Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

Link to testimonies of SS perpetrators in the camps (with sources)

www.shamash.org...

"Now, out of the General Government (part of occupied Poland - Nichirasu), starting with Lublin - the Jews are being deportet east. Here a rather barbaric method is used, and not much will remain of the Jews. All in all one can note that about 60 percent of them must be liquidated."

Joseph Goebbels, Diaries, 3/27/1942

The question came to us: What about women and children? I have decided to seek a very clear solution here. I did not see myself as authorized to exterminate the men - to kill them, or have them killed and have their deaths revenged by their kids and grandkids. The hard choice had to be made to let this populace disappear from the earth (...)


Heinrich Himmler,10/06/1943 to Reichs-and Gauleiters in Posen

cited in H. Graml, Reichskristallnacht(...)

Für die Niederlegung des Ghettos ist mir ein Gesamtplan vorzulegen. Auf jeden Fall muß erreicht werden, daß der für 500 000 Untermenschen bisher vorhandene Wohnraum, der für Deutsche niemals geeignet ist, von der Bildfläche verschwindet und die Millionenstadt Warschau, die immer ein Herd der Zersetzung und des Aufstandes ist, verkleinert wird.
Heinrich Himmler, 16. Februar 1943
zit. n. L. Poliakov
Das Dritte Reich und die Juden

For the putting down of the Ghetto a general plan shall be submitted to me. In any case we have to achieve that the living space of the 500.000 subhumans that currently reside there and is not fit for germans will disappear from the screen and that the million-people city of Warschau - that was always a hotbed of "zersetzung" (dissolution) and of revolt - shall become smaller.

Heinrich Himmler, 03/16/1943
cited after L. Poliakov, the third Reich and(...)

There's tons of these snippets. I'm out for today.

... I firmly believe that there is a purpose behind the lies projected from the things that happened during WW2, there was a reason for making the world hate the Nazi's and the creation of Israel, thats where we need to concentrate our thinking towards what was the real agenda behind all this not to bicker about the amount of people killed or the means by which they met their makers.

The casualty of all wars is innocence. All politicians lead their most vigorous young men into calculated conflicts in the name of their ego power trips, supported by economic vested interests.

The real issue here as it appears to me is why one group of people who strongly identify themselves as a group (if not racially then as a religion, if not as a religion, then as a cultural identity - case in point "the bacon-eating atheist Jew" who has his own blog-spot) have invested so much effort into maintaining the image of the eternal (and envied for their intelligence and talent) victim.

which other identifiable group in all the history of all the horrors of conflict in the history of earthly civilization has done this?

Revisionism of this subject has occurred due to the perceived inequality of importance of the group who define themselves as Jews. But Jews are often great arguers and will argue any adversary under the table, as they have earned their stripes in this skill as a matter of course. For example they will say: "WE don't define ourselves as Jews, it is our detractors who do - the Nazis began an inquiry into who was a Jew and who was not and forced US to wear a star of recognition." (and this person who is saying "WE" and "US" is in his early 20s and has experienced a life of comparative wealth) Who else can say "WE" in this way? Who else can say it is anti-Semitic to state that Jewish interests have monopolized and control the media, and then, on the next hand use all the power of the media and position and authority to destroy the careers and reputations of the people who would declare it? (Such as Oliver Stone and others)

Revisionism occurs not because people are Jew-haters, but because the holocaust is used to define a state of inequality for people who can identify themselves as Jews and within that defined protected group, cultivate a privilege non-Jews are not privy to.

I viewed one of the David Irvine vids previously posted in this thread and he used the word "innocenticide" in a particular context and I cannot agree with that more. That is what we should be concerned about - the innocent men, women and children who are the unrecognized victims of all wars - the victims of the fire-bombing of Dresden and the innocents who perished in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

All who use politics and economics as a way to seek power and self aggrandizement contribute to the next great war which is always more horrifying than the last. And Jewish interests today certainly are not innocent of using power and economics to aggrandize their own interests.





[edit on 8-8-2010 by Golden Rule]

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Golden Rule]

Originally posted by HomerinNC
So I guess the elderly jewish people I took care of in the late 1990s as a paramedic in florida had numbers tattooed to their inner arms was just bogus and the stories my grandfather told me of helping liberate a concentration camp (dont remember which one) where ther dead were still mixed in with the barely living and those films of bodies, DOZENS if not HUNDREDS of them stacked like cordwood were all fake too. None of it happened, right?

