Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Not ad hominin. it's a description of your character. Not made up. God says all humanity is damned for they are sinful criminals.

Hell, it wasn't even until the 1600s that people realized they could question their king and be an individual.

[edit on 26-8-2010 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
Spirituality, no matter which side of the fence it is on, is something that can't be explained. When you KNOW, no one can tell you different.

"Spirituality" really has no value as a word. Describe specifically what you're referring to.

Human actions can definately be under the influence of the spirit world, and those actions are indicative as to which one.

Prove it.

First, I have no idea what you believe or where you are coming from on this topic unless I missed it somewhere in this post...agnostic, gnostic, athiest? What is your belief? I will assume athiest?

Spirituality is a manifestation, whether it be God, or Satan.

Have you ever heard someone say "I don't know why I did that. What on earth was I thinking at the time?" That would be a simplified example of it, usually on the unsuspecting person.

Another example of it would be 'something coming to mind, moments before an event occurs', when the event itself was not something you were even contemplating moments before. The thought enters your mind, you have a second to absorb it, then something happens and you are prepared. That is not something that I personally have the ability to do on my own. I don't have ESP in that way.

Another example, at least from the side I am on, is an unexplainable understanding or awareness when reading the Bible or, even trying to console someone during their darkest moment. The right words come from your mouth (though you yourself would have never come up with them), even if you are consoling someone on an issue that you have never experienced.

Its a peaceful, calm, loving and kind of a euphoric feeling that never leaves you, even when the rest of your world is falling apart. You have no fear of whats happening because you know that the one you have given you soul to has it under control. And, after the natural realm has taken its course, your peace still has never left you, and everything turns out better than before things started looking bad. -No, it is not a state of mind. I can tell you a manifestation of the spirit is stronger and more powerful than any drug, and it never goes away. People around you are drawn to you because they feel at peace. That is the spiritual manifestation as best as I can explain.

Without the spirit of God in my life I still have the ability to determine my own version of right & wrong, and determine my own thinking on particular issues, but not in the same way. I also am human and make mistakes, say things to people I really don't mean when I am angry, hurt people even without realizing it. When I do things that aren't up to snuff, its that same spiritual manifestation that brings these things to mind (sort of like our conscience, but more defined and can't be blown off) so that I take notice and make things right with that person I've hurt. In the end I have saved a friendship.

If you have no belief at all in the spiritual realm, perhaps you will never sense any type of real spiritual manifestation. But, there always comes a time in a person's life where they feel alone, like something is missing, helpless to something, maybe something isn't right. What you do at that time can lead you one way or another.

I would also like to mention that there are counterfeits as well. There is a fourth dimension that we are surrounded by, and whether we believe in it or not, makes no difference to that fourth dimension. It still goes on. Personally, I would rather go through this life with security and knowing who I am, and who God is (not just believing, but knowing) than to do it all on my own, especially since you never know what life will throw at you and can never be prepared for most things. In that way (life and its ups & downs) we are all the same. I choose refuge.



EDIT: fixed the word counterfeit. Still not sure if I spelled it right?!?!?!?!?

[edit on 26-8-2010 by nlouise]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Clement of Rome was Peter's direct disciple

Hmm, what is the evidence for that pls?
Clement's writings don't say that, nor does Peter's.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
and Polycarp was John's.

Well, Polycarp doesn't mention that, not does John.
Where is the evidence for this?


Gf

Originally posted by Gorman91
Not made up. God says all humanity is damned for they are sinful criminals.

Yes, you did make it up by applying an unrelated phrase. Plus, god didn't literally say that. Even more, god is a complete jackass for saying anything like that and still demanding worship.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Oh yes it does matter. Because as you have failed to answer, you have no means of knowing what they were guilty or innocent of.

So you just assume everyone is guilty of SOMETHING, and should be punished.

Does that include you?

Originally posted by Gorman91
You're whole argument is that because they were not guilty of one crime they were not guilty of A crime. What are you, Basil Marceaux?

Your whole argument is that because people can be guilty of a crime, then everyone IS guilty and should be punished. Who are you, Jehovah?

In your argument, EVERYONE is guilty.
Does that include you ?

reply to post by nlouise


Most of what you've described are simply transcendental experiences or matters of intuition or emotion. All too often these are attributed to god, gods, spirits, etc. The problem comes in proving how something that originates within you can be sourced to something outside you and invisible. You claim to know god but have no way to verify it objectively nor prove it to others...

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Romans 3:23

Yes, it is stated. It's stated quite a bit.

And no, it's not a bad thing to say. Maybe you missed the last couple ten thousand years, but out of the 106 something billion people who have ever lived, most were from murder and war.

