Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

Originally posted by SeaWind
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

 

NichirasuKenshin, thank you for your excellent, level-headed post!

I just don't have the time to fight this fight right now -- so many other things going on.

What dropped my jaw to the floor was the sheer number of "Holocaust Deniers" on ATS. So are these people Neo-Nazis, Muslims, Jew-haters or just %*&#?

Amazing.

SeaWind

I think it's the usual immature desire to 'be different' and 'question society' for the hell of it, as anyone with access to a bookstore or library (or christ, even the internet) can tell you, with fairly firm conviction, that saying "I'm a holocaust revisionist" or "I question very seriously the nature of some of the allegations regarding the holocaust" shows that you have basically done no research on the subject (aside from reading incredibly biased websites of tin-pot authors) and choose to willingly make yourself ignorant to what is blatant historical fact.

The number of people is peculiar indeed though.

reply to post by duality90


Duality90, excellent info! Sorry for the double post.

SeaWind

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Yeah I don't really care if it wasn't a scholarly report. I don't care if a 4th grader wrote it. The man was jailed for a thought crime, nothing more. Your defense is "Well, it wasn't a scholarly article, so it's ok to jail a man who has done nothing wrong." You don't see anything inherently wrong with that?

Originally posted by King Loki
The holocaust is BS it always has been anyone with half a rational brain can quickly realise this

There were no more than 4 million Jews living in Nazi-occupied territory. As the Nazi army advanced, the Jews fled rather than be captured. On June 30, 1965, the West German government announced that 3,375,000 Jewish “holocaust survivors” had applied for reparations. Now, if we subtract 3,375,000 from 4,000,000, that leaves 625,000 unaccounted for. If we take 625,000 and add a zero to the figure, we arrive at the fictitious and truly fantastic six million lie.

simple math dictates that it is bull# and or a fantastical exaggeration of what actually occurred

want some more maths ... since the "mass graves" theory has been completely debunked by multiple tests with ground penetrating radar, cremating 6,000,000 bodies in order to dispose of the evidence would have left 15,000 tons of ashes. No such volume of ashes was ever found, and no air reconnaissance ever revealed enormous clouds of smoke, and certainly there was never any such total of bodies found. mathematically speaking, Auschwitz, one of the largest concentration camps, had only about twenty ovens in its crematory. The crematoria at the various concentration camps were very crude and required lots of fuel and many hours to consume one body (3-4 hours minimum). One researcher has calculated that, given the exact number of ovens available and hours per body, the ovens would have to be going day and night from the War’s beginning until 1975 before that many bodies could be cremated, its simple maths, not to mention all the wood ash and teeth that would of have to have been disposed of .... Also why when Winston Churchill wrote his book about the war .. did he not mention at all the mass killing of the Jews ... his mother was Jewish so id assume he would have at least mentioned it but he didn't ... not a word ... seems like an odd thing to leave out ??

The so-called Diary of Anne Frank was not written by Anne Frank at all. Photocopies of the supposed manuscript show two distinct styles of handwriting, one which is not handwriting at all but printing, and the other a very smooth handwriting angled at two o’clock. At least half of the manuscript was handwritten in ballpoint pen. The ballpoint pen, invented during WWII, was not commercially available until after the war. In addition, the American Jewish writer, Meyer Levin, sued Anne Frank’s father and won an award of $50,000 for his participation in the writing of “Anne Frank’s” supposed diary. This fact was only brought to light because one Jew tried to cheat another.


World Almanac, 1940, pg. 129: World Jewish Population- 15,319,359
World Almanac, 1949, pg. 289: World Jewish Population- 15,713,638
World Almanac, 1996, pg. 646: World Jewish Population- 14,117,000


Its just a big lie simple as that ?



