Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

Originally posted by buddhasystem
TD,

I've just skimmed this thread, but I don't think it has any merit. It's title is inflammatory and divisive, and frankly... If I don't care much for Testament X...
why bother?

Sorry you dislike the thread and its title. Why bother? Because people not only take the bible seriously, but literally. The killings are often never discussed in churches and many in this thread have found them surprising. Furthermore, the responses in this thread reveal much about people's morality.

Originally posted by under_topsecret
Let´s say that God doesn´t exist.
What is killing millions of people ?

Atheists ?

If all you wish to do is express your anti-atheist bigotry it may be good for you to start up a thread about it. Believe me, there are plenty who share your sentiment.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
The killings are often never discussed in churches and many in this thread have found them surprising.

What´s there to discuss ?
Almost every religion propagate life after death and punishment for sinners.
This punishment is nothing other then killing.

Every believer is aware of this. Really nothing to discuss, from a believers standpoint.

I guess you don´t go around and make kids beleive that Santa don´t exist ? Or you do ?

If religion in your society doesn´t have any directly legal and political power, then you have no moral right to "explain" to anyone that God doesn´t exist.

I would understand you atheists if you live in Iran.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer


If all you wish to do is express your anti-atheist

Of course i am anti-atheists if you wage some crusade to make me believe something you believe.

Originally posted by under_topsecret
If religion in your society doesn´t have any directly legal and political power, then you have no moral right to "explain" to anyone that God doesn´t exist.

Firstly, this is not a thread to "explain the god doesn't exist", it's to discuss certain events in the bible.

Secondly, religion has a lot of legal and political power whether it's direct or not. I have as much duty to be critical of it as the devout feel it's their duty to spread it.

Originally posted by under_topsecret

Of course i am anti-atheists if you wage some crusade to make me believe something you believe.

I don't care what you believe in nor do I wish to convert you. I'm much more concerned as to whether you choose to compose your self politely or come off as a jackass. It's your choice.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by under_topsecret
If religion in your society doesn´t have any directly legal and political power, then you have no moral right to "explain" to anyone that God doesn´t exist.

Firstly, this is not a thread to "explain the god doesn't exist", it's to discuss certain events in the bible.

Secondly, religion has a lot of legal and political power whether it's direct or not. I have as much duty to be critical of it as the devout feel it's their duty to spread it.

Firstly, it is very strange that you discuss something with that passion (and take it as arguments) and at other side you don´t believe in that book. More than stupid.

Secondly, you get rid of God in schools, in Parlament, in almost every public places.

So, your wishes to get rid of God in people´s heart is a little bit too much.

You atheists (god part of them) are simply said boring, rude, and non-civilized in such matter.

Originally posted by under_topsecret

So, your wishes to get rid of God in people´s heart is a little bit too much.

I guess you missed this part:

this is not a thread to "explain the god doesn't exist", it's to discuss certain events in the bible.

I don't care whether people believe in god or not. So get it straight and maybe take your bigotry and misunderstandings somewhere else.

Please....don´t play games. That kind of talk is for small kids.

You feel sorry for killed people in ancient times as much as my ass does it.

It is very clear for everyone why you atheists discuss Bible.

[edit on 28-8-2010 by under_topsecret]

Originally posted by under_topsecret
Please....don´t play games.

Okay, no more games. So why all the anger? I suppose it's because you know deep down that there are no gods but you're comfortable in your delusion and don't want others giving you the truth you already know. So sorry for you that you can't handle life without your imaginary cosmic friend. People with such childish intellectual weaknesses are such a bore.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by under_topsecret
Please....don´t play games.

Okay, no more games. So why all the anger?

Maybe because i´ve seen such threads and comments in infinite number of places in Internet.
Don´t know you, nothing personally.

But simply said you are boring.
You critise Inquisition, but you are so near to take over some of theirs methods. That most of you atheists do in virtual world is nothing more than virtual crusade.

There is nothing to proof regarding God and religion. Just word say to you everything. It is a "religious belief".