1. no one denies prison camps
2. no one denies tattoos
3. those elderly jewish people survived, meaning it wasn't much of an efficient death camp
4. people only deny gas chambers were used
5. since you mentioned the pictures, did you notice how they are all emaciated, how could that be if they were executed right away? The answer is, they were starved through sickness, not gassed

try and stick to what is being denied and what isn't, otherwise you belittle the serious investigations into the holocaust by claiming that people deny 100 percent of the holocaust.

the zionist and nazi collaboration was started 6 month after hitler was put into power by some bankers.

www.scribd.com...

this "51 Documents : Zionist collaboration with the Nazis " by lenni Brenner -a Jewish historian- is a good starting point to revise history of holocaust especially considering the role of zionism in it.

As a matter of fact the majority of german jews were feeling german before all and had no intention, nor will whatsoever to go to settle in Palestine; they were indeed a huge obstacle to Zionist agenda.

I'm sorry for those who think with their emotions and that are going to be mad at reading this but it is very factual : it was in the interest of zionism to get rid of those Jews...

There have been some kind of holocaust, and it was made possible by zionists to serve their agenda

since after ww2 it is being used as a propaganda tool to serve... yes indeed, zionist agenda

if one state can be judged by its laws and acts then israel is a nazi state anyway.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by ::.mika.::]

Originally posted by Ningishzida
reply to post by duality90

 

"Does it not occur to you that ALL OF THEM may have been lying?
and if not outright lying then stretching the truth to gain more support for their agenda?

All too easy in my mind, doesnt have to be the case yet some seem unable to even begin to consider it.

What if people wanted more proof for the earth being round or that the earth rotates around the sun? Would you suggest that it has already been done?

Sorry OP.
I am not offended by this post, I do not wish to DEBUNK THIS, was not trying to hijack it just saw a entry for some points I hoped to discuss yet found little or no takers.

Please forgive me.

If I'm being entirely honest, I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying to me. I support historical and factual inquiry, and agree that the Holocaust as an event should be thoroughly investigated to ensure that all allegations set forth about its perpetrators are true.

However, this has already been done in great detail since 1945. I'm not saying you don't have the right to say "well, but perhaps it happened like this?", and if you can back such theorems up with hard evidence which refutes any prior claim, I would applaud you for unearthing the truth.

The problem is is that the vast majority (if not all) of the revisionist claims simply cannot be backed up with evidence, or are refuted and disproved by the available evidence. Regardless of what your political or ideological beliefs are, there will always be the irrefutable and inevitable objective truth; you can make any number of claims you want, but at the end of the day there will always be the incontrovertible truth - as sure as the earth is round and as sure as it orbits the sun.

And if you don't mind me expanding on those two examples you described - are you suggesting that simply because it hasn't been proven to you personally in the past hour or so that the earth is round or that the earth orbits the sun, you should immediately say "well, there is in fact a strong possibility that none of that is true because I have not personally had it proven to be my Aristotle or Galileo et c"; how you can even think such logic is reasonable is entirely beyond me. There is a wealth of documented scientific evidence supporting both of those claims going back several hundred years. You can say "well, I haven't seen the earth from space, so I don't believe it" but that doesn't change the fact that the earth is round and that the fact that the earth is round a simple, hard, objective fact which can never be changed.

And tempting though it is to say "I won't even bother commenting" on your suggestion that every single person involved directly or indirectly with the holocaust was lying, I am going to comment on it, because if you believe that is even remotely possible, you are actually an idiot. I don't mean you're a silly person who makes bold, provocative statements to annoy others; I mean that there must honestly be a severe defect of logic and intelligence in your brain to believe that, despite the wealth of first-hand testimony, photographic, empirical, and anecdotal evidence, every single person that has ever discussed the holocaust was propagating a massive lie. I refuse to believe that someone who is not actually legally mentally retarded and a ward of the state could really be so extremely lacking in basic intelligence to believe that that could actually be a realistic possibility. I admit, it is possible, just as it is 'possible' (in the strictest definition of the word) that World War 2 never happened, nor did World War 1 and that all people who talk about it have just been fed a great lie.

But common sense and logic would hopefully inform our decision to believe the most rational and reasonable possibility which is backed up with actual evidence, rather than mere conjecture.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by HomerinNC
So I guess the elderly jewish people I took care of in the late 1990s as a paramedic in florida had numbers tattooed to their inner arms was just bogus and the stories my grandfather told me of helping liberate a concentration camp (dont remember which one) where ther dead were still mixed in with the barely living and those films of bodies, DOZENS if not HUNDREDS of them stacked like cordwood were all fake too. None of it happened, right?