[edit on 7/8/10 by King Loki]

[edit on 7/8/10 by King Loki]

A rational brain could process the information and come to your conclusion if your information was correct, which it isn't. 7 million jews lived in nazi occupied eastern and central europe. THere were just over 3 million who lived in Poland. With maybe a million other jews scattered throughout the rest of Europe. THere were about 3 million in the eastern soviet union.

We had a couple who were good friends of my grandparents and they were jews who suffered in Aushwitz. When I was about 9 years old I asked what the tatoos were. And for the next several years they told me all about their time during the Nazi Occupation. They met my grandfather while he was a seargant in WW2. It's a long story and I won't go through all of it. But I will tell you a few things.

They would round up prisoners and tell them to strip as they were going to have a shower. It wasn't a shower, it was the gas chamber. THere were many. They kept a separate group of Jews that loaded the ovens to cremate the bodies. They were not kept with the rest of the prisoners as to avoid letting the knowledge of what was happening slip out. When they asked about the ash falling from the sky covering everything they were told that it was snow mixing with smoke in the air creating a dirty snow. But they knew better. They were kept on a starvation diet so as to avoid resistance. Some were taken for medical experience, some were worked to death, some were just arbitrarily shot. THose who didn't die in the gas shamber were tossed directly into the oven. There were other strocities committed which don't need to be discussed in this thread.

As far as mass graves go there are many verified mass graves. Look up Smoliarka. Nazis did a Sherman's March through there. 1500 people murdered and buried in mass graves. The survivors documented the happenings in the town history.

You remark on there not being significant amounts of ash. The ash was partially spread in the pits and trenches. Nobody knows how much was scattered over the forests. And much of the ash was sent as fertilizer to german settlers. THere were also significant amounts of ash pushed into rivers. At many "death camps" they ran out of space to bury corpses, so many were exumed and burned to create more space. The ash layers in the soil can give you an idea of how many people's ashen remains could fit in the pits.

I detest debate about the holocaust. Why? There is an abundance of proof. 4th rate holocaust revisionists don't adhere to proper treatment of evidence protocols...

The Nazi Government documented the events of the holocaust. The death camps. As well as their policy on jews. If a jew had 3 jewish grandparents they were exterminated. If they had less they were given the opportunity to convert to another religon.

There are hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.

There are official nazi government photos. Photos from the allies, press, etc...

THere was a plethora of eyewitness tesimony ranging from Nazi officials, camp survivors, the SS, allied troops and spies and secret photos taken by camp survivors.

THe camps still exist and their purpose is obvious.

Post WW2 population surveys indicate there were about 6 million jews in nazi occupied europe that were missing. Where did they go if they weren't murdered?

If you look at the Nizkor project and David Irving's case, they were proven hoaxers and their evidence fabricated. Many of the Holocaust revisionists still use evidence from those sources.

When it became obvious they were going to lose the war the Nazis were ordered to destroy all evidence of the holocaust, everything from papers to people.

I loke Noam Chomsky's quote on holocaust revisionists.


"I see no antisemitic implications in denial of the existence of gas chambers, or even denial of the holocaust" I was asked whether the fact that a person denies the existence of gas chambers does not prove that he is an anti-Semite. I wrote back what every sane person knows: no, of course it does not. A person might believe that Hitler exterminated 6 million Jews in some other way without being an anti-Semite. Since the point is trivial and disputed by no one, I do not know why we are discussing it. In that context, I made a further point: even denial of the Holocaust would not prove that a person is an anti-Semite. I presume that that point too is not subject to contention. Thus if a person ignorant of modern history were told of the Holocaust and refused to believe that humans are capable of such monstrous acts, we would not conclude that he is an anti-Semite.

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


How can it be made illegal to state that something didn't happen? Whether it did or not. I realise that these laws were created to protect against extremist anti-semetical views and hate-filled Neo-Nazis, but there are current laws already to protect against hate crimes, slander, racism etc. I'm not a lawyer, but i can't see how current laws would not already cover everything and protect poeple against persecution and hate crimes.