If some religion in your country express wishes to go to Parlament, then you have all rights to attack back.

Originally posted by under_topsecret
There is nothing to proof regarding God and religion.

Well then, according to your line of thinking then my job is done.

Good day, sir!

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
The only comparison to today in our terms of justice is; someone comes into your home in the middle of the night and kills your wife, mother and daughter.....is it ok to see the one who did it come to justice? Should that person loose his life for taking the lives of others? Or should that person be person get a slap on the wrist and be sent away, to do it again?

Viewing the biblical god as a sort of cosmic judge responsible for justice comes with problems. The biggest being the fact that injustice runs rampant and the cosmic judge doesn't appear to be at the bench.

Also, the accounts of god killing others in the bible often doesn't equate to justice by any means. We've already discussed Job and the 70K people killed for David's census. Those were not only not justice but completely immoral. One of the interesting things about this thread has been how the devout overlook or ignore the inherent immorality and unjustness of god's acts of killing.

Sorry, this post has so many pages to it, I must have missed the 70 K people and David census, maybe by posting to something prior to?

Whether there is belief in God or not, the other side of this is how many did Satan kill(?) The Bible is about God (his scriptures). From beginning to end he warns about who Satan is and what he is about. When the debates come up Satan is ignored completely.

Whenever something goes wrong, God is the only name that comes up, as if Satan never existed or has no part in it. Not saying that athiests blame God, that woulds be absurd because an athiest would not believe in God to begin with(?!?!?!?) Those that point the finger at God could only be non-athiest. Correct?

It would appear to me that God is upfront on what he does, no secrets. It's the one that does things in secret that is the real danger. Logically it goes for people too. Know your enemy.

By the way, what is TESTAMENT X? Is it some sort of text that is used against christian belief for entrapment? Just curious.

edit: I've seen this Testament X come up in a few other posts. Wondering what it is.



[edit on 28-8-2010 by nlouise]

“You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Did you just abandon the previous conversation with me? You never resolved several conflicts of logic.

reply to post by Gorman91

No one would ask you to sacrifice your child, can't you see how insane religion is ? People picture the creator as this evil entity, it's the powers that be. God to human is like human to bacteria 100000 plus infinite more. Do you think a human would go instruct a bacteria to make a sacrifice, give it instructions how to burn the child bacteria so that the human can smell the sacrifice and be pleased ?

These pranksters make stuff up, it's simple live by your standards don't kill, don't rob people, don't be a greedy monster.

These gods you are talking about were something else, they came to earth long ago and messed with us. God is something else, I can see him in his design, inteligent design everywhere I look, it creates, has ideas and imagination otherwise the universe and this place would not look like this.
God is a designer and an arhitect, creativity with laws of things that are in place. It's not some deluded fanatic that tells you to sacrifice babies.

reply to post by pepsi78


Every leading nation on this Earth has asked a person to sacrifice their child in something their government wanted. Don't pretend it's not normal. God asking it for a test is not insane.

Actually yes, we tell bacteria to do that. We generically engineer them to produce what we want and then sacrifice them to please our health and needs.

God is whatever he wants to be. Like I sad earlier, for all purposes, God basically made Noah build a TARDIS.

The people you speak of are talked about. It's implied there are other worlds out there and other people. Jesus came to save THIS world, not THE world.

If God wants to ask you to sacrifice what you most desire, too bad, that's God. God doesn't have rules. After all, did he not create and allow to exist those creatures you think asked Abraham to do this? Why didn't God intervene? It's because it was God who did it, and was God who stopped it.

God did what he wanted and then went silent. There have been no major absolutely sure "that was God" moments like some sea splitting or some fire tower in the last 2000 years. Nor have there been any new books after the New Testament, nor have there been any real, power filled, prophets. Nothing. The freaking Dark ages happened There should have been an increase in such events and recordings of them with less knowledge. but nope. Nothing. Except for private one on one events and miracles that really have no way to being proved. It's all faith now. And the reason for that is simple. The same God that asked Abraham to sacrifice his child then saved the day is the same God put into flesh in Jesus who said from then on it was waiting, nothing more. And for 2000 years the world has proven true to this statement. God keeps his word. God does what he wants. God does good in the end, even if it seems crazy at first.

