Question: Why do we have to pay to live on a planet we were born on?

Yes, the Native American tribes shared the land "freely". They certainly weren't territorial at all, or warlike. I guess rival tribes selling each other's land in treaties with the US gov't is false. If they viewed the land as free and open, they surely wouldn't see the point in signing the land away, am I right?

Originally posted by butcherguy
I understand what you are saying,

but I also want to say that I know a lot of people that aren't paying anything, and get stuff for free. The free stuff is paid for, in part, by me!

How generous of you! Thanks!

...or perhaps that wasn't your choice. Perhaps the State and its affiliated banksters are forcibly taking these contributions from your paychecks, and out of almost every purchase as well. So then in that case it's your slave masters responsibility... the very ones who have put a price on your land, house or apartment, water and food.

You can take away that responsibility from them, and void all these nonsense policies and rules that have the purpose of legitimating property over these things, but you've got to prepare for war as well!

Originally posted by Gainsayer

Yes, the Native American tribes shared the land "freely". They certainly weren't territorial at all, or warlike. I guess rival tribes selling each other's land in treaties with the US gov't is false. If they viewed the land as free and open, they surely wouldn't see the point in signing the land away, am I right?

How come nomad tribes and clans be territorial? Explain that to me, with all your genius.

It is proven fact, on the records from ALL Native nations, that they did NOT have a definition of ownership of either the land, food, or commodities. Their economy was based on resource sharing and bartering, that are among the oldest forms of trade, and the simplest to manage, socially. No currency, landmarks, borders or customs, contracts of ownership (they didn't know how to write anyways) or any sort of security measures such as banks or caches to protect "precious goods" were ever found by archeologists, so that supports it even further.

The reasons why a few of them (the most clever, actually) chosen to make treaties with European colons was to protect as much land as possible, and they did that no less than 300 years after the first European colonies appeared.

Yeah, they viewed the land as free. But in the face of people who, from the start, kept taking land on and on, and keeping it from themselves, according to colonial law, their best solution wasa to do the same with what was left of "free" land. You see, imperialists first imposed on the Native people the way of ownership. It is the very basis of imperialism anyways.... to go somewhere, claim the land, and people, as yours, by putting your flag on it, and then you bring all the rest of your "civilization". 500 years later, all citizens of your colony think they are in some sort of Republic, and that they have a God-given right to possess this land and do whatever they want with it.



[edit on 1/9/10 by Echtelion]

reply to post by ofhumandescent


I was into his work a year ago. He has some pretty good messages.

It just goes to show that the Native Americans had it right again. We, most of modern civilization, lost ourselves. Individually, though, we're loving souls. Little things like money, religion, looks, etc split us apart.

But if a handful of diverse people were stranded on an island, they'd bond together and work as one. There wouldn't be rich or poor, black or white, male or female, Jew or Muslim, Greek or Turk. We'd all be one. Work as one, fight as one, love as one, and live as one. That's how it should be.
That's how it's supposed to be.

"I've always pondered the same question. Why do I have to pay for things that are necessary to life? I'm not talking about extravagances I'm talking about the 4 basics; shelter, water, food, fire(warmth). "

Obviously if you didn't have to pay then you could live independently and you wouldn't be a slave, now would you?

[edit on 1-9-2010 by toomanyknotsTOO]

Originally posted by wasco2
Ummm, no, Woody Guthrie was a devout communist and committed to doing his part to create a communist United States. He would best be described as one of Stalin's "useful idiots".

Clear-cut and decisively divisive.

You missed the entire point of my post by pointing to the personal beliefs of the singer, missing out that the song meant something, the song is the point.

Not the singer.

God Bless the U.S.A. by Lee Greenwood


The point is the song, not the singer, the point is the flag, not the political correct name.

The point is to know your history, not hate your heritage, the point is know your facts, not create divisiveness to derail the thread and or its message.

Originally posted by wasco2
Not exactly. While they may not have claimed the land itself Native Americans fought many wars among themselves over hunting and resource rights.

Well duh, of course they had wars between tribes, hunting grounds and resources.

Before the rather idiotic P.C., or politically correct world stepped in, at least they had honor, something little to none seem to have to this day.

Those Native Americans were the first "Americans".

Originally posted by wasco2
Most of the land in America was bought from the Native Americans. They thought no one owned the land so they were swindling the Europeans. Imagine their surprise when they figured out Europeans took property rights seriously.