1. no one denies prison camps
2. no one denies tattoos
3. those elderly jewish people survived, meaning it wasn't much of an efficient death camp
4. people only deny gas chambers were used
5. since you mentioned the pictures, did you notice how they are all emaciated, how could that be if they were executed right away? The answer is, they were starved through sickness, not gassed

try and stick to what is being denied and what isn't, otherwise you belittle the serious investigations into the holocaust by claiming that people deny 100 percent of the holocaust.

Presumably the 'pictures' in question are of those prisoners who avoided immediate death in the gas chambers? Those selected for immediate liquidation were either buried in open pits or, as was more often the case, particularly as the process became more efficient, were immediately cremated. If I'm not mistaken, the 'pictures' of emaciated corpses were those of prisoners who had been enslaved and who were starved through being drastically underfed and overworked.

As to your claims of bodies being emaciated after dying of starvation through sickness (does such a thing happen?), to the best of my amateur medical knowledge, people who die of typhus (presumably the disease you are talking about) do not live long enough whilst in the throes of typhus for their bodies to use up all of their fat stores and thus give them an emaciated appearance.

Originally posted by ::.mika.::
the zionist and nazi collaboration was started 6 month after hitler was put into power by some bankers.

www.scribd.com...

this "51 Documents : Zionist collaboration with the Nazis " by lenni Brenner -a Jewish historian- is a good starting point to revise history of holocaust especially considering the role of zionism in it.

As a matter of fact the majority of german jews were feeling german before all and had no intention, nor will whatsoever to go to settle in Palestine; they were indeed a huge obstacle to Zionist agenda.

I'm sorry for those who think with their emotions and that are going to be mad at reading this but it is very factual : it was in the interest of zionism to get rid of those Jews...

There have been some kind of holocaust, and it was made possible by zionists to serve their agenda

since after ww2 it is being used as a propaganda tool to serve... yes indeed, zionist agenda

if one state can be judged by its laws and acts then israel is a nazi state anyway.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by ::.mika.::]

It gets on my nerves when people describe Israel as being a 'Nazi State' or a 'bunch of Nazis'... although I am aware that the term has generally come to be used in the western world to describe any person or regime that is authoritarian and aggressive, using the word when referring to Jews or Israel (obviously, symbolically very jewish) is hugely inappropriate because it frankly just doesn't make sense. Israel's political policies are not in any way along the lines of those championed by the NSDAP; Israel is not 'National-Socialist'; it's society is largely free, and it certainly does not have the authoritarianism that characterised the Nazi regime (it is not a police-state, in other words).

Whilst you can with a good degree of probable honesty describe Israel as being needlessly confrontational with its neighbors and provocative in its international actions, to say the least, I think people are honestly very quick to judge without ever having lived in an Islamic society (which I did for 10 years - if the poster I'm replying to does indeed live, or has ever lived, in an Islamic society, then I apologize for the following statement), you would be well aware of the fervent hatred of Israel and Jews which is ingrained into the national and social conscience of many Islamic countries. Whilst it is obviously not an official policy to acknowledge this, or to support it (although many, if not all, Islamic countries simply refuse to recognise that Israel exists - the area occupied by Israel on their maps is simply a blank spot), Israel and Israelis are vehemently hated by their neighbors, with it not being an uncommon sight to see a plethora of anti-semitic literature quite openly available for sale in most bookstores,with many such titles regularly outselling local authors on regular basis.

Although I feel for the people of palestine who we (the west) very stupidly decided to enrage by creating a Jewish state from their land, people far too seldom begin to even consider what it is like being raised in a society where literally every one of your neighbors bays for your blood. Although most Muslims will not espouse this view publicly, I recall it being generally well known that, when pressed on the issue, many open up and are quite unrepentant about their feelings towards Israel.

People would do well to try and look at both sides of the story a bit more often, rather than just hearing about how Palestine is the victim of a genocide, despite electing as its leaders politicians and militia groups whose policy it is to enrage Israel by engaging in acts of warfare against it. You play with fire, you're gonna get burnt!

