Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


All mankind if guilty of some problem. To say otherwise is simply ignorant. You need only look at the world.

God can chose the worst and destroy them. That's what he does.

I am not assuming anything. I am using what God said he would do in these situations. Which he did. David was punished. Again you fail to look at the whole picture because you have a confirmation bias. David asks for it to fall upon him and then builds an alter to stop the plague.

Sorry, but your whole argument is still reliant on the statement innocent of one crime, innocent of all crimes. There's nothing more to it. That's your case. Because they were no innocent of one crime they were automatically innocent of all crimes. You refuse to look at the whole bible, so how can anybody debate with you if you have a confirmation bias?

hello

Originally posted by Sky watcher
This has to be the most ignorant thread in ATS history.

Really? Why?
It compares God with Satan and shows that God killed more than Satan did.
It gives information - why would you call it 'ignorant'?
Could it be you don't LIKE the information?
Could it be anger that makes you write?

Originally posted by Sky watcher
We all are forever dumber for seeing the title let alone someone reading it.

Ouch.
It sure looks like it
OK, so you don't like the idea that God killed more than Satan.
It can be a little difficult when you first consider the idea - especially if you are a faithful believer.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
God made you and Satan.

Um - but putting it that way is saying God killed EVERYBODY - that's even worse than saying God killed more than Satan.

The point is - God is meant to be the 'God Guy' - but the Bible shows many examples where God was the violent killer. More examples than for Satan.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
All will die at the hand of God because people cant live forever or we would all be standing on-top of people just to walk around.

Er, no-one said anything about people living for ever. The subject is NOT about whether people should die - it's about WHO killed the most. Did you accidentally get confused?

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Are you five years old or something?

Well, your argument sounds like it.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Take your God hating crap elsewhere.

Pardon?
Pointing out that God killed more than Satan is "God-hating"?

Didn't YOU imply that God was really responsible for ALL of the killings? Isn't that even MORE God-Hating?

Please take your God hating crap elsewhere - we are NOT saying God killed as many as YOU say he did.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Yeah this is really what ATS needs to show the world community on Facebook, hey come join the rest of us ignorant thread makers and bash God.

Because the 'world community' is watching what happens here.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
ATS should remove these type threads not out of censorship but just to make ATS not look childish and ignorant.

So that's your real point - all posts that dare to be critical or sceptical should be banned.

Why not just say only church-approved preaching (and only from the KJV of course) should be allowed.


G

Originally posted by nlouise
Because there is an order to things, so that we don't attribute them to things that can be written off. (Ocams razor)

I don't believe that is Occam's razor at all. Occam's razor would state that the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one. Arguably, the most complicated one involves an invisible, powerful supernatural force having direct effect on the physical world. The idea of a deity curing illness is not the simplest explanation.

Originally posted by nlouise
But God is supernatural, otherwise we would physically see him in our dimension. He opperates supernaturally

If we operate on that assumption and we also assume the he has some effect of the physical world he has to be "visible" at least in the sense that at that moment of transcending the physical barrier, he could be tested. He would have to be at that moment an entity inhabiting the physical, natural world. If that is the case it renders the original assumption false, creating a huge fallacy.

Originally posted by nlouise
All death has Satan at the root of it, whether God does it physically or not.
How can Satan not be held accountable for ALL death, both physical and spiritual when you start at the beginning with Adam and Eve? Until Satan appeared on the scene, there was no such thing as death, spiritual, or physical. It was Satan who brought this into the world when he deceived Eve.
Afterwards, God clearly laid out what was acceptable and what wasn’t and those that chose to ignore what he laid out, died physically. Old Covenant.

This argument has been presented in this thread several times. This basically states that since satan tempted Eve, god can kill humans at any time with moral impunity and satan gets the blame for it. This is the cosmic equivalent of a "get out of jail free" card and at no point is the biblical god accountable for his actions. This doesn't square with either natural human morality nor the biblical morality god is said to enforce.

Originally posted by nlouise
I have a question OP.