Well, white man speak with forked tongue, seriously wasco2.

Most of the land, was stolen, taken by force, and or swindled from the Native Americans.

The white man, the British run Colonial Government, then fledgling American Federal Government did that, the "white man" is the thief.

Do not even try placing lies before historical records of who swindled who.

The term Indian-giver was a propaganda driven lie, because the settlers and or Government misused the trust the Native Americans had in them.

The process and or comprehension of land ownership was foreign to them.

To explain ownership of land to them would be as foreign as explaining honor to someone who does not have it or know what it is or the value of it.

The tribes did see the land as belonging to everyone, while some tribes feuded among themselves, as a consensus, most tribes believed land was for all.

Originally posted by wasco2
It is also important to understand that private property rights are key to our civilization. Without private property rights we would still be hunter gatherers, as the Native Americans were when the Europeans arrived.

That is not wholly correct.

Private property rights only came about because of federal laws.

Often built upon stealing the rights of others.

Sorry, but the Reservations are all that is left, and casinos.

Such proud and honorable people sequestered into the pre-Concentration Camps.

The only difference between those reservations and Nazi Concentration Camps is the lack of barbed-wire, the death ovens and showers, and armed guards killing them whenever they desire to do so.

Most of those people on reservations are so depressed because they lost their cultures, except to be sold as trinkets, to lookie-lou tourists and wannabees.

All nations at one time had hunter-gatherers there is nothing dishonorable in that.

The dishonor comes upon all of those who cannot share that land, who rape, steal, and pillage that land, and murder each other in the name of progress.

Originally posted by wasco2
And last, the term "Native American" to refer to descendants of North American aboriginals really rankles me. They didn't evolve here, their ancestors walked across the land bridge from Asia at the end of the last ice age. My ancestors came in sailing ships from England and Scotland in the 18th century. I was born in Augusta, GA, I'm just as much a Native American as anyone who's ancestors walked here from a different foreign country.

Well, something we agree on, to a small degree, the term Native Americans.

It rankles me as well.

But not for the same reason as it does for you I assure you.

Whether those individuals crossed the land bridge from Asia through the Bering Straits, or not, they were the first settlers, that is a known fact.

As for your ancestors and Scotland, great, your family settled here.

I can trace my family to the Battle of Hastings in 1066.

If I wanted to add my ancestral roots to America, it would be English, Irish, and German.

So, what's your point exactly, besides knowledge of our ancestry?

Being born here does not make you a Native American any more than my being born here, that name, Native American is truly nothing but a label placed upon people as a means of divisiveness by politicians.

Just as every other citizen with their ancestry before their country of origin.

I have not survived my lifetime because of labels but in spite of them.

Asian-American through African-American and all the rest, is just a means, through political motivations, for American citizens to wrench control from themselves, placing it upon their ancestrial roots, bypassing America, through fear-driven indoctrination to appease others.

Think about it for a moment because it very much involves the topic of this thread.

In the grand scheme of things with these divisive labels we place upon ourselves, we first label ourselves after our ancestrial roots, then we put America second.

Sorry, I am an American citizen, born, bred, and raised.

And I refuse to pay for this planet I was born on because before I am an American, I am an Earthling, a human-being, that has red blood and gray brain matter between my ears, who can think, live, and love for myself.

While I may some day eventually purchase land and pay taxes upon that land, it is with that purchase of land that I own it, and no one else will.

But when I purchase that land it will be with knowledge of and through honor those that originally held it before it was stolen, swindled, and or murdered and evacuated for, and those who I hold the highest esteem.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/edaea6c898d6.jpg[/atsimg]

If I had my way I would give the Native Americans back their land free of charge.

And share that land with them while respecting their cultures.

In the knowlege that they have honor while so do I.

Something most selfish people know little to nothing about to begin with.

Most citizens sit on their laurels thinking only about American Idol.

Not American heritage and history.

I would be interested to know if this happens in other countries as well.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

There are still countries where people just farm the land around them without carving it up into ownership. But they still use currency at markets, to buy clothes etc etc. That said, you would be hard pushed to make a living off the land in some climes. And there are plenty of places around the world with low life expectancy - where if you get sick, you die. They would love a shot at the 'slavery', conspiracy types whinge on about.
Man has always had to work for his food and shelter. The world does not owe anyone a living. In fact most of us are the lucky ones, living on the back of the third world like parasites.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by starchild10]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


In this 'politically correct' society...