History proves you wrong. Atheists go to war, Christians go to war, all go too war. All have sinned. All are criminals. When you buy that super cheap plastic toy at a store, you've helped in the murder of children in unsafe working conditions. You may not know it, but you have. Buy telling companies that you'll buy whatever you they sell no matter how it was made, you help in murder and sin.

I fail to see why he's a jackass. It really seems like the only way to become the best of humanity. Yes you will do wrong. Yes you are capable of doing horrible things. But that knowledge does not mean you should. Worship is more or less thanks. In the way of thanking God for a way out.

It's much like Stargate's ancients. All life forms are chaotic in a chaotic universe. A couple of people decided to find a way out of the system and found a way to become immortal in a realm outside of time where they did not need their bodies. They then chose to leave that door they made open for anyone who seeks the same, but refuse to intervene unless there is an amazing exception to a person. Otherwise, let them all die, for they are like animals to each other. And that which acts like an animal deserves to be treated like an animal and be dead and forgotten.

Makes perfect sense. 10,000 years of war murder and genocide prove that. Humanity sucks. I'f you can't do the time, don't do the crime. I don't sin as much as I used to as an atheist or an ignorant Catholic before that. I try my best. Sure I sin. I'm not God. But I try. My heart is good. And for that I'll get out of this hell.

reply to post by Greenfly13


Yes. Everyone is guilty. But no, my argument is that God does not kill people for no reason. Nor does he kill good people with the bad. You can be a criminal and a sinner and still be a good person. Depends on the heart.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
reply to post by nlouise

 

Most of what you've described are simply transcendental experiences or matters of intuition or emotion. All too often these are attributed to god, gods, spirits, etc. The problem comes in proving how something that originates within you can be sourced to something outside you and invisible. You claim to know god but have no way to verify it objectively nor prove it to others...

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

I look at all the martyrs of the Bible and the most logical question I would have is this........If these men didn't believe so strongly that God was real, would they have allowed themselves to be heinously tortured, hung upside down on crosses, burned at stakes, and thrown into lion pits? For a person to go so far, knowing that this would be the end game, they must have known something or believed beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Originally posted by nlouise

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

I look at all the martyrs of the Bible and the most logical question I would have is this........If these men didn't believe so strongly that God was real, would they have allowed themselves to be heinously tortured, hung upside down on crosses, burned at stakes, and thrown into lion pits? For a person to go so far, knowing that this would be the end game, they must have known something or believed beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Who said they didn't believe?
I'm sure they believed fully that they were doing the right thing, but it doesn't make what they believe true.

reply to post by nlouise


Someone else thinking or feeling something also doesn't prove anything but the conviction of those people. That is also subjective. How can any of this be proven objectively?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


It can't. God was never objectively proven.

I don't claim to have proof of God. The observable universe has zero proof for God.

There is one possible proof based on current mathematics. Some theorize that long after the universe has decayed, that dark energy will decay. In doing so, the universe will collapse into itself and the "branes" in string theory will cause a new big bang. If this is true, it means that the whole multiple universes are a ring of self operating machines, with timed sequences and parts. After each big bang, all the forces of the universe are one. Some parts separate at different times and other parts do not, waiting till later on. Once mass has formed and the universe begins to take hold, the forces separate fully and the universe reboots. Over and over again endlessly.

That would indicate a machine. And because this is not some cellular organ that can evolve, but rather the very physical laws of the universe, this machine would require a creator.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
reply to post by nlouise

 

Someone else thinking or feeling something also doesn't prove anything but the conviction of those people. That is also subjective. How can any of this be proven objectively?

You're right, it can't be proven by an individual. That's why I said it can't be explained. It tried to explain from my vantage point, but it is impossible. I can only give my experience.

The only real proof is personal, and the person who wants that proof has to go to God for him/herself. No one can do it for them. God makes himself known to those who sincerely want to know. I'm not talking about belief. People believe in all kinds of crazy things, and yes that doesn't mean they are right.

I always believed, but didn't always know. There is a big difference. People can call themselves Christian all day long, but it means nothing. I have met many people like that, and was one such person myself many years ago. To be a Christian means to be 'Christ like'. That is a hard title to live up to, especially when a person uses the title and has no value behind it. They are nothing more than hypocrites.

Because a person comes in the name of God means nothing also. Just look at all the phoney baloney televangelists on tv. Its enough to make ones head spin. Begging the poor for money, selling God, extravegant lifestyles, stepping all over the poor. Its shameful. God didn't put them there, they put themselves there.

Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version)
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is a difference between believing and knowing. If you believe and don't know it is pointless. Many self-professing Christians walk around ignorantly assuming they are believers because they showed up at an event somewhere and lip-synced some words. The actual belief is in the knowing.


James 2:18-20 (King James Version)
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


That verse if not talking about works of the flesh here. We can all do good things whether we belong to God or not. Where is the works behind the faith? Only God can manifest that, and if a person is real, God will manifest those works Himself through the individual. What good is just walking around saying you believe in something? Even the devils believe.