I just find it highly unusual that saying 'that didn't happen' to anything at all can land you in jail, regardless of how wrong you are. And in some countries even questioning anything about it, as many people have done on this thread, can technically be perceived to be denial and held acountable under the same laws. Some countries also include the term 'revisionism' in the law, which would mean to me simply trying to change or question the official version.

I'm a conspiracist so as soon as someone says it is illegal to question the official story i jump to conclusions as to why.

reply to post by DrJay1975


7 million Jewish lived in Europe.

3.4 million Jews from Europe in the mid 60's applied for reparations for the Holocaust and other war crimes.

6 million were killed according to the official story.

There is a number discrepancy there.


[edit on 8-9-2010 by WolfofWar]

reply to post by DrJay1975


Good job, I'm glad you were able to respond to that prior poster who, frankly, blatantly just wrote a great deal of information which is obviously false, and wrong.

I can't recall at which camp it was, but did a team of researchers not recently excavate the ground beneath Treblinka (or perhaps one of the other camps?) and find human ash to a depth of at least 20 feet in the ground?

As for the prior posters claims that the crematoria were inefficient at Auschwitz: I don't know where he got that information from, but that is plainly not true. There were 46 industrial ovens in the Birkenau section of the camp, fueled by coke; they were on the cutting edge of what was possible with the available technology at the time and in no way were they inefficient or useless at their prescribed task.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

 

Yeah I don't really care if it wasn't a scholarly report. I don't care if a 4th grader wrote it. The man was jailed for a thought crime, nothing more. Your defense is "Well, it wasn't a scholarly article, so it's ok to jail a man who has done nothing wrong." You don't see anything inherently wrong with that?

You're completely misrepresenting what I wrote. Another poster asked me if Germar Rudolf was indicted for writing a dissertation. I explained that he wasn't and provided some background info.

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin

Originally posted by WolfofWar
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

 

Yeah I don't really care if it wasn't a scholarly report. I don't care if a 4th grader wrote it. The man was jailed for a thought crime, nothing more. Your defense is "Well, it wasn't a scholarly article, so it's ok to jail a man who has done nothing wrong." You don't see anything inherently wrong with that?

You're completely misrepresenting what I wrote. Another poster asked me if Germar Rudolf was indicted for writing a dissertation. I explained that he wasn't and provided some background info.

Except that he was, in fact, prosecuted and charged for writing the dissertation. he was criminally charged with holocaust denial. Not forgery, not slander or libel, nothing other than denying the holocaust by writing the dissertation.

Originally posted by explosivo
*sigh*, so many misguided souls in here trying to set facts where in reality these facts are nothing more than mere speculations, and that's being generous.

This thread could've ended long ago.

You say the holocaust never happened? That's strange, because Adolf Eichmann (...for those of you that don't know - Eichmann was a high-ranked officer in charge of many issues regarding the camps, that was caught and kidnapped by the Israeli Mossad in 1960 and was brought to Israel for a trial...) admitted to all sorts of accusations in his trial while his defense was that he only recieved orders.

Why would Eichmann say such a thing if the holocaust never happened? Must be a Zionist conspiracy! ...
[edit on 9-8-2010 by explosivo]

Sigh, I think your "facts" are misguided and I'm surprised nobody has pointed this out yet.
Eichmann is a perfect example of why you can't use torture to extract confessions. Eichmann signed a confession to killing some 5 million. This Auschwitz, and I already posted a court ruling establishing 300,000 died at is obviously a complete lie, there were nowhere near 5 million killed at Auschwitz.

In spite of all the international commotion and the vast barrage of irresponsible print which has flooded the world on Eichmann since May, 1960, there is not the slightest substantial evidence that Eichmann ever deliberately ordered even one Jew gassed in a German concentration camp, to say nothing of having ordered and supervised the extermination of six million Jews

link
Before you start busting others' chops about learning the facts, maybe you should learn some real history yourself first.