WHY are they still called "INDIAN RESERVATIONS"?


Surely it wouldn't cost too much to change a few road signs to say "You are now entering the Navajo Nation"

reply to post by zorgon


While I certainly and wholeheartedly agree with you, not the Federal Government.

They would see this as a threat to the entirety of America.

Even though a few tribes still proclaim individual sovereingty.

For one example the Seminole Indians never signed a treaty with America.

But to those on the agreeing side of the OP, do you really know what it is to be free? Does a 2D shape know how to exist in a 3D world? Does a fish understand the complexities of life out of the sea?

What is it we seek, a different set of ideals? Freedom from not being allowed to do what I want, like a have sex with a child or rape my neighbor? Surely no one can go into the idea of revolution without fostering their own vision of how they see the future. Though my examples are extreme, they help wake you up to the very principles of revolution. If it can happen, and it shall, it must be done with the moral boundaries that all mankind can agree upon. Anything outside this is simply preposterous and only sets us back another empire in term, another burdened class of people unable to see the true heritage that their creator (whatever it may have been or is) has given to them.

When you guys talk abount land rights. It's pretty stupid, there is not one piece of land on this Earth of significance that I cannot call to mind that hasn't one time or another been property of another nation one time or another. Nearly all nations have sought to control one another's peoples and resources. Human beings have yet to reach that moral high-ground where we can set aside our differences, and forbid our aspirations or visions of tomorrow. Much of this has to do with the ego-centric way in which we view our reality... The idea of "I" the idea of the self, even to be free to express that self is indeed selfish and in err. We need to look outside and see our brothers, and sisters and the children of the future and the plants and minerals that grow here. Then when we see all that beauty, we can turn to ourselves and say "Ah, hah. That's what was missing, that's why I kept trying to fill the void." But until our principles are sound, and until our cause is true. The only revolution to be fought in the future of any value, is that of the ego. When mankind can resist the urge in a large enough capacity, to be selfish, and to instead be selfless in regards to one's self then I think our true reason to throw of the shackles can be proclaimed.

I'm saddened with the deepest sorrow to know that I will more likely die seeing the world still in slavery than to see what I really am. I do not give up hope in seeing people truly coming together as one, not just because it's cool but because it's all we need to do to end the sadness. I give kudos and much respect to the OP knowing that it is people like you, little grains of sand that one day (with hope) will tilt the scale. Or we just die, and that's it...

reply to post by Echtelion


You're completely ignoring and disregarding history. I'm an avid History fan of Indians in Ohio, particularly the Shawnee tribes. Tecumseh lamented that the other tribes would sell off land, often land they had no claim to or stake in. Just because these tribes had no clear border distinctions like we do today, they inarguably did have boundaries between tribes. They didn't feel that they 'owned' the land like we today do, but they clearly felt that regions were only for their use.
The hunting and trapping of Kentucky for instance, which was considered sacred and holy land, and not to be lived or hunted in, was the main instigator in hostility. Hmm, sounds like they recognized 'borders' to me.
The Eastern woodland tribes (iroquois, delawares, miamis etc.) were nowhere near as nomadic as their western plains brothers. They had specific villages for certain seasons. You're mucking up the traits and characteristics of all the tribes as if they are one singular people with set customs and beliefs. That is folly.



[edit on 1-9-2010 by Gainsayer]

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by meshuggah11

 

That's outstanding work, your conditioning has taken well, your teachers must be proud ... A+ for assimilating and propagating.

Of course I'm pretty sure the OP was looking for perhaps a slightly more deconstructive perspective, you know, the kind that puts in question the mental concepts you have taken to so completely.

My apologies for my snarkiness, I thought we were past the obvious.

sir, you didnt present one case against my point. didnt even try to refute it. that`s not how it works in real life. when calling out on someone you have to back it up. either lay out your counter point or i am calling shenanigans on you. i am not a drone- i look at all points before i draw my conclusions. name calling is cheap and childish.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by meshuggah11]

Originally posted by pai mei

Originally posted by brutalsun
I've always pondered the same question. Why do I have to pay for things that are necessary to life? I'm not talking about extravagances I'm talking about the 4 basics; shelter, water, food, fire(warmth).

Here's my idea. Based on the fact that very few people are needed to produce these basic things. So - we devise a system were we all get them, and we all share the work (very little for all) for them. Rest of the time - free to do whatever you want. Work to build yourself a palace, I don't care. Each with his passion.

paimei01.blogspot.com...

