Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

reply to post by SeaWind



I am still investigating this. What is clear is that no "Jewish Dental Gold" was minted during the war. And it's not really the official swiss coins - they abandoned Gold coins in 1939 - but the Vrenelis still had official character.

There is a slight possibility that some of the Vrenelis minted between 47 and 49 could have been (parrtly) made out of "dental gold". The other poster that has hinted at that does seem to have a point.

However, and this is what make me a skeptic on the questions, I can't seem to find documentary evidence of this. The Swiss National Bank has extensively cooperated with the Bergier commission and they came to the conclusion that no "dental gold" was minted into Vrenelis. But then again, I heavily doubt that all of the gold was accuratly documented as to its origins, so it is a possibilty.
The mercury levels don't seem to be conclusive because mercury can be found in all of the pre-WW2 minted Vrenelis (which surely were not made from "dental gold").

I'm still looking into this. That would be another thing about this country that makes me sick to the bones....

Originally posted by Nammu

3. Since 'Holocaust Denial' (read 'questioning') is illegal in a lot of countries, ask yourself why. As soon as even questioning something becomes illegal, it shows that there is more than likely a reason for this and something to hide.


[edit on 9-8-2010 by Nammu]

So you are saying that you can not think of any other reason why such laws were made (not imposed, made by the normal democratic process) except that they were made to hide something? Come on.

There's plenty of documentation on how and who and why these laws were made. It most certainly had nothing to do with hiding anything. I refer you to the Swiss and German laws. Their inception have been very well documented and discussed extensively.

The argument is moot to due to another point: These laws are not intended and can not stiffle scientific inquiry. They are tools to prosecute people who make blanket denials in public forums (not in private) and people who clearly incite racial hatred. There has been not one documented case of someone being "hindered" in investigating the Holocaust by these laws. They simply can't.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

The argument is moot to due to another point: These laws are not intended and can not stiffle scientific inquiry. They are tools to prosecute people who make blanket denials in public forums (not in private) and people who clearly incite racial hatred. There has been not one documented case of someone being "hindered" in investigating the Holocaust by these laws. They simply can't.

Please watch the first minute or so of this vid i posted back on page 2, Where Irving talks about a scientist who is Jailed for publishing a dissertation......and refute that please.

Originally posted by Sashromi
This thread is so absurd and insulting it almost does not deserve a reply. However, seeing as so many HAVE already done so, I feel compeled to make a brief statement.

First, being a WWII history major from a serious university, and a retired US Army intelligence officer who actually served in Germany, I will simply say that whatever BS videos are crafted by anti-semitic persons more than half a century after the fact is a poor excuse to deny factual reality. The Holocaust happened, as witnessed to by the entire world in film, documents, and books- not just by jews. And furthermore, its basic plan was presented by Hitler in Mien Kampf well before the fact.

Second, it doesn't matter to the outrageous assertion of the OP, that other groups of peoples were also targetted (as some have bought up) in the Holocaust or some other period of genocide in human history. The point is that it happened to the jews ALSO. And saying it doesn't take away from the tradgedy that is occured to other groups of peoples like: Soviet POWs, homosexuals, Russian farmers, native-American Indians, black Africans, etc. They are all horrid manifestations of the evil part of our nature.

Finally, I will say that having grown up in a half jewish neighborhood in the US, I got to know jews pretty well. And I will tell you that jews do not harbor ill-will or consider themselves superior to any groups of peoples aside from themselves - anymore than any other ethnic group does: Black, Arab, Asian, Greek, etc. To make it clear, since we are dealing with a somewhat large factual comprehension challanged population in this String: every ethnic or religious group I know of, and have met in my life, has persons that are predjudiced or bigoted against others for irrational or emotional reasons. In fact, one may argue that the jews as a group are less so because they emphasize the importance of education and logical thinking more so than many. And god help us all, if education and logic aren't the keys to eliminating ill-will toward our fellow man.

I surely wish I had turned off my computer before visiting ATS tonight, as I am sure I will be savaged by the mob, and probably have disturbing dreams because of what I have read here.

Thank you, Sashromi, for your excellent post!