Interesting stuff.
I have never attempted to peel the layers of this onion.

reply to post by duality90

very disinformative post;

* u're putting the whole point of my post behind

* u assimilate israel with jews

when the only possible association is with the zionists who themselves were associated with the ss and the nazis from the 1930's to the end of the war.

the distinction is huge

Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”[1]

Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.”[2]
In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.” 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis Zionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo.[3] [4] [5] [6]

Hitler himself personally supported Zionism.[7] [8] During the 1930’s, in cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some 40 camps throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. As late as 1942 Zionists operated at least one of these officially authorized “Kibbutz” training camps[9] over which flew the blue and white banner which would one day be adopted as the national flag of “Israel”.[10]

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...


[edit on 9-8-2010 by ::.mika.::]

reply to post by duality90

Zionists Do Not Represent Jews

...

From ancient times, the relations between the Jewish and Islamic peoples have always been those of peace and brotherhood, and friendship always reigned between them. The proof of this is the fact that for centuries, in all the Arab lands, hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in honor and amidst mutual esteem.

...They[the zionist] have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people. Therefore, their words, declarations and actions are not in any way representative of the Jewish people. This is because the Zionists' seizing of power over the Holy Land is antithetical to Jewish law, and also because the Zionists do not behave like Jews at all rather, they desecrate the sanctity of the land.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...


[edit on 9-8-2010 by ::.mika.::]

Israel's political policies are not in any way along the lines of those championed by the NSDAP; Israel is not 'National-Socialist'; it's society is largely free, and it certainly does not have the authoritarianism that characterised the Nazi regime (it is not a police-state, in other words)

ask palestinian opinion about that... largely free... pfff


[edit on 9-8-2010 by ::.mika.::]

Originally posted by King Loki
there is almost nothing to support the holocaust theory except for people just talking about it ...

That's hilarious. The people talking about it WITNESSED IT. You should go ahead and "debunk" every single incident to occur in the history of mankind since people talk about it.

My grandpa was one of the many troops to go into one of these camps. The war traumatized him and he would not go into graphic detail regarding all his experiences in WWII, but he did say about this issue that if hell truly exists, it existed there and while he wasn't religious, said "the devil was on the loose there".

I'll take his word(and the word of many others who witnessed it) over some person on a conspiracy site who thinks things are false because they're talked about.

As far as the amount killed in WWII, we will NEVER know the true figure. That is the case in all wars, specifically that war. Massacres were occurring on a global scale day after day, month after month, year after year and there's no way an exact tally will be known.

If a time machine is invented in our lifetimes, I hope the first person to be placed in it is you and they send you to Auschwitz in 1943. Then you can report back to us all and tell us how much fun you're having.

reply to post by filosophia


How anyone can deny the holocaust is beyond belief.

Carry on and deny all subsequent holocausts of war.

Do you have any Jewish relatives?

Not only jews.. polish, germans, and hole another bunch of people that needed to Vanish. but the majority was Jews.

I'm only gonna make three points on this subject. But it think they are the three most important ones to consider:

1. Don't confuse questioning the holocaust with 'Holocaust Denial'. Questioning anything is healthy. It is not disrepectful. You have been programmed to believe that questioning this event is bad. Questioning any event can never be deemed bad, regadless of how bad the event itself was. I have yet to see, hear or read any 'Holocaust Deniers' i.e. anyone who thinks the holocaust did not happen. I only see questioning.

2. It is common when questioning the events of the holocaust to be asked by those who label you a 'denier', 'Whether 4 million or 6 million, does it really make a difference?' or something along those lines. Yes, it does make a difference. Lies make a difference and those that died and have family members that died deserve the truth. The German people who still continue to pay for 6 million deaths deserve the truth. The non-Jews who are so much forgotten in this incident deserve the truth. See point one. Questioning is never disrespectful and never wrong.

3. Since 'Holocaust Denial' (read 'questioning') is illegal in a lot of countries, ask yourself why. As soon as even questioning something becomes illegal, it shows that there is more than likely a reason for this and something to hide.

Just my 2p.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by Nammu]

*sigh*, so many misguided souls in here trying to set facts where in reality these facts are nothing more than mere speculations, and that's being generous.

This thread could've ended long ago.

You say the holocaust never happened? That's strange, because Adolf Eichmann (...for those of you that don't know - Eichmann was a high-ranked officer in charge of many issues regarding the camps, that was caught and kidnapped by the Israeli Mossad in 1960 and was brought to Israel for a trial...) admitted to all sorts of accusations in his trial while his defense was that he only recieved orders.