This is for OP:

I took the time to write this because I wanted to share my own story of skepticism and how I came to believe, even though my God questions started at a very early age. Not all of us come from a hard luck, rock bottom situation to belief. I understand that what happens to one is not proof for another, but my objective here is to give you something to analyze.

(I apologize that this is so long, but all of it is pertinent)

When I was four I remember my Chronic Bronchial Asthma quite well. I remember the weekly visits to see Dr. Johnson and his nurse for my shots, and playing ‘Old Maid’ cards with my mom in the waiting room. I also remember balling my eyes out every time I would receive a shot, which was the purpose of every appointment. The illness I had kept me allergic to feathers, dust, pet dander, certain fabrics, pollen in the air, and it was like being sick all the time. My bedroom had wood floors as opposed to carpet for that very reason. The type of asthma that I had caused attacks with my breathing.

My mother and stepfather (who adopted and raised me) were looking for a church that they could agree on. My mother came from Catholicism, my stepfather from Southern Baptist. I remember attending different types of churches from week to week but not settling.

I remember loosing a couple of baby teeth, and putting them under my pillow at night, and receiving 2 quarters each time from the ‘tooth fairy’. Also, every night before bed my mother would help me say the ‘Now I lay me down to sleep..’ prayer and also have me repeat the ‘Our Father who art in heaven…’ prayer. To me, tooth fairy/God were the same in my understanding, we just only paid attention to one, unless a tooth came out.

I had lots of questions. I ‘knew’ (in my mind) the tooth fairy had to be real because each time a tooth was left under my pillow, the quarters would appear by morning. I wasn’t so sure about God, so, what I began doing to ‘test’ God was to put 2 pennies under my pillow and ask him to make them disappear. Of course every time I would look under my pillow, the pennies were still there. In my ‘child’ thinking, I remember being so frustrated at this, thinking if the tooth fairy can do it, why can’t God? This became routine for a while. I never said anything to anyone about it (parents). I just remember crying about it at night, being angry about it, and wondering why I was saying nighttime prayers to someone or something that didn’t leave any traces, even the tooth fairy left traces and we didn’t pray to the tooth fairy.

I got to thinking about the tooth fairy, and questioning that if God wasn’t real, how could she be real? We didn’t pray to her. I had questions and I wanted real answers. My mom insisted the tooth fairy was real and so was God. (she had no idea why I was asking)

My mom used to keep the red & white starlight peppermint candies in the kitchen. One day I decided to break up a bunch of them on the floor in their cellophane. When I was unwrapping the cellophane there was a broken piece that looked just like a tooth (to me it did). I got this bright idea to test the tooth fairy that night. I took the fake candy ‘tooth’ and put it under my pillow, fully expecting to see quarters. The next morning when I woke up the candy tooth was still there, just like the pennies.

This upset me to a point. I remember going to my mom with the candy ‘tooth’ and telling her that my tooth came out and I put it under my pillow and the tooth fairy didn’t come. I lied to my mom and told her it was a tooth, because I was afraid to tell her that I was trying to trick the tooth fairy (tooth fairy/God, the same). She kept looking at it, looking in my mouth, and asking me if I was sure about that, and why didn’t I tell her. I stuck to my guns on it, although I’m not sure my mother really believed it.

Anyway, that night we put it under my pillow and the next morning I got 2 quarters. At first I connected with the logic (in my mind) that in order for a ‘tooth’ fairy to appear, my mother had to know about it. The more I contemplated it the more I began to wonder if my mom was the tooth fairy, because ‘why wasn’t I able to get quarters from the tooth fairy without my mom knowing?’ If my mom was the tooth fairy, who was God, my mother? I made such a fuss over that tooth fairy situation (how come the fairy only showed up when she knew about it?) that my mother finally admitted she was the tooth fairy. She still insisted she wasn’t God. I never mentioned the pennies, but I was stuck on that logic too, that both the tooth fairy and God were imaginary, not real.