SeaWind

the holocaust happened, its true but it mmight happen again , and it happened before

Lemme remind you some things.

Stalin killed 22 millions of peoples, and nones seems to care
Hitlers generals killed 3.2 millions

All focus on germany , all cries for the jewish community , i dont get it at all.

it happened, its done, nothing gonna change the past, and holocaust are about to happen again, we're humans.

Crying over it dont gonna change a damn, and more over, it gonna give more power to zionists.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by OTTOKARMA]

First off, the word "Jewish" is properly capitalized. Please show at least that little bit of respect.

are the jewish so special the deserve a capitalized name or what ?

Okay, I'll just do this one.

Originally posted by filosophia
1. Zyklon-B is a disinfectant, which is why there are purple Zyklon-B streaks in the disenfectant room and not the gas chamber.

First, Zyklon-B was a pesticide, not a disinfectant. So get your facts straight.

95% of the Zyklon-B delivered to Auschwitz was indeed used for it's original intended purpose. But 5% was delivered WITHOUT WARNING ODORANTS. Do you have a better explanation for why some of it would be made with the odorant additive intentionally withheld? And that 5% was the portion used for mass murder.

Zyklon B was manufactured by the German companies DEGESCH (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Schädlingsbekämpfung mbH, or German Corporation for Pest Control) and TESTA (Tesch und Stabenow, Internationale Gesellschaft für Schädlingsbekämpfung m.b.H.), under license from patentholder IG Farben. The Nazis ordered DEGESCH to produce Zyklon B without the warning odorant, in breach of German law. After the war, two directors of TESTA were tried by a British military court and were executed for their part in supplying the chemical.

www.nizkor.org...

If, as the denial set maintains, the S.S. had only wanted Zyklon B for insect control, they would most certainly not have wished to remove not only the warning device, but also the chemical that made the prussic acid more effective. That would have been not only counterproductive but also quite dangerous.

It also seems clear that the only conceivable reason to remove the indicator odor would be to disguise the killing agent from the victims - hydrocyanic acid has only a weak odor described sometimes as like "bitter almonds," or, as in the Degesch manual, "peculiar, repulsively sweet." In short, it shows clear intent, thus refuting yet another denial myth - that there was no organized plan to exterminate anyone.

Saying that Zyklon-B was used as a "disinfectant" and therefore wasn't a method of murder is like saying the trucks that used carbon monoxide to kill their "cargo" didn't really kill anyone because some trucks were not made that way.

And as for the lack of cyanide traces in the gas chambers...might that be due to the structures being destroyed by the Nazis as they retreated and therefore exposed to the weather for a few decades?

Originally posted by OTTOKARMA

First off, the word "Jewish" is properly capitalized. Please show at least that little bit of respect.

are the jewish so special the deserve a capitalized name or what ?

It's not a convention that applies to Jews only. English 101.

Edit:

I read your reply benath. No sweat. I didn't want to play Mr. Smartypants. I just found it important that this does not only apply to "Jew".



[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Another thing

I respect the elders from the concentration camps, those fathers and mothers, kids, aunt , uncles,cousins,granny and grandfathers.

They died in thoses places, its true.
As a german,im not responsible about what happened in that time before my birth
i dont feel guilty or ashamed by my country.
Only thing i can say to the jewish community is : get over it guys, it happened a long time ago, proving it happened each times its silly, it aint gonna change the past.

the young generation of jews is makin buckets of money selling books about the holocaust,movies and stuff, its just another way about makin money, and its a shame but well, its a part of human nature.

Talk about the jews and you're doomed, they're holy saint apparently.
but talk about 22 millions of russians killed in Stalin camps (actualy,russia found massive graves still full of deported peoples corpses from thoses camps made by stalin) and nones cares

And lets not forget about Rwanda holocaust


Lets be frank, who care if it happened or not, we're just trying to prove we're smarter than the other guy on ATS

Only the ones who died in thoses camps can tell us the truth.