How do we know 'AIR' exists? Can we use the 5 senses to prove it?

Sure. We can feel it entering our lungs and we know the panic that ensues when we're deprived of it. Even without the senses we can detect it quite easily with scientific equipment.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

All mankind if guilty of some problem. To say otherwise is simply ignorant. You need only look at the world.

Jesus was a man, was he not? That single example blows your argument apart.

So you're saying the specific crime of the 70K dead was "something". Sorry but you're simply digging a deeper hole for yourself.

Originally posted by Sky watcher

Yeah this is really what ATS needs to show the world community on Facebook, hey come join the rest of us ignorant thread makers and bash God.

Ahhh, I see. You frequent Facebook and apparently saw something that wasn't tame such as "I'm eating Mexican food now. Yummee!"

I might suggest sticking to intellectually vacant sites such as Facebook instead of visiting sites which actually have content designed to promote critical thinking.

Also, extracting content directly from the bible could hardly be called "bashing god". Seriously, stick to Facebook.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
I have a question OP.



How do we know 'AIR' exists? Can we use the 5 senses to prove it?

Sure. We can feel it entering our lungs and we know the panic that ensues when we're deprived of it. Even without the senses we can detect it quite easily with scientific equipment.

But you can't see the air, you can only feel it. You can't see it but you know it exists.

I can't see God, but I sense his presence in my life. I can feel that presence in the same way you feel air going into your lungs.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
All death has Satan at the root of it, whether God does it physically or not.
How can Satan not be held accountable for ALL death, both physical and spiritual when you start at the beginning with Adam and Eve? Until Satan appeared on the scene, there was no such thing as death, spiritual, or physical. It was Satan who brought this into the world when he deceived Eve.
Afterwards, God clearly laid out what was acceptable and what wasn’t and those that chose to ignore what he laid out, died physically. Old Covenant.

This argument has been presented in this thread several times. This basically states that since satan tempted Eve, god can kill humans at any time with moral impunity and satan gets the blame for it. This is the cosmic equivalent of a "get out of jail free" card and at no point is the biblical god accountable for his actions. This doesn't square with either natural human morality nor the biblical morality god is said to enforce.

Here is an anology:

A person is having symptoms of a potentially life threatening disease. He goes to a doctor and is given medication. The medication 'masks' the symtoms, but does not cure the disease.

The critical thinking person would want to know where that disease came from and what to do to get rid of the disease. The only way to logically treat the problem is to discover the root cause of the problem.

What I am showing, by using the above example of the 'garden of Eden', is what the true root of the problem is, and that what is being adressed in this thread is only the afterwards manifestation of it.

To say God is a killer is to say that we don't need to research why he did what he did because the killings exist. Lets just throw a accusasion at him and not research any further. Same as those who prefer to take medication without researching the root cause, which only leads to more medications in the long run.

Originally posted by nlouise

But you can't see the air, you can only feel it. You can't see it but you know it exists.

I can't see God, but I sense his presence in my life. I can feel that presence in the same way you feel air going into your lungs.

Fair enough. But are senses a trustworthy barometer for determining the truth? Our senses sometimes convince us that there a ghosts, or perhaps that thing we saw in the sky makes us believe in aliens. A good magician an make us believe a woman was sawed in half and put back together again, or a "psychic" makes us sense that they have read our minds. Sometimes we see someone in the corner of our eye but nobody was there. Our perceptions are so easily fooled: how can we be assured that they're reporting accurately on the presence of an invisible powerful deity?

Originally posted by nlouise
To say God is a killer is to say that we don't need to research why he did what he did because the killings exist. Lets just throw a accusasion at him and not research any further. Same as those who prefer to take medication without researching the root cause, which only leads to more medications in the long run.