The Holocaust Denial industry is one of those things that make me feel like I am living in Bizarro world its like up is down and down is up. I have found that Holocaust Deniers fall into to three main catagories.

1. Judeophobes (I dont use the term anti Semite as there folks other than Jewish that are Semites)(KKK and certain so called christians)

2. Naziphiles (Who for some reason seem to think the Nazi Third Reich is a good thing and seek to rehabilitate Adolph Hitler and his Ilk in the eyes of the world)(StormFront and various Neo Nazi groups)
3. Activist Moslem Leaders (Who use Holocaust denial to rally thier people against Israel.) (Ahmadinejad and the Muslim Brotherhood.)

As someone who has actually walked the grounds at Dachau and seen the ovens,lampshades made of human skin and clothing made of human hair I have to seriously question the sanity of those involved in the denial of this immense human tragedy. While Dachau wasnt a Jewish Death Camp it was the prototype that the Nazi used in constructing other camps, Dachau was a camp that housed resistance fighters , clergy, homosexuals and other enemies of the Reich, While I would never be one to take away from some one the ability to Deny the Holocaust as I am a firm believer in free speech and thought, Truthfully by letting the Denier speak and write thier revised histories they expose themselves for the frauds and haters that they are and it is a good thing that right minded people can see them.

Previously in this thread it has been stated that there were only 6 million Jewish folks in Europe in 1939. This can be proven false by picking up any world almanac of the time period in question. Even the Nazis who were meticulous in thier record keeping put the number at 11 million in Nazi Occupied territory in 1942. You can see this by the minutes of the Wannsee Conference held in 1942. Most sources will place the numbers of the European Jeish population at 9.5-10 million.

The Wannsee Conference

The Holocaust

In 1950 there were approximately 3.5-4 million Jewish folks in remaining in Europe. So where did these Jewish folks go to?. To use Nazi terminolgy they were evacuated , used as slave labor , gassed , shot and buried in mass graves or burned in crematoria. Read your history speak to survivors and to the soldiers that liberated these camps. Also now you can look through 50 million pages of Nazi documents that were opened to the public in 2006.

Revisiting The Horrors Of The Holocaust

Germany Agrees to Open Holocaust Archive

One of the tactics used by the Holocaust Denier is the fact that more folks of other groups were killed by the Nazis, they will freely admit that the Nazis killed over 11 million Slavics, Gypsies, Communists, Witches , Mason, Astrologers, Homosexuals , Clergy and many others. The only number they will ever call into questions is the figure of 6 million Jewish folks. To deny an anti Jewish agenda on the part of the Holocaust denier is to be part of the insanty ourselves.


If someone denied that African Americans were slaves in the United States would we take this person seriously?

If someone denied the Bataan Death March took place or the Rape of Nanking took place would we take them seriously.

Would we deny that European colonialism in the New World resulted in the Death of between 10 million and 20 million Native Americans on 2 continents?


If you want to oppose the policies of the Israeli Government then oppose them based on the merits, do not bring the Holocaust into it, you have lost the arguement against the Israeli government as soon as a denial of the Holocaust comes into play.

Originally posted by Nammu

I realise that these laws were created to protect against extremist anti-semetical views and hate-filled Neo-Nazis, but there are current laws already to protect against hate crimes, slander, racism etc. I'm not a lawyer, but i can't see how current laws would not already cover everything and protect poeple against persecution and hate crimes.

I know what you mean but that simply wasn't the case. Are we talking about Germany now? I am not familiar with the laws in each and every country.

As for Germany: There is no law against denying the Holocaust per se. Germany has - for obvious historical reasons - incorporated an article in its criminal law code that makes "Volksverhetzung" (incitment of racial hatred) a crime. Before this law there was no basis to stop someone from slandering whole peoples, inciting hate crimes etc. by publishing stuff. It's not as if an existing law had already covered this. Before the law was implemented there had been many unsuccesful attempts to shut down Neo-Nazi publications by going to court. Germans and especially the Bundestag found this situation to be unbearable and therefore created the law.

