Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
Sorry, but what evidence? All the evidence that I have seen and read about states that the Holocaust happened. Every single serious historian agrees that it happened. Irving - who is not a trained historian - destroyed his reputation when he tried to claim otherwise. Holocaust denialism is derided around the world, because it flies in the face of the evidence - of which there is a lot.

...which conclusively proves you have not read a single article or book or transcript that I have pointed you to.

I say again: you are not objective and I will add to that: You are dishonest.

Originally posted by MoonMine
...which conclusively proves you have not read a single article or book or transcript that I have pointed you to.

I say again: you are not objective and I will add to that: You are dishonest.

Nope, I actually read quite a bit. I've found that holocaust denial tends to be based on flawed thinking, bad research and a mindset that is skewed towards antisemitism. And "dishonest"? Rofl, sorry, you have that backwards I'm afraid. Do you have ANY evidence that isn't based on Zundel, Leuchter or anyone else who hasn't been exposed as either a) a fraud, b) a liar or c) a pro-Hitler fanatic?

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
Nope, I actually read quite a bit. I've found that holocaust denial tends to be based on flawed thinking, bad research and a mindset that is skewed towards antisemitism. And "dishonest"? Rofl, sorry, you have that backwards I'm afraid. Do you have ANY evidence that isn't based on Zundel, Leuchter or anyone else who hasn't been exposed as either a) a fraud, b) a liar or c) a pro-Hitler fanatic?

A better question one could ask themselves is WHY is every messenger (regardless of scientific background, etnicity or creed) being turned into a fraud, liar or nazi by the immensely powerful pro-Holocaust lobby?

Each and every time someone comes forward or quotes research that asks some profound questions about the gas chambers or the grand extermination plan it is like a huge well oiled machine comes into action.

If the revisionist is a Jew - label him delusional, self-hating - done. German? Neo-nazi scum Hitler worshipper - done. Arab? Pro-Palistinian Israel hater. Done.

It is good to see that more and more people are starting to ask questions though - despite the fortress that has been built around the Holocaust and gas chambers. And despite the huge defamation machine that keeps working overtime to keep the story intact. That includes thousands if not tens of thousands Sayanims posting like - well very much like you AngryCymraeg. That includes media that only follows mainstream orders - including keeping the long since revised 6 million number alive. That includes magazines, movies, musea and merchandise all jerking the tears of the Goyim to keep the story alive. (Read: The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein).

In placing this thread into a dark corner at ATS you can also see the machine has found its way here on ATS.

What does it all matter? What if there was no extermination plan and Jews have not been systematically gassed in places like Auschwitz and Treblinka? What if hundreds of thousands simply died of disease and starvation, especially at the end of the conflict? That would still be very bad and both Germans and Allies would have to take the blame.

It DOES matter because if the extermination in gas chambers did not take place this would shed an entirely different light on contemporary human history.

It would raise serious questions as to the existence of Israel
It would raise serious questions as to the Carte-Blance Zionists have had since WWII
It would raise serious questions on the ongoing financial support and reparations being paid to Israel

If anything it would have a profound impact on public opinion.
I would go as far as saying it would change the world we live in overnight.

Questions like "What else has been lied about?" would be raised and the validity of wars would be questioned. The Palestinian issue would be looked at in an entirely different light. It may even start a whole new conflict. And what about the Germans today? They will sure have some questions of their own including the state model they have been forced in and their "eternal guilt" that has been imposed on their people for generations.

So you see It IS important to keep the story alive - vital even.

And that is precisely why any research is suppressed, ridiculed and prohibited by law.
And that is why your demand for any UN-ridiculed research from anyone questioning the gas chambers or extermination policy cannot be provided - not because it is invalid research, but rather because the well-oiled machine makes sure it is ridiculed, buried and kept out of mainstream.

Luckily there is the Internet which gives any objective researcher the possibility to view ALL sides of the story and provides access to a plethora of material which poses serious questions and exposes many myths surrounding the alleged mass extermination of the Jews in gas chambers during WWII.

Materials that have obviously been banned and their authors persecuted, imprisoned and even threatened with bodily harm or worse. Some have been assaulted, their homes firebombed or cars blown up. If the Holocaust is so evident then why is it necessary to eliminate the messengers in such a way?

The draconian denial laws only are more fuel on the fire of doubt. Revisionism (not denial) is a natural process of asking questions and using scientific methods of validating history. Historical revisionism is accepted for any topic or subject - except for the Jewish Holocaust. Now why is that? If the truth can hold up in court there is nothing to fear from these evil Neo-Nazis and self-hating Jews who dare to ask some serious questions is there?