This raises the question of why he allows some to live and others not. If we accept a cover-all excuse of satan spoiling humans, why not kill them all? At some point god must make moral determinations about people. If he can conceive morally and act on those decisions with the death penalty then his actions can be judged by morality. Blaming on satan's prior actions becomes moot as it no longer becomes the sole cause of the killing.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise

This argument has been presented in this thread several times. This basically states that since satan tempted Eve, god can kill humans at any time with moral impunity and satan gets the blame for it. This is the cosmic equivalent of a "get out of jail free" card and at no point is the biblical god accountable for his actions. This doesn't square with either natural human morality nor the biblical morality god is said to enforce.

Adam and Eve and Satan knew this :

Romans 6:23 (King James Version)

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

How do we know Adam and Eve knew this?

Genesis 3:3 (King James Version)

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

How do we know Satan knew this and lied?

Genesis 3:4 (King James Version)

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Edit: This shows the root. This shows why Satan gets the blame. The next question should be, why would Satan do this?









[edit on 30-8-2010 by nlouise]

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise

Blaming on satan's prior actions becomes moot as it no longer becomes the sole cause of the killing.

How does the root cause of anything become moot? If I get lung cancer from smoking, how do I no longer attribute the lung cancer to smoking? Seriously, how does this logic apply?

Originally posted by nlouise
How does the root cause of anything become moot? If I get lung cancer from smoking, how do I no longer attribute the lung cancer to smoking? Seriously, how does this logic apply?

That's no longer the root cause. God allows some to live, others get killed. He makes this determination based on the actions of individual people and it is those actions which become the root problem leading to god killing them.

Originally posted by nlouise
Edit: This shows the root. This shows why Satan gets the blame.

No it doesn't. Let's take the case of the 70K people killed by god because he was angry at David. What was the cause of the problem? David's taking of a census. Not satan tempting Eve. In fact, god loved David as a favorite and did not administer a punishment because of satan and eve's actions. He administered it because of David's actions.

Also, if we go back far enough to that story, why can we not blame Eve instead of satan? Or even further back, why not blame god himself for setting up a rule that he knew mankind was so easily capable of breaking? After all, he did not warn Adam and Eve about satan in any way. God, from this story onward, has morally dubious actions of his own - even before the killing gets started.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
How does the root cause of anything become moot? If I get lung cancer from smoking, how do I no longer attribute the lung cancer to smoking? Seriously, how does this logic apply?

That's no longer the root cause. God allows some to live, others get killed. He makes this determination based on the actions of individual people and it is those actions which become the root problem leading to god killing them.

How is it no longer the root cause? God gave Adam and Eve dominion over everything on the Earth. He also made it clear that there was only one thing that was off limits and what the end result would be. 2+2=4.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
Edit: This shows the root. This shows why Satan gets the blame.

No it doesn't. Let's take the case of the 70K people killed by god because he was angry at David. What was the cause of the problem? David's taking of a census. Not satan tempting Eve. In fact, god loved David as a favorite and did not administer a punishment because of satan and eve's actions. He administered it because of David's actions.

Also, if we go back far enough to that story, why can we not blame Eve instead of satan? Or even further back, why not blame god himself for setting up a rule that he knew mankind was so easily capable of breaking? After all, he did not warn Adam and Eve about satan in any way. God, from this story onward, has morally dubious actions of his own - even before the killing gets started.

Eve was blamed for her part in it. God laid out what the repercussions would be.

Genesis 3:16 (King James Version)

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.



Another anology: You have 3 bushes in your yard. One is a blueberry bush, one is a raspberry bush, the last is a holly bush. The holly bush will kill you. What is so hard about staying away from the holly bush?

[edit on 30-8-2010 by nlouise]

Originally posted by nlouise
How is it no longer the root cause? God gave Adam and Eve dominion over everything on the Earth. He also made it clear that there was only one thing that was off limits and what the end result would be. 2+2=4.

I've already explained this several times over. God gives explicit reasons for those he kills. They are all listed in the OP and none are referenced as being due to satan or Eve.

Originally posted by nlouise
Eve was blamed for her part in it. God laid out what the repercussions would be.

Genesis 3:16 (King James Version)

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

I see.

So I'm missing the part where god laid out that he would kill people at capriciously and blame it solely on this event.