Sounds similar to Jacques Fresco's vision "The Venus Project".

www.thevenusproject.com...

You can always be a bum or live in the forest buddy...

Originally posted by Gainsayer

Yes, the Native American tribes shared the land "freely". They certainly weren't territorial at all, or warlike. I guess rival tribes selling each other's land in treaties with the US gov't is false. If they viewed the land as free and open, they surely wouldn't see the point in signing the land away, am I right?

Wrong .. Territorial Among other Tribes & Outisde Foreigners

The Kahniakehake are known as the Keepers of the Eastern Door, for it is their duty to protect the Haudenosaunee Confederacy from trouble that may approach from the east.

Territorial yeah Battles with Algonquins and French & French Missionary's
The Mohawks I know For Sure did not say The Land was Open And Free!
The Iroquois Formed a Confederacy Their Own Nation The Six Nations
Basically Joined Like States

Source
www.peace4turtleisland.org...

The Iroquois Confederacy drove the Algonquins from their lands. They were aided by having been traded arms by the Dutch, and later by the English. The Iroquois defeated the French and Algonquins. In 1632, after Sir David Kirke's occupation of New France demonstrated French colonial vulnerability, the French began to trade muskets to the Algonquins and their allies. French Jesuits began to seek Algonquin conversions to Roman Catholicism, to tie them more closely to France. Such efforts divided the traditionalists and converts in the bands.

en.wikipedia.org...


A Good Movie to watch is The Black Robe
Then you can see how Non Territorial the Mohawks Were!!

I think we all need to live Like our Ancestors For a while ....
Were loosing of Own Self Instinct to Live Off the Land
Loosing the Farming & Survival Skills as we are so dependent in Getting
the Food from the Grocery store instead of hunting it We are in this system for so long that The Food you buy is usually not even from the Surrounding Area you live on its Either from a different State, Provence.. Or Country! Their No Wild Game to Feed the Whole World just Controlled Live Stock to Artificial Imitations in a Manufactured Assembly Line Tv Dinner

The Chicken Tv Dinner Factory
www.metacafe.com...


Besides that we have to pay for Electricity & Water

Live Off the Land and have your Own Electricity and Water Supply

its Easy a Family Member Of mine Disassembled a Car!! No Lie He used Car parts for his camp by a River ! he has Heat & Electricity & Lights Built a Homemade Water Pump, Water Wheel & Wind Mill Electricity and from Car Alternators and use the 4 Cylinder Engine as a Generator when Needed All From Car Parts with Simple Modifications
The Down Fall is its DC but hey with a DC to AC converter The Only thing
thing he paid was some parts form you local Hardware and Auto parts Store
and Welding Shop
His Next Step is Solar Panels

all you need is a Imagination and learn to Improvise !

The Big Problem is NOT Everyone Has their Own Land and that's where the Problem is that were a Community's , Tribes, Clans Come in , and Falls Back to the System of Paying out

Where i Live The Dammed Electricity is not Even Owned by a American Company its a British Company Called National Grid!! Owned From a Different Country!
is that Sad or what!! the Took over the Former American Own Electricy Company Called Niagara Mohawk

National Grid Group
* September 2000 - Acquisition of Niagara Mohawk announced this was completed in January 2002

* 9 December 1997 - Energis demerged from National Grid.

* 11 December 1995 - The Regional Electricity Companies, who were the main shareholders in National Grid, floated the company on the stock exchange.

* On 31 March 1990, the electricity industry was restructured and then privatised under the terms of the Electricity Act 1989. The National Grid Company plc assumed ownership and control of the transmission system and joint ownership of the interconnectors with Scotland and France, together with the two pumped storage stations in North Wales, but these stations were subsequently sold off.

Source
www.nationalgrid.com...

[edit on 1-9-2010 by Wolfenz]

Originally posted by pai mei
reply to post by Phenomium

 

You don't get it. We all work for the basics and everyone has them. But maybe you want bigger house. You will have the time and freedom to get it. Me too, I will be free to run around in circles if that's what I like. Read the link.