If they can be so easily exposed then why is the debate still going on to this day as to what exactly happened? I for one am convinced that IF revisionism ever turns mainstream all hell will break loose.

And heaven help Israel if the story turns out to be a lie, because here on Earth they will have no support anymore.

reply to post by MoonMine


Let me start off by saying that the six million number is very well attested to The full total may never be known as the Soviet Union did not record people's religion in their census. Other countries did and the number of Jewish people in Europe - even when taking into account emigration to Israel after the war - plummeted because of the Holocaust. The number might be just under six million, or it might be just over - we'll never know exactly.
The proof is what this whole thing rests on, and it is hideously vast. We have the eyewitnesses. We have the aerial photographs. We have the archaeology on the ground. We have the plans of the gas chambers and the crematoria. We also have the records, such as the Höfle Telegram. We don't have a big document signed by Adolf Hitler saying "Kill all the Jews" but then that wasn't the way that he did things - he preferred verbal orders.
We also have the legal background to the Holocaust. The Nuremburg Laws were a part of the German legal framework. Jews were persecuted, denigrated, starved and deported during the war and especially at the height of Hitler's control over Europe. It was the Germans who herded the Jews into the ghettos and it was the Germans who built the concentration camps, the work camps and the extermination camps. They created a mindset that reduced Jews to the level of subhumans. My grandfather saw that at Bergen-Belsen. It haunted him for the rest of his life.
You seem to think that there is a groundswell of doubt about the Holocaust. I'm sorry, but I have to disabuse you of that myth, as I can't see any sign of that anywhere. You also seem to think that the media - of whom I used to be a member - is pushing some kind of official story about the Holocaust. I've never heard anyone claiming this and I saw nothing like that when I was a journalist. What I did see was a tendency to rely on accredited historians for historical fact. Proof always won over wild theories.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

I thought the nazis gassed prisoners immediately off the trains, now they also worked them to death? Oh thats right, the prisoners hauled off the dead bodies without the other prisoners finding out. Ha, now we know why this is in the LOL forum. Hair-bed mattresses, skin lampshades, bars of skin soap, shrunken heads, all nuremberg testimony, LOL. Now the communists had a quicker solution, bullet to the head, mass grave, blame the nazis.

It's a classic "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" situation. I've gotten so fed up with David Irving's con, I started posting myself on this topic for the first time in my life. And sure, I'll grant the shrunken head thing was a US Military con of its own. But that doesn't mean Irving is on target with his ridiculous claims about Hitler's doctor knew this Fuhrer had "rapidly progressive coronary atherosclerosis" based on the reading of an August 1941 EKG;



Go 35 minutes in. How nutty wutty is this stuff?

Because they tried to upsell the ruse with the shrunken head con at Belsen, doesn't mean there were no gas chambers.

For a variety of reasons we know the most prominent revisionists to simply not be credible. We also know, the Holocaust was real. Because a few dumb US generals were shaking phony shrunken heads at Belsen doesn't mean we rewrite history. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

reply to post by MrPurkinje


I find Irving to be deeply, profoundly, unreliable. I followed his libel case quite closely when it happened and the demolition of his reputation was stunningly comprehensive. What enraged me though was how he has systematically lied about the decision ever since.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Over 40 million people died in WW2; it was a war with a lot of prejudice and persecution. To keep people "motivated", all sides used propaganda and subsequent fear tactics.

The focus that WW2 was "just" about one "special" groups alleged genocide is also propaganda. The term "Holocaust", which most people have had been beaten over the head about, came decades after the war. Actually, according to wikipedia, the general term reference first became primarily identified with WW2 with the television mini-series "Holocaust" is credited with introducing the term into common parlance after 1978, This t.v. series was hugely a bias load of historical inaccuracies.

As much as t.v. programming and Hollywood would like people to feel sorry and give special treatment to a specific group of people; it is disrespectful to all those who lost love ones, like perhaps Hiroshima and Nagasaki or any other "prisons". It pisses me off that people are only sympathetic to a tiny minority of victims as "special"; as if their lives were more important than anybody else's. And with that, lies the problem and why "the truth" needs to be explored; it was not about "one people. People are so brainwashed that it's some pious act to give credence to one group of human beings over another. Most wars are based on greed. You know, like justifiying going to someone else's country and stealing their land and using the excuse of ancient war to justify it. Shame on you to think otherwise. Shame shame shame!

reply to post by EricChanning

Your post puzzles me as I have not stated at any time that the Holocaust justified anything that Israel has subsequently done. I am however massively annoyed when people tried to deny that the Holocaust never happened, as they are trying to deny a hell of a lot of evidence. And by the way I am very well aware how many other people died in that bloodbath of a war. It was not about just one people - not that I stated anything of the kind.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


@AngryCrmraeg; the post "jumped" up one, it was intended for "moonmind" primarily but with general "theme" that there appeared to be an alternative agenda besides historical accuracy and truth at play.

