All of you against drug decriminalization have the blood of 28,000 people on your hands

Originally posted by Blanca Rose
I am not pretending. People will use, no matter what, if they can get it. If it becomes legal, I don't see an increase, as many people use, but don't brag about it.

You are fooling yourself, if you think this will end crime.

People won't like what is legal, and go for what gets them a high, even if it isn't legal.

Taxes will be had over the whole issue, but, people are not going to be satisfied, from what they can get at the local "drug store."

Hi Blanca,

I can understand your point of view.

From my very enjoyable and mis-spent youth I discovered that Recreational Use permeates all levels of