Why would Eichmann say such a thing if the holocaust never happened? Must be a Zionist conspiracy! ...


Some of you really need to start looking for facts and study history before making weird claims.


Oh yeah, and for an attempted accurate list of names of Jewish casualties, all summing down to about 6 million, you could go to Yad Vashem museum to see the names, photos, bio, and plenty of other evidence for yourselves.


Is this a Zionist conspiracy aswell? ...

[edit on 9-8-2010 by explosivo]

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by King Loki

 

It's not like they had windows installed in the gas chambers so everyone could gather round and look through as they were murdered.

They didn't have big signs saying this way to the gas chambers.

Honestly, do you really think they were that open about what they were doing?

Also I'm pretty sure not all camps had gas chambers, so when asking camp inmates did they witness any gassings, which camps exactly were they from?

[edit on 7/8/10 by Kram09]

Kram09, most of the camps did not have gas chambers. Most of the camps were concentration camps in Germany, originally designed to hold political prisoners of all stripes. It wasn't until a "Final Solution" was decided on (circa 1940?) that purpose-built EXTERMINATION camps were built in POLAND. These were expressly designed as death factories or death camps.

SeaWind

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


NichirasuKenshin, thank you for your excellent, level-headed post!

I just don't have the time to fight this fight right now -- so many other things going on.

What dropped my jaw to the floor was the sheer number of "Holocaust Deniers" on ATS. So are these people Neo-Nazis, Muslims, Jew-haters or just %*&#?

Amazing.

SeaWind

reply to post by Studenofhistory


I amost hate to admit it but I have lost some information which I had intented to keep on this subject. As per your "handle", I am wondering if you may have run across it?

Not linog ago I read an article which gave the numbers of those survivors of the holocaust after WW2 and those who had filed claims for reporations over the past several years. The oddest thing thing of jumped out at me. It is that the numbers of those filing as survivors had gone up each time the census was taken.

If you have access to these numbers, I think it would be helpful in this discussion if others were made aware of them.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by hdutton]

[edit on 9-8-2010 by hdutton]

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin

Originally posted by hinky
I've read the thread, laughed at some of the responses from the Holocaust deniers. You guys really are cheap entertainment.

This was touched on, but I really hoped it was carried further.

Hair, clothing, personal property collected in bulk has been mentioned.

Anyone here have a clue why Swiss coins contain mercury? Yeah, this is a fact, even the Swiss now admit it. Germany doesn't strike me as a huge gold producer. Now, I wonder....

I like your post but as someone currently residing in Switzerland I'd have to strongly disagree with the coin claim. Basically because I'm pretty sure that Switzerland did not produce any Gold Coins ( certainly not between 38 and 47). The physical gold issued by that state, the so called "Vreneli" was high-grade (99.something) and couldn't have mercury in it. The way I remember the Nazis smelted it themselves (part of Bernhard program? not sure anymore...) and then sold it to the Swiss (in order for the Swiss to sell it on the world market)...

The bulk of the assets held in Switzerland in connection with the Holocaust were those of the people who died or couldn't produce documents to reclaim them. I would be highly surprised to find any legitimate source detailing the Swiss smelting concentration camp teeth... But do surprise me if that's the case....

NichirasuKenshin, I've been reading your excellent posts with great interest. I read somewhere that the Nazis had "stretched" their gold with lead. If Nazi gold was used by the Swiss, doubtless they knew this, it would have been purified before being used for Swiss gold francs.

SeaWind

Originally posted by SeaWind
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

 

NichirasuKenshin, thank you for your excellent, level-headed post!

I just don't have the time to fight this fight right now -- so many other things going on.

What dropped my jaw to the floor was the sheer number of "Holocaust Deniers" on ATS. So are these people Neo-Nazis, Muslims, Jew-haters or just %*&#?

Amazing.

SeaWind

Hey Seawind!

I absolutely understand your astonishment - but then again I always knew that it was kind of hip to have no clue about the second world war but still going around declaring that "official history is a lie" (as if there is such a thing as official history).....

I'm glad to see you in this thread but I can totally understand why you would want to keep away from it when you have better things to do... Usually I would have walked away too. But it's good to have at least someone to counter the most appalling lies and stuff. Believe me, I'd love to just walk away. But I'm committed to staying in this thread now. Anyways. Thanks for your thanks and thanks for taking the time to make an informed post! I very much enjoyed it.
Have a nice day!