I've watched several testimonials of survivors (both non-Jews and Jews) and noticed the Jews wear their alleged persecution like some badge of honor. [They] freak out if anything but the so-called coveted "official" story is suggested. It brings a theater of anger and aggression and unwillingness to even consider the evidence nor do they feel the need to answer any questions. Instead they just get mad and emotional. It's as if they "poor me control drama" trumps reasonable discussion. This is very infuriating for someone trying to understand the truth as the so-called revisionist want to "re-examine". There defense mechanism is highly suspect; if they weren't hiding something, they'd just answer the question candidly. Make sense?

And none that I saw actually admitted to seeing gas chambers so they didn't know the details but they all wanted you to look at their tattoo. And for the record, the number was around 100,000 (not 6 million, or the 1.5 million then the 1.1 million then the 600,000; all previously reported at Auschwitz. The 100,000 was according to the logs transmitted "in code" to Berlin at daily status updated that were intercepted by British intelligence (not destroyed by the Germans) and was unbeknownst to the German facilities management/warden.

90% of "natural causes" (disease, age...etc) i.e 90,000. So the remaining 10,000 people were shot/excuted (not by gas) for whatever i.e. escape attempts, hurting other prisoners, rape, attacking guards. I'm sure as POWs, right or wrong, there was your typical misfits and with all POWs , usually pretty harsh.

reply to post by EricChanning


Let me start off by saying that there was nothing "alleged" about ther persecution. Please look up the Nuremburg Laws, which placed anti-semitism onto the German law books. The same goes for the ghettos, the mass shootings in the East by the Einsatzgruppen (which reported the numbers of the people they were shooting back to Berlin, which were picked up the British), the concentration camps and of course the extermination camps. I'm sorry if you find the testimonies of Jewish survivors of the Holocaust a bit prickly when they talk about claims that it didn't happen, but I guess that being hideously persecuted and watching people die around you might have something of an impact on you.
As for the 100,000 total please provide a cite for that, because as far as I know, not one single serious historian believes that for a millisecond.

Originally posted by EricChanning
I've watched several testimonials of survivors (both non-Jews and Jews) and noticed the Jews wear their alleged persecution like some badge of honor.

"Alleged"?

I suggest that maybe you read my post here...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Nothing "alleged" - very real.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


I am open to critical thought only under the criteria that if I provide reasonable evidence, that you will be open to it without any conformation biases to accept the evidence OR you can do the same and we'll discuss. Deal?

"claimed that had been only 100,000 Jewish deaths at Auschwitz, "but not from gas chambers. They died from epidemics"" THE CASE FOR AUSCHWITZ: EVIDENCE FROM THE IRVING TRIAL, by Robert Jan van Pelt. Indiana UP, Bloomington & Indianapolis, 2002. Pg. 56.

People were coming out wood work claiming to be Jewish after the war; a lot coming out of Russia as an excuse; saying they were victims and trying to cash in on reparataions, making up stories and no one really knew who was actually Jewish; it was a major cluster-f*

Why are some people persecuted and other not? (besides obvious physical appearances). If you act like a an a-hole; like your in-group is better than other folks, you kind of open yourself to pissing people off. I don't care what god you believe in or what color your skin is, but if you act like your better than me because of some inherent so-called "birthright", you're going to rub people the wrong way.

It would be nice if we were simply kind to each other; treated people equally and not thing because we believe in some Santa Claus that lives in the sky and some quaint traditional and superstitious nonsense. That doesn't give you to the right to kick people off of their land and do the same thing to them that you whine about was done to you. That's hypocritical to say the least.