In addition, there is a specific law that forbids the distribution of symbols of "unconstitutional organizations". Obviously this was made specifically to inhibit trade and profit by Nazi memorablia and especially to prevent a traumautized people to ever be confronted with the dreaded symbols of Nazism. It was in the general interest of the Germany and with their general consent that they made this law - never again should a swastika flag be seen in Germany without reprimandations. This law has also been applied to unconstiutional leftist groups and their symbols, though.

Here is a translation of the law:

en.wikipedia.org...

§ 130 Public Incitement (1985, Revised 1992, 2002, 2005)

(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:

1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,

shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.

(...)

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 6 subsection (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner that assaults the human dignity of the victims by approving of, denying or rendering harmless the violent and arbitrary National Socialist rule shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine. (...)[23]

Subsection 6:

§ 6 Genocide

(1) Whoever with the intent of destroying as such, in whole or in part, a national, racial, religious or ethnic group:

1. kills a member of the group,
2. causes serious bodily or mental harm to a member of the group, especially of the kind referred to in section 226 of the Criminal Code,
3. inflicts on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction in whole or in part,
4. imposes measures intended to prevent births within the group,
5. forcibly transfers a child of the group to another group, shall be punished with imprisonment for life. (...)

I just find it highly unusual that saying 'that didn't happen' to anything at all can land you in jail, regardless of how wrong you are.

Just saying it will not land you in jail. In fact, jail is not necessarily what you get. Many of these cases end with simple fines. As far as I know only repeated offenders have been put to jail so far. Read the law above; there are conditions; "just saying it" will not get you indicted. Screaming it into a microfone in front of a mob may. Or publishing a book that can be demonstrated to contain mainly lies and misrepresentations. As I have repeatedly said; if you publish a book in which you clearly demonstrate that the Holocaust didn't happen and you have the sources to prove it you have nothing to fear. If you look at the individual indictments you can see that in these trials the level of intellectual honesty, source-basedness etc. are always major points for establishing guilt. It is only "Volksverhetzung" that will get you trouble, that means if a court can demonstrate that you lied, misrepresented and generally have contempt for facts.
I can highly recommend reading through the court cases. They are very enlightening and from reading them I see no reason to believe that this law is regularly misused or generally unfair.

And in some countries even questioning anything about it, as many people have done on this thread, can technically be perceived to be denial and held acountable under the same laws. Some countries also include the term 'revisionism' in the law, which would mean to me simply trying to change or question the official version.

You'd have to refer me to individual countries then. I don't know all the laws. But to be honest, I think what you write is not true. I can't think of any country where "simply asking" will get you in trouble - as long as you don't mean "just asking questions in the Glenn Beck/Eric Cartmann way.

As an anecdote I know of a rabid Holocaust-Denier from my town who is a Jew. He's mentally ill and it's almost like Tourette but instead of swearing he just demeans the victims of the Holocaust. I know that this guy went to Israel several times in his life. He never got jailed. My guess is that perhaps Israel would have the most stringent of these laws.

Feel free to look through the Wiki I linked and search for the strictest law and post it. If things would indeed be like you write then I would be appaled - that indeed would be persecution for "thought crimes".

I'm a conspiracist so as soon as someone says it is illegal to question the official story i jump to conclusions as to why.

Obviously I am a conspiracist too, right? LOL.
It's just that there isn't really an "official" story when it comes tto the Holocaust. It's not as if some cabal of Zionists wrote the history of the second world war and then somehow enforces everyone to say the same thing. That's extreme but you know what I mean.

The "official" story is an amalgamation of literally thousand of people who all have varying views on the details and the interpretation of the Holocaust. Of course there are certain standard works; but the became standards because they were of a high quality. No single group or state has the ability to control the academic debatte... And surely not to supress it totally.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Originally posted by duality90
I'm amazed this has stirred up so many replies.