[edit on 9-8-2010 by OTTOKARMA]

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

ok my bad didnt noticed the whole post about it

Yes, you are write..... Millions of people got together and decided to lie about the haulocaust, just to lie about it. People pretended to be in camps, soldiers lied about what they saw, people lied about what they did, children lied about eveything just to convince the world that Hitler was killing Jews.... I mean, come on that is a little out of touch with reality. Some people look for stuff just to find what they want. If you have your mind set on something, all the facts can be tweeked to make it look like it is how you think it is.

Lies have been passed down through generations all because these people want other people to believe that there were millions of people killed. Y?

Wait, let me guess, it was the USA whom put this whole fake haulocast thing together right. It was lied about so we could go to war right?

You people are pothetic for real!

Originally posted by ken10


Please watch the first minute or so of this vid i posted back on page 2, Where Irving talks about a scientist who is Jailed for publishing a dissertation......and refute that please.

He is talking about "Germar Rudolf". Germar Rudolf was not prosecuted for delivering a "dissertation" - Germar Rudolf is neither a Historian nor has he any professional connection to the research into the Holocaust, just to make that clear.

I'll do this all from memory and quickly, as this can be googled and checked without any problems; it's a very well documented story.

Germar Rudolf studied Chemistry and got a diploma for that. After finsihing that he started working for the renowned Max-Planck-Institute für Festkörperforschung (Chem/Phys Institut, one of the leading). Thas was in the early 90's.

In late 1990, there was a trial against Ex-Nazi General Otto Ernst Remer (a hardcore Nazi; the General most prominent for his role in finding and killing the Heroes of the 20.July).
I'm not clear on how it started but Rudolf ended up writing a "Report" for the defense of Remer that basically is an extension of the long debunked "Leuchter Report". Besides Leuchter, Rudolf built his case by heavily misquoting French historian Jean-Claude Pressac.

Now note this: This "report" was not written as a "dissertation" - Germar Rudolf was not attending any University at the time - he was working for the MPIfF (named) above. The "report" is a private document that he created for the defense of Remer, it was not a scholarly work and had nothing to do with Academia or his job at the MPIfF.

This "report" came under great scrutiny and when it was refuted in 1993 it was all over the media. Thus MPIfF found out that he wrote a report that basically states that there was no gassing of the jews. Some @ MPIfF suspected that Rudolf had used equipment and material (disputed) from their labs to concoct the report. Therefore they gave him notice that from now on he was no longer allowed to come and go to the lab as he wanted - he had to consult with them before he was going to spend time at the lab. After that was settled, he was found at the lab without having consulted them and therefore was fired. So not even MPIfF fired him specifically because of the report - they just didn't want him using their equipment for private purposes and he did it anyways. So they fired him.

In the wake of this affair, the fact that Rudolf had authored this report became widely known. Authorities learned that Rudolf had himself been active in distributing the "report" - and that was what he was indicted for - not for writing the "report", but for distributing it.

Now the report itself has been pretty much debunked; just google the Jean-Claude Pressac quotes and compare them to the real quotes in Jean-Claude Pressac books. Other sides of the report have also been dealt with.

To make a long story short: Neither was it a "dissertation", nor was it written professionally (it was done in his role as private person), and it was not done by order of MPifF and without their knowledge.

So this is not a case of a "scholar" indicted for research.

The example I am searching for is someone studying at a University and submitting a paper, dissertation or any other work with footnotes, peer-reviewed, sourced ( just like every academic paper) and then subsequently being indicted for that.

Also note that Rudolf was NOT indicted for writing the report but for distributing it.

Germar Rudolf uses the following Pesudonyms:
"Ernst Gauss“, „Manfred Köhler“, „Jakob Sprenger“, „H. K. Westphal“, „Dipl.-Ing. Dr. W. Kretschmer“, „Dr. Ch. Konrad“, „Dr. Dr. R. Scholz“, „Michael Gärtner“ und „Anton Mägerle“.

I hope this helped. I liked the way you posed the question. Very calm and it seems honest. Let's go on like that.



