason we believe we need to use this system of dollars and cents, is because no one, currently living around us, has ever been exposed to another possibility.

And there are always possibilities.

In the US, at least, we pay taxes as, effectively, insurance. Property taxes pay for schools, as a stable society requires at least a modicum of an educated populace. They pay for police and fire protection, though you may never need them. They pay for welfare, as a basic insurance against poverty, which drives chaos (count the number of revolutions in the world that have resulted from simple hunger.)

The rest of the stuff, we pay for because of supply and demand. There are too many people and too few resources to expect that it's going to come to you for free, and if it WAS free, they'd run out all the sooner. You don't pay for water, you pay for clean water. You don't pay for electricity, you pay for someone to generate the electricity. As has been pointed out, there are options for you to acquire these things for "free", but you're trading your capital and labour for the rainwater, vegetable garden or solar generated electricity, so it's still not free.

If you look at examples of societies that have tried to do what you are asking (aside from tribal groups, current population numbers preclude that,) you will see that they've failed, for the simple reason that people are inherently greedy and inherently lazy. Maybe you're not like that (I suspect that we all feel that we're not,) but enough are that they become a drag on society and it falls apart. The only resolution to that is forcing them to work, or starving them, that's been tried, too, and doesn't seem like a very humane solution.

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened

Originally posted by brutalsun
I've always pondered the same question. Why do I have to pay for things that are necessary to life? I'm not talking about extravagances I'm talking about the 4 basics; shelter, water, food, fire(warmth).

So find a remote location where you can live off the land.

Having trouble finding one? Then welcome to the problem the rest of us face. Welcome to civilization.

Get dressed and get to work.

One man and a few others are already living without money.

www.details.com...

There is a lot of land available, but it is not prime land.

Large sections of desert are devoid of humans because there is
no easy water.

However if you had a solar thermal collector with ammonia
in it designed like an Einstein refrigerator it would have no moving
parts and create cool air and condense water out of the air.

You can see a similar but more expensive effect in AC units that
drip water off them.

Google "solar ice" and check out the PDF.

40% of energy use goes to heat and cool bldgs int he US.

If we used simple insulation enough we would not need to.

We know this is true because the temp 3 ft down stays the same
year round about 59 degrees, except where there is permafrost.

Using hydroponics you use about 10 times less water.

Add in Aquaculture and you can get fish that eat plants.

Use a composting toilet and you save a lot of water use.

Some old buildings in the UK are made of cob, some are over
400 yrs old and still standing, this is a VERY cheap building
material and would work in the desert and act as massive
insulation.

Food, water, and shelter covered.

You can cook with a solar oven in most places, if not then you
can look at other means.

Ocean current power alone could power the world,
Solar Thermal same deal, same for geothermal,
and jet stream power.

As I have stated elsewhere many times we can even grow
oil at a rate of 100,000 gal/acre/yr in the desert.

We have a poor management problem, and greed run amok.

Time to let the engineers start solving some of the problems instead
of funding multi trillion dollar wars half way around the world.

Time to close half the 700+ bases in 130+ countries.

Time to employ taxpayers instead of politicians accepting bribes
under the table to send jobs overseas, and create 73 different
types of Visas to import cheap workers.

The pirates are running amok and the system is falling apart.

The ponzi scheme is coming to an end.





[edit on 31-8-2010 by Ex_MislTech]

Originally posted by mothershipzeta

Originally posted by brutalsun
I've always pondered the same question. Why do I have to pay for things that are necessary to life? I'm not talking about extravagances I'm talking about the 4 basics; shelter, water, food, fire(warmth).

And you can get free water...if you're not concerned about cholera and dysentery.

Water brought to a rolling boil in a solar oven is safe to drink,
this is taught in survival circles.

In fact you can even use SODIS to make water drinkable.

en.wikipedia.org...

I'd use glass vs. plastic though due to possible BPA.

In the UK they still use slow sand filters in some areas too.

en.wikipedia.org...

Although they are often the preferred technology in many developing countries, they are also used to treat water in some of the most developed countries such as the UK where they are used to treat water supplied to London.