I ask: why is it so irrefutably difficult to believe the testimony not only of numerous recorded former upper-echelon SS men, but also the hundreds and thousands of individuals actually directly involved with the Death Camps? I find it peculiar that we choose not believe the eyewitnesses who were actually at these places.

Duality90, they do NOT want to believe the Holocaust happened, and I'm sure there are a variety of reasons to stay in denial.

Here's one case I know personally: A young German medical doctor told me of visiting Israel when he was a young student. He went thru a large Holocaust museum there (Tel Aviv?). He told me that when he came out he was in shock, shaken to the core. He said, "I was ashamed of being German."

When he got back to Germany and related his experience to other Germans, he was "corrected" of "all these Zionist lies."

This young doctor showed me books (printed in Argentina) that refuted all these horrible "Zionist lies." He was very anxious that I believe him, that I believe that Germans were incapable of such atrocities.

His "evidence" was very pathetic, but I felt sorry for him. Here was a fine, intelligent, sensitive man who could not face the history of his country squarely.

What he failed to grasp was this Holocaust was NOT about Germany or being German. The Holocaust is about HUMAN EVIL. Not the usual war atrocities (of which there are endless examples from all over the world), but a brand new, "Brave New World" type of EVIL.

Here was a modern European country that gave the world Beethoven, Goethe, and more brilliant thinkers & artists than I can name now, that had created modern state-funded, endorsed killing factories. The German talents for organization & efficiency perverted to serve EVIL.

It was breath-taking and so dangerous that we (as a species) cannot afford to ever forget what happened in Germany. Because it can happen anywhere given the right circumstances.

SeaWind

So,the debunking of the holocaust is in full swing.
This thread has made me sick to my stomach.I am
appalled at the fact that so many want to believe
that it didn't occur,or not as history records it.

If you don't learn from your past mistakes,you're
doomed to repeat them,over and over again!I
wonder who will be the next victims of a holocaust?
My money is on the christians!

Originally posted by WolfofWar


Except that he was, in fact, prosecuted and charged for writing the dissertation.

Your use of the words "in fact" in the above sentence is mind-boggling.

Are you being dense? Disingenious? Are you really claiming that the Rudolf report is a dissertation? What University was it written at/for? Under whose tutelage? When was it delivered? What was the conclusion of the examining comission?

Honestly.... Are you not reading at all or are you trying to make me ignore you?

he was criminally charged with holocaust denial.

Obviously you're not familiar with the trial. He was indicted for distributing National Socialist Propaganda.

Not forgery, not slander or libel, nothing other than denying the holocaust by writing the dissertation.

FOrgery, slander and label, as I have explained above, are essential in establishing if someone is guilty of "Volksverhetzung". Only by using one or more of these will you get indicted.
If you got the sources to prove what you're saying, then they can't get you. The court must be convinced that such tactics (and others) were used while composing.

I'm wondering if you're not really reading my replies or if you're being intentionally dense. Why would you call it a "dissertation" when it isn't?
Why do you say he was indicted for Holocaust denial when he demonstrably wasn't. There isn't even a law against Denying the Holocaust in Germany, as you could have learned by the previous posts.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Except that he didn't distribute National-Socialist Propaganda. It's a work around to prosecute for holocaust denial. Paint it any way, but it's what occurred.

Oh and ignore me if you like, the ignore button is just the equalizer for those of weaker intellect.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

 

Except that he didn't distribute National-Socialist Propaganda. It's a work around to prosecute for holocaust denial. Paint it any way, but it's what occurred.

Oh and ignore me if you like, the ignore button is just the equalizer for those of weaker intellect.

So you do recognize that it wasn't a disseration? At least something.

It was a private paper. It was examined by a court and found to be dishonest and misleading and therefore it qualified as National Socialist Propaganda.

Have you read the report?