[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

reply to post by mothershipzeta



Auschwitz museum states that the gas chamber was in original shape. The director of the museum, in part 2 of David Cole's documentary, states that while the camp was being bombed, the gas chamber was not destroyed, and was actually used as an air shelter. Walls were added and then later removed, but the floors and ceiling were original, so the residue would be visible on the ceiling.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by filosophia]

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Summary for those who don't wish to read the very well summarized but still frightening story:

No no no, he wasn't jailed for writing a report, just for distributing it.

As if somehow that Orwellian thought-control tactic is somehow better.

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Many thanks for taking the time to give a concise answer, this is the way progress is made. once people have all the evidence from both sides it should then be down to them to make up there minds .......just like a jury.

Personally, I try to go through life as an agnostic, i have my beliefs in how the world ticks, but i am always accepting to an update...And when i go to the grave, i would have done so knowing i had not lived a lie.......Hopefully.

Its like the conspiracies of JFK, 9/11, 7/7 and are there aliens etc etc.
I'm sure everyone wants to know the truth, otherwise we truly are deserved of the title "Sheep".

I suppose that's why we all joined ATS eh.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

 

Summary for those who don't wish to read the very well summarized but still frightening story:

No no no, he wasn't jailed for writing a report, just for distributing it.

As if somehow that Orwellian thought-control tactic is somehow better.

Summary for those who seem to have missed the point: The "report" was not a scholarly work and neither a dissertation.

Fact is, in Germany it is not allowed to distribute National Socialist Propaganda, and since the report was demonstrated to be a concoction of half-truths and mainly the product of quote-mining and since it had very troubling pro-Nazi parts in it, it was deemed to be National Socialist propaganda.
I can understand why Germany would have such a law. Many Germans were very uncomfortable with and annoyed by the situation before the laws. Don't forget that "never again" was one of the founding mottos of the republic.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Originally posted by ::.mika.::
reply to post by duality90

 

very disinformative post;

* u're putting the whole point of my post behind

* u assimilate israel with jews

when the only possible association is with the zionists who themselves were associated with the ss and the nazis from the 1930's to the end of the war.

the distinction is huge

Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”[1]

Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.”[2]
In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.” 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis Zionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo.[3] [4] [5] [6]

Hitler himself personally supported Zionism.[7] [8] During the 1930’s, in cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some 40 camps throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. As late as 1942 Zionists operated at least one of these officially authorized “Kibbutz” training camps[9] over which flew the blue and white banner which would one day be adopted as the national flag of “Israel”.[10]

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...


[edit on 9-8-2010 by ::.mika.::]

I don't think I've been "disinformative", but as I said to another poster earlier, I applaud people for being aware of the Nazi/Zionist connection in the earlier years of the Nazi regime.

I find it in incredulous claim however (which you are plainly pointing at) that the Zionists supported and encouraged the Holocaust; the brash and vulgar racism of the National Socialists would have indeed catalysed the Zionists cause in the international media and created international sympathy for them, but I have a very hard time believing that a program of extermination would be considered as 'a good thing'.

May I perhaps point you to do some research concerning Adolf Eichmann and meetings with certain Zionist agents in 1937-8? Although he met to discuss the possibility of mass jewish emigration to Palestine, his plans were continually foiled by the Party leadership who would not agree to such plans. If you recall as well, later in the war, Himmler began to attempt to barter the lives of Jews for hard cash - and was told the third reich would be paid if they would cease all murder. Himmler could not make such a promise however.

Originally posted by ::.mika.::
reply to post by duality90

 

Zionists Do Not Represent Jews

...

From ancient times, the relations between the Jewish and Islamic peoples have always been those of peace and brotherhood, and friendship always reigned between them. The proof of this is the fact that for centuries, in all the Arab lands, hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in honor and amidst mutual esteem.

...They[the zionist] have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people. Therefore, their words, declarations and actions are not in any way representative of the Jewish people. This is because the Zionists' seizing of power over the Holy Land is antithetical to Jewish law, and also because the Zionists do not behave like Jews at all rather, they desecrate the sanctity of the land.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...