Not long after that time, I remember kindergarten enrollment day. I met my soon-to-be teacher and was also introduced to some crying kid that was going to be in my class. I remember looking at him and asking him why he was such a crybaby. The boy’s mother was talking to my mother and she handed her a piece of paper.

A couple nights later on a Wednesday evening my mother took me to a large church. The lady who had given my mom the paper had recommended it to her. On that particular evening my stepfather was working (he was going to school and working at the time). I can even remember the dress I was wearing that night and what my mom did to my hair with all the hairspray before we left the house.

I remember sitting through the service and coloring in one of my coloring books the whole time, as I did at all the other churches we went to. When it was over, instead of leaving, my mother took me by the hand and walked me up to the front where these men (elders) were praying for people. I distinctly remember 3 men coming over and putting their hands on my head and praying. I didn’t know why, and had never had this done to me before.

I remember days later going to my usual Dr. Johnson, and sitting in the waiting room like always. I also remember that when we left we went to a hospital instead of going home. At the hospital they set me up on a stainless steel table and pushed a steel square device behind me and one in front of me for ex-rays of my chest area. I remember the ‘cold’ stainless steel and even having to take my shirt off to do it, which I wasn’t too happy about because it was so cold. I didn’t know why, I was a kid. What I do know is that the doctors found all traces of my asthma were gone when everything was said and done. I remember my mom explaining to me some time later what had happened with the results.

To this day I am 45 years old and have no allergies to anything, no asthma attacks, nothing. Asthma doesn’t disappear or go away, not that kind, and I remember all the symptoms of it. While typing this I am wondering about the possibility of ever getting those records from 1970 and before. I suppose even if I had the documents in hand, others could right it off as a long-term misdiagnosis or something.

This is what I learned from this. My questions toward God to prove himself with the pennies could have been momentary magic. What he did for me was entirely tangible because my physical body bares the tangible proof, even today. Who in this world can take that proof from me? This is the whole purpose of miracles, to bare witness of God to the individual, and also to those that surround the individual. (my doctor, my nurse, my mother, my father)

He showed me on his terms, not mine. Better yet, what would I have rather received; two missing pennies, or a lifetime physical healing that keeps me in remembrance? This is what led me to really BELIEVE and is not something that someone else told me (the tooth fairy incident blew that out of the water), or what was debated from the Bible (not old enough to even read the book).

Contrary to what people believe, TRUE followers are not aimless wandering weak-minded religious sheep, looking for something to believe in. People that do that most likely end up in cults. We know what we know, because we bare witness to it in ourselves, all unique situations. The best part is that after we really KNOW him (in my case 1989), he still continues to do things in our lives that can’t be explained away as coincidence. That’s the mystery that we can’t explain in words and no amount of Biblical debate will uncover. Once you know, the rest of the debate is only semantics.

Originally posted by nlouise

Whenever something goes wrong, God is the only name that comes up, as if Satan never existed or has no part in it. Not saying that athiests blame God, that woulds be absurd because an athiest would not believe in God to begin with(?!?!?!?) Those that point the finger at God could only be non-athiest. Correct?

It would appear to me that God is upfront on what he does, no secrets. It's the one that does things in secret that is the real danger. Logically it goes for people too. Know your enemy.

Even the atheist can look at the bible as a literary work and can comment on the actions of the characters accordingly.

Satan is mentioned as having killed in the bible and very specifically, just as god is, so we need not assume his actions behind the scenes. That being said, how can one overlook the moral ambivalence present in the bible: where the "good guy" (god) comes off as an anti-hero type and the "bad guy" seems relatively tame by comparison?

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Did you just abandon the previous conversation with me? You never resolved several conflicts of logic.

I've been through how I've used logic to arrive at my conclusions. Your contrary viewpoint is based on assumptions which you refuse to acknowledge. We reached an impasse long ago. How much more beating does that dead horse need?