Originally posted by duality90

Originally posted by ken10
reply to post by duality90

 

This is from your link (first sentence)....

Perhaps no aspect of Holocaust denial is more widely disputed than the issue of body disposal at Auschwitz. Holocaust deniers argue that it was not possible to dispose of the 1.1 million killed at the camp. [

Do you notice that !!!

Not the 4 million deaths, but only 1.1 million ??????

What do you say to that ?

Who ever said that 4 million people died at Auschwitz? I'd say that describing the death toll as 1.1 million is actually very historically accurate, if admittedly a mildly conservative estimate (the maximum is usually thought to be 1.6 million).

You are of course aware that Auschwitz, efficient in killing though it was, was only one cog in a very large machine, right?

EDIT: having done a bit more reading and investigation, it does appear that over the years the estimate has decreased. I can't say that that is particularly surprising though, and it makes Auschwitz only very marginally less shocking than if 4 million people had died there (which I guess was some wild estimate they used to give?). Rather makes sense, when you consider the deaths from the Einsatzgruppen in the East and the death rates at the other death camps in Poland.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by duality90]

2nd EDIT: Also, I don't think the idea that there were ever merely several hundred thousand people killed at Auschwitz was or could ever be seriously entertained could it? Hoess and Eichmann were proud within SS circles that Auschwitz killing capacity was in the millions, outclassing its closest competitor by at least half a million people annually.

If I'm not mistaken, the most conservative estimates, based on documentation and physical evidence within the camps, provide for something like 3 million concentration camp deaths? Which, when you factor in the at least another 1.5 million dead through Einsatzgruppen operations and the estimated 2 million dead soviet POW's through execution or hard labor, you end up with a figure that roughly at the 6 million mark for jews, minorities, and slavs. And again, I expect that is probably a conservative estimate, as I have been led to believe that the general reduction in European jewish population by 1945 was somewhere in the region of 6 million people alone.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by duality90]

Duality90, I am familiar with the initial Soviet (they liberated Auschwitz)estimates of just over 3 million killed there. So this figure seems to have revised down to half that. But I have no doubts that the Jewish death toll is in the multi-millions. Auschwitz was just one camp.

I remember reading in Anatoly Kuznetsov (sp?) remembrances of the massacre outside Kiev (then Soviet Union) where the entire Jewish ghetto of about 125,000 people were killed. They were machine-gunned down and allowed to fall into a pit -- some buried alive. This was the Jewish death toll in just one city. How many cities were there where this was repeated?

I remember visiting Trier (Germany) where the guide took us to what used to be the Jewish ghetto. It held about 900 people before the Holocaust. At the end of WWII, there were only 17 KNOWN survivors of the Trier ghetto. How many Jewish ghettos were there in Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Russia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Greece, Italy, ad nauseum.

It's figures like these that the estimates (of Jewish death) are based on.

SeaWind

So

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow


As someone who has actually walked the grounds at Dachau and seen the ovens,lampshades made of human skin and clothing made of human hair I have to seriously question the sanity of those involved in the denial of this immense human tragedy.

Hey Darkstorm thanks for your informative post.

I'd have one objection though; and this is important because people who don't believe the Holocaust happened will jump on this one.

The Lamp-shade is a myth and has been debunked. It's similiar to the "soap myth".

The best source and the most extensive research on the lampshade question is a French guy called Ken Kipperman. He made a fantastic and very interesting documentary about his quest.

www.imdb.com...

reply to post by SeaWind


Seawind; the confusion about the 4 million and the 1 million stems from the Auschwitz plaque and is a favorite of revisionists.

The old plaque (pre early 90s) mentioned 4 million victims. (Not Jews, no qualification).

The new plaque (post 90s) mentions 1 (? correct me, don't remember) million JEWISH victims. (for Auschwitz).

Only after the archives of the Soviet Bloc were opened did it become clear that the Soviets systematically misrepresented the numbers (they started with 8 million)....