You'd think Jewish people would be all the more sensitive rather than running around acting like the entitled; especially if they have been pissing people off for a few thousand years. The bottom line is, it's simply not fair to make up reason why you think your are better than someone else. Does that make sense? I think all religiots just need to get over themselves and stop blaming.

reply to post by EricChanning


Right. Van Pelt actually claims no such thing. I don't know where you got that claim, but Van Pelt was a key defence witness in the Irving Trial - and if I recall correctly Irving was the guy who claimed that only 100,000 died at Auschwitz. And of course Irving lost the trial and was officially pronounced to be a Holocaust denier. So - please provide a better cite.
Oh and I personally find your comments about the Jews despicable.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


"despicable"? How is being kind and treating other people equally with respect "despicable"? And if you say they are entitled due to 3,000 years of persecution, I have to ask "why were the persecuted"? And since there is NO empirical evidence regarding gas chambers in Auschwitz, NO bodies and NO way possible to have cremated them with the tiny 15 stoves and not even any Jewish eyewitness that ever even saw a "gas chamber", that the alleged records were "destroyed" but Irving points out that the Brits do have said transmissions; that they had no reason to "lie" because they were unaware of they were even being intercepted.

It appears this David Irving himself is a victim of bigotry for simple asking questions and sharing creditable evidence. What's wrong with asking questions and providing reasonable evidence and/or calling bunk if they see fakes? Well, this is what several people have complained about in "re-examining" the evidence, that pictures were doctored; taken out of context, diary's forged, include Ann Frank's, Hitlers...etc.

So that brings us to today; what is going on now. Let not worry about what happened 50 years ago and the subsequent b.s. propaganda that ot has created; the he-said-she-said disputed rhetoric backed by no real evidence; that the Holohoax gives one people the right to steal from another peoples b.s.; kill their children; kill them; what leads us to what is going on Palestine? What leads Israel to believe taking billions of dollars from the U.S. for reparations? For what??? We're not Germans; we didn't do anything to them; in fact, did we try to help them? It's completely illogical; subhuman and hypocritical of any people to inflict upon others due to religious intolerance and bigotry but you think it's "despicable". Well, who's "despicable"? Really???

reply to post by EricChanning


"Holohoax"?

I see you didn't read my link. I suggest you do.

Then maybe you'd care to explain why your obvious bigotry has erased the deaths of the Polish upper classes, Russian prisoners of war, political dissidents, Slavs, Jehovah's witnesses, homosexuals, gypsies and other ethnic minorities that were also part of the holocaust? - you apparently only seem to believe this happened to Jewish people.

Amen brother,Amen. Finally a truthfull post of facts about the holocaust. Numbers have a way of being unable to lie, they can be manipulated as in this case, but they don't lie. The jews claims of 6 million dead is a gigantic injustice to all the others that died in the camps. Maybe one day everyone can do the math.

reply to post by neformore


@neformore. I use the term “Holohoax” with contempt toward giving any reverence of the manufactured sensationalism giving the term “Holocaust” (by Hollywood) several decades later as strictly a “Jewish” travesty. And this contempt is mirrored with my original assertion that 40,000,000 people died in WW2 and to sensationalize only the extremely exaggerated Jewish plight is to diminish the vast majority of the suffering of vast majority of non-Jewish victims and their families.

I did read the link BTW, it was not relative to any of my assertions. I agree with openyourmind1262 , the numbers don't lie; the empirical evidence is too strong. And if anyone would take the time to use a little critical thought instead of jumping on the "poor Jews" bandwagon (by design), they'd see the obvious b.s..

There is a deliberate agenda clouding this issue with emotionally charged propaganda driven distractions however they cannot trump the simple math and subsequent shenanagans in the mix that any 5th grader could look at and know the Auschwitz genocide by gas chambers claims simply don't add up.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Auschwitz death register chronological; released by the Russian reflects 74,000 or which only 30,000 were Jews released by Gorbachev in the mid '90s..

www.heretical.com...

www.ihr.org...
There were no references in the decrypts to gassing.' [Hinsley et al., British Intelligence in the Second World War: Its Influence on Strategy and Operations, Cambridge, 1979 - 84, 3 vols., vol. ii, appendix, page 673.]
Intercepted transmissions by the British intelligence.

www.fpp.co.uk...

reply to post by EricChanning


Please don't bring the present situation in the Middle East into this, it has nothing to do witrh it. I would like to repeat my point about the little fact that no serious historian has touched holocaust denialism with a 20-foot bargepole, for the simple reason that there is far, far too much evidence that proves that it happened. You mentioned Irving again by the way. The man has been proven, in a court of law, to be a) not a serious historian and b) a holocaust denier who was wrong about his claims.

reply to post by EricChanning


IHR is the Institute of Historical Research, which is not a site that I'd trust in any way, shape or form. FPP is almost as bad. Germar Rudolf has been brought up before and debunked before. Please provide some verified cites that can be taken seriously.