This is an outdated social meme that goes away with the further advancement of technology and (hopefully) society. Your context assumes that money is somehow a necessity inherent within our species. It's not... money is a form of trade used to barter for resources that were scarce. Removing that scarcity through unmitigated technology and automation then everything could be free. Nobody charges for air do they?

reply to post by NewlyAwakened

Originally posted by xtcsx
This is an outdated social meme that goes away with the further advancement of technology and (hopefully) society. Your context assumes that money is somehow a necessity inherent within our species. It's not... money is a form of trade used to barter for resources that were scarce. Removing that scarcity through unmitigated technology and automation then everything could be free. Nobody charges for air do they?

Sure, but first you have to eliminate scarcity. We're nowhere close to a post-scarcity civilization. Self-maintaining robots producing all basic necessities plus the energy to run and maintain themselves is still science fiction at this point.



[edit on 31-8-2010 by NewlyAwakened]

I have just a quick point in response to the question "What about greed". With as well informed as he is I was rather amazed he didn't have a prepared response to this. He already made the arguments its a matter of connecting the dots. Greed isn't a form of 'human nature' as some (with no research even as to what the phrase means) contend. Greed is a symptom of our social pathology. Along with planned obsolescence as well as the intentional withholding of efficiency to maintain 'profitability'. It is what is rewarded in our society. What's the reward for coming up with a $5 pill that could cure cancer if I as a monolithic healthcare industry make $250,000 a year off a treatment that might work 50% of the time? Lehman Brothers, Bear Sterns, Goldman Sach's were all rewarded with HUGE sums of money for their greed. If there was no money to be made out of the rape of average people then why would they have engaged in the behavior they did? For fun? Power maybe... but even still power supposedly comes from money. One of these days these fanny pack toting consumers wearing sneakers with lights in them are going to realize the world and life isn't about the lives of OTHER people. Not some superficial life sedated on the frivolous consumption of goods to make you 'FEEL' like you are more successful than your neighbor. Until we can learn to take care of ourselves (as a species) we are always going to be held back by those people that use divisionary tactics to keep people distracted away from things that matter, use race as a word when they mean culture, and wealth when they mean wealth for themselves or people that look like them.

Originally posted by xtcsx
Greed isn't a form of 'human nature' as some (with no research even as to what the phrase means) contend. Greed is a symptom of our social pathology.

Nope, basic instinct. Think it through -- when we were hunters / gatherers, it was sensible to be greedy (get as much as you can when it's around) and lazy (expend the least amount of energy to get it) as these are the most efficient characteristics of a species that can't count on there always being antelope hanging around when they need one.

Cripes, go look at any very young kid and you'll see it with every "mine! mine! mine!" and "I don't wanna!" We train 'em to be less selfish and slothful, but that's how most of us come out of the mould.

The world is a big place. There are plenty of places one could go to not pay for such things, but if you want our modern conveniences, then there are trade-offs....

Personally, I like air conditioning, clean water to drink, food I can pick up at a corner store, etc. but hey, to each their own....

Originally posted by tigpoppa
I really liked the unity and meaning behind the post. The video is very thought provoking and I wish the world could be this way. These things are free though so I dont see why people think were getting charged.

There are some problems and let me just share with you why we pay money for things like water and electricity.


Why does water cost money?
Purification costs money. The pipes and the maintenance guys who work on them have families to feed like you do so that is why it costs money.

You are free to drink water from the ocean or any river, the thing is it isnt good for you and contains harmful bacteria. Noone charges you of course for doing this yourself or collecting your own supply in rain barrels.

Why does electricity cost money?

Electricity costs money because of the grid and the substations and all the technology and human effort that goes from getting it from point a to point b.

Electricity is free once you install your own electric collection devices like wind or solar power, in fact government subsidies encourage this so anyone interested should look into it.

The problem is not so much the cost for operating expenses but the fact that these "services" are in place to generate a profit. I too feel that there needs to be a fee for the convenience of water and electricity but why not have a system where everyone is allocated x amount of resources per month for a nominal flat rate to cover expenses. If one exceeds usage then the amount increases substantially based on the amount consumed. This will deter abuse.

Oil is another problem altogether that will not be resolved until the last drop is pump or until the end user makes a change.

So if you take the amount of taxes over all that is taken from us and the cost for what is "needed" to sustain an individual then you can come to no other conclusion than we are enslaved.

The beauty is......we have the key. The only cage that confines us are our minds.

Sure we may not be there yet... We are more there than we would like to think. And we have done so by the way in spite of the current direction we are going in of more waste, more death, more disease, more crime. You dont have solutions to social problems without someone making a profit off them. What's the solution to homelessness? How long have those 'save the children' assholes been getting money out of people and you dont think they could have pulled some resources together and got people some rakes and some seeds and maybe instructed them how to make their own food? We live in a world where 1% of the worlds population 'owns' more than the bottom 50%... 40,000 children die everyday from completely preventable diseases and malnutrition. This is the direction we are going in... this is the direction we HAVE been going in for the past 100 or so years. It's so common we dont even think about them anymore.. we cling to these ideas without realizing that they are counter-intuitive to our survival as a species... we are ants without altruism for the colony as a whole. Think of how different society would be if instead of spending money on the Manhatten project we instead spent that money on getting the best and brightest minds together to solve problems independent of politics and independent of nations. To create a better world radically different than the one we are currently in... dominated by outdated and ineffective ideologies which exist to serve only the people at the top, while transferring wealth from the working poor to the casually rich.

reply to post by NewlyAwakened

the system. is the problem at the moment.
everyone is born into it. into bondage. into slavery from birth
we are told what we want, which is a large bank account. car, house,wife children etc.

all ideals that continue to support the current system

there is no equality

we are taught how to obtain this "dream" thru destroying others abilities to have "equal opportunity" or " equal resources" through the basic needs.

water/food/clothing/warmth/shelter.

all basic necessities of life. yet you have to work/labor for this.

my argument has always been 1 of 2 things

it takes money to earn money.
you cant rise up from teh gutter. start attending a 9-5 and get "your needs" as a human being sorted. it takes money to get food to eat. it takes money to travel to work. it takes money to obtain the "OUTFIT" one must wear to look like part of the work force. traveling to work is not paid. same with on the way home. if you have one.

and 2ndly "necessities" become more expensive by the minute.
a loaf of bread used to cost $0.99c now its $1.10. next week $1.20
but guess what. wages stay the same.

simple crock of #.

i vote for an equal money system with equal opportunity and equal rights.
everyone should have the basic necessities available to them. no labor required. if you want luxury. you labor!.

Alex Collier has been around for years preaching doom and gloom, he is dishonest in that he kept saying in the video he hasn't released this information before, not so, anyting on Project Camelot I take with a grain of salt.

You are confusing societal conditioning in relation to the toddler who says 'mine mine mine'. Not one child in the history of children has ever said "My AIR! MINE MINE MINE".
I think your definition of greed isn't accurate either. Greed isnt getting 'as much as you can while its around' because these people were nomadic and you cant kill an entire heard of wooly mammoths because your not going to be able to carry it all. These nomadic people took what they NEEDED and used all of it. And you are labeling lazy what would be considered 'efficiency'.

I would agree on a certain level that in a hunter/nomadic society these traits would evolve to be more opportunistic, but not in the sense of greed. Greed I think as by our modern definition would account would not be taking from nature in the way of food for survival... but rather from taking from one another to have a better (subjectively of course) 'quality of life'.

We condition our children to that sort of behavior whether consciously or unconsciously and if you don't think a kid that small can be conditioned to behaviors that are unnatural to his own NATURE... then where do you think he learned the words "Mine! Mine! Mine!" from?


reply to post by adjensen

Originally posted by Ashyr
and 2ndly "necessities" become more expensive by the minute.
a loaf of bread used to cost $0.99c now its $1.10. next week $1.20
but guess what. wages stay the same.

Again, it's supply and demand. Every day, more people wanting bread, same amount of bread available, and prices go up. The potential number of people is not finite, the potential amount of bread is.

Make the bread free, and the problem will get worse, because then you've no incentive to conserve your bread. If you like the heels, if bread is free you'll eat the two heels, throw the rest away and get another loaf. If it costs you a buck, you'll eat the whole thing, and maybe enjoy the heels a little more.