[edit on 9-8-2010 by ::.mika.::]

Israel's political policies are not in any way along the lines of those championed by the NSDAP; Israel is not 'National-Socialist'; it's society is largely free, and it certainly does not have the authoritarianism that characterised the Nazi regime (it is not a police-state, in other words)

ask palestinian opinion about that... largely free... pfff


[edit on 9-8-2010 by ::.mika.::]

Come on, stop being a tool for the sake of it and be objective for once. Obviously, palestinians don't enjoy the same civil liberties as Israelis do; you can tell I was plainly referring to Israeli society and yet still decided to make some pointless, rabble-rousing comment that pertained in no way to my post.

And perhaps we should ask Palestinians about their very reasonable opinions about Israel and the Jews? And how they want to get along with them very nicely and live in peace and harmony?

I personally can't say I blame the Israelis for defending themselves from constantly hostile neighbors. One can't condone their excesses, but I certainly wouldn't have the gall to say "Israel, you disgust me because you defend your borders and protect yourselves from nations and people who would have the streets awash in your childrens blood"

[edit on 9-8-2010 by SeaWind]

Originally posted by duality90
reply to post by filosophia

 

Zyklon B was used as a pesticide/delouser (if I recall correctly), but worked effectively because when exposed to oxygen, the base compound produced hydryogen cyanide or hydrocyanic acid in gaseous form, some variant of hydrogen cyanide anyways - i.e. a very lethal gas when inhaled.

As for the other points you raise, I can't comment on the veracity of any of those assertions, but as something of an amateur historian with a great interest particularly in the SS (the actual organisation responsible for the logistics and actual perpetration of the Holocaust), I can simply say that anyone who has spent any time doing any research on said organisation will know that the evidence for a continuing programme of murder of Jews, gypsies, slavs, Communists, homosexuals, and other 'undesirables' is in plain abundance.

The SS profited enormously from it's (mainly) jewish slave labor, with much of the armed SS formations being employed solely for the purposes of extermination; although the SS fielded several million men in armored formations that fought alongside Heer units (the 'Waffen SS'), it also maintained a sizable portion of SS members whose field organisations were solely for the purpose of either mobile liquidation and counter-partisan fighting in the rear, behind the advancing Heer on the Eastern Front. These SS field divisions were the 'Einsatzgruppen', A-E if I recall. These were the groups who participated in/perpetrated the large public executions on the Eastern front, where the M.O. was to force the prisoners to dig a large ditch, and then simply gun them down and throw them into the open pit.

Due to the inefficiency of this process though (and the inability of some of the SS men to handle the psychological toll of such actions), the SS later began (post-Wannsee conference) to being transporting, en masse, those destined for liquidation to the large 'Death Camps' in Poland. The paperwork detailing such prisoner transfers is immense, and therein lies the greatest proof of all of an organized attempt to eradicate the jewish race from existence. The Deutsche Bahn charged the SS a certain price for every prisoner transported on it's rail, thus profiting rather handsomely from the whole affair. To recoup such costs, the SS harvested whatever they could from the bodies of the recently deceased, having previously confiscated all their material possessions. The SS, being German, were obviously meticulous in keeping track of what was coming and going, and although there is never any explicit mention of murder in any of the SS documentation, the reference to 'special treatment' of several hundreds of thousands or millions at the Konzentrationslagers Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc. provide lasting testament to the mass-murder which took place there.

Furthermore, the SS also maintained a sizable corps of men to staff these camps; the SS Totenkopfverbande, also known as the Death's Head Formations. They were the only SS corps to continue wearing the all-black uniform of the prior SS-VT (verfugungstruppe - 'general SS') from which the Death's Head units were drawn.

The anecdotal, empirical, photographic, and documentary evidence of the Holocaust having actually happened is so overwhelming that to honestly even make the claim that none of it ever happened, at the absolute best, shows nothing but a blatant disregard and wanton refusal to acknowledge obvious historic fact.

If you need further proof, I would highly recommend reading the thoroughly brilliant 'Order of the Death's Head' - the seminal work on the SS. Detailed therein are countless documents and examples of the Holocaust being a central purpose and objective of the SS, with numerous anecdotes pertaining to almost constant German Army complaints about the behaviour of the SS men and numerous SS officers and adjutants reprimanded for refusing to participate.