No, I'm afraid that YOU don't get it. Not everyone has the basics. Most people who work, can barely afford the basics and have to sacrifice to get them....sacrifice their happiness, nice clothes and certainly anything that could make them happy. So, what do they do? They turn to the credit card comapnies (who are more than willing to trap you in their web of deceit) which i turn makes them even MORE broke and when the credit card debts are called in they lose their car, house and many other of the (basics) that you speak of. Where have YOU been lately? Watched the recent news? Many in the U.S. and in the world are starving and homeless because of what the elites have done to make themselves richer at our expense. You can run around in circles all you want, but that doesn't make you money...nor does it cost money. It is very hard to even survive these days, especially if you have kids. If you are not suffering some financially.....then YOU are either privledged......or married to someone who is. I can speak from experience here, I have struggled all my life and I even have a decent resume (with experience from many countries).....I still find it hard to survive and I have never had a credit card and live within my means. So I really have NO IDEA, what you are talking about ...you must be privlideged, and if so, I really don't expect you to understand the qualms of an average citizen of the United States who has systematically been financially oppresses increasingly worse (noticably) for the past 20 years.....although they have been working on this for generations. There are but a few exceptions and I am sensing it is you.


[edit on 1-9-2010 by Phenomium]

reply to post by signoregregorio

What is it we seek, a different set of ideals? Freedom from not being allowed to do what I want, like a have sex with a child or rape my neighbor? Surely no one can go into the idea of revolution without fostering their own vision of how they see the future. Though my examples are extreme, they help wake you up to the very principles of revolution.

The current laws, system and policing are very good at punishing those go act against the morals of the government (and extracting revenge from them) but do little to actually prevent the terrible things you mentioned from happening. The vast majority of murderers, rapists and pedos take little notice of the law, as they believe they will not be caught, or they are acting on extreme emotions.

Ideally, in my opinion, there would be no laws and little to no government, just the free market. Everyone is free to live by his own moral code (if you are not already), rather than some morals dictated to him by some organization with its own motives. This does not mean everyone would suddenly go out on a murderous raping rampage. If you want to spend the part of your taxes that would usually go to police (or even other things you don't want) on a security patrol to protect your property and family, that is your free choice. If you would rather buy a gun and a Germain Shepard to do the same, again, your free choice.

The government is like the old mafia. If you don't regularly pay a portion of your income to them (so they can spend it on things you don't want), they will threaten you with violence (aka taxes or protection).

There is little to nothing the government can provide better than the free market. I can't understand why an organization which forces you to spend almost half your income (after all the different types of taxes) on things you don't want gets the support of so many.



[edit on 2-9-2010 by Azp420]

Originally posted by tigpoppa
I really liked the unity and meaning behind the post. The video is very thought provoking and I wish the world could be this way. These things are free though so I dont see why people think were getting charged.

There are some problems and let me just share with you why we pay money for things like water and electricity.


Why does water cost money?
Purification costs money. The pipes and the maintenance guys who work on them have families to feed like you do so that is why it costs money.

You are free to drink water from the ocean or any river, the thing is it isnt good for you and contains harmful bacteria. Noone charges you of course for doing this yourself or collecting your own supply in rain barrels.

Why does electricity cost money?

Electricity costs money because of the grid and the substations and all the technology and human effort that goes from getting it from point a to point b.

Electricity is free once you install your own electric collection devices like wind or solar power, in fact government subsidies encourage this so anyone interested should look into it.

I understand that what you just mentioned here is the every day truth in our lives BUT!! thats because we had let them do what ever they whant with us. Other humans from other planets live FREE, cause money doesn't exist among them they only share and give for free your needs, in exchange for your God given talent. Our purpose here on earth was and is to live forever with out fear, no death or illness and in peace with the animals of this planet, we wore designed to eat from the fruits of the trees and from the fruits of the land scape.

Water and food has been contaminated these days so we could get sick and buy chemical medicine, we wore never told we could use our own plants and trees (herbs) to heal our illnesses, the key to all this evil is control and conquer! we are being prepared for the new world order not from our God but from the God of darkness. You have a choice as a human the new Nephilim does not.

We have let this fallen angels built a democracy among us and thats why we have fallen as a human race, we need to break the chain and do what we wore told by our creator, to live free for ever in this planet as it was ment to be in the first place in PARADICE!

God bless.

reply to post by ofhumandescent



Your awesome!! I agree with you.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
TPTB, the beings (notice I don't call them men/women) behind the curtain, the current puppet masters, don't want us to have free energy,

You have just answered your own question, what we think is real is nothing but an illusion. Once we all start to realise this the sooner whatever is at the top will fall.