EDIT: Sorry this is so long winded, but I would just like to add to what I mean by Knowing. We meet people everyday and it doesn't mean we know them. In order to know someone you must have a relationship with them. When I say know, I mean that I am in relationship with Him, not that I know of Him. That is the difference between true christianity and religion.

[edit on 26-8-2010 by nlouise]

That would indicate a machine. And because this is not some cellular organ that can evolve, but rather the very physical laws of the universe, this machine would require a creator.

That would bring us to the movie matrix, the machine world is the matrix the father(arhitect, designer) and mother "the matrix" are on the same side. A hammer and a

It would make sense, we are out of the matrix, not in the matrix, the matrix creates the universe. The machine world is above and we are below

The blue pill takes you to the matrix, the red pill is hardcore reality.


As for quantum mechanics it's this - and this | equals this "+" it's very simple, humanity complicates things. This "+" is energy, the result of this - and this | the pole and the line.

And of course this is just my opinion.

Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by nlouise

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

I look at all the martyrs of the Bible and the most logical question I would have is this........If these men didn't believe so strongly that God was real, would they have allowed themselves to be heinously tortured, hung upside down on crosses, burned at stakes, and thrown into lion pits? For a person to go so far, knowing that this would be the end game, they must have known something or believed beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Who said they didn't believe?
I'm sure they believed fully that they were doing the right thing, but it doesn't make what they believe true.

Wrong choice of words. They knew Him. Big difference. You are right, just believing something doesn't make that something true.

reply to post by pepsi78


lol quantum mechanics. I love you Feynman.

I don't think it creates the matrix. The matrix implies some sort of captured essence. An enclosure for the mere mortals, with the outside being some sort of escape. The Bible flat out says the world, even heaven, are all going to die. Even the reality outside your view of the matrix. It is all going to die. And all that will be left is the creator himself. Somebody put it in the sense that all our hardware is broken, so God will put our software on his until the repairman comes.

From a purely practical purpose, it puts meaning to life. If we were created perfectly, why would we exist? If we were imperfect then perfected later, we would know we had a purpose to become perfect. As to our purpose after all that, who knows. We won't be bound by the same reality, so what do I care?

reply to post by Gorman91

Not really, everything is built on the father and mother aspect, every aspect of our lives, surondings and the universe. The movie matrix is enlighten to say the least, it brings facts but it's twisted around. The light is not blue or red as in the pills from the matrix movie, I'll tell you one thing, the blue pill takes you out of this reality. I'm not in position to comment on this as people invent things and then they blow up stuff with it. For example the matrix is the machine, it makes copies, what comes out of the matrix is the universe.

A matrix is not the product, but it is the tool that creates the product along with the hammer. Male and female. I would say the matrix is the female and the arhitect is the hammer. We are outside the matrix but inside it as well, connected to it. This place and the universe is fantastic.

reply to post by pepsi78


Not really. Pretty much the only thing with male and female are Fish and what descended from them and the small number of trees. Everything else is pretty much anything up for grabs. Even most ancient religions neither began with nor stayed with male and female roles. Indeed many were unisex or more than one gender. Christianity kind of started the family unit. But even then it was not solely mother father. It was more or less creator, producer, and repairman. God creates, Marry produces, Jesus fixes the brokenness of man. Now even then you don't exactly have a traditional role because usually it is the male who produces the goods, the female where life flows from, and the child is simply a product. Something to trade with or train.

So really the only thing I see a male female essence to is a few plants and Everything descendant from Fish, including fish, except for those freaky things that can change their gender.

Originally posted by nlouise
The only real proof is personal, and the person who wants that proof has to go to God for him/herself. No one can do it for them. God makes himself known to those who sincerely want to know. I'm not talking about belief. People believe in all kinds of crazy things, and yes that doesn't mean they are right.

And there's the rub. One can find personal proof. One can not find evidence. Many people know with all sincerity that they've been abducted by aliens. Some others know with sincerity that they are the messiah. Many more believe that they know god.

The point really becomes how to distinguish whether the things we know are originating inside our brains or whether it indeed is truly an outside agent. Without the objective evidence it's hard to make a statement of fact that it actually is an outside agent.

I place a high priority on determining that what I know is true. The existence of powerful but invisible beings that have tangible effect on the physical world is hard to acknowledge as truthful to me. It will take that objective evidence to convince someone like me.

Originally posted by Gorman91
That would indicate a machine. And because this is not some cellular organ that can evolve, but rather the very physical laws of the universe, this machine would require a creator.

I don't see how. You've described a mechanical process subject to physical laws - much like all else in the universe - and so far not even the most complex systems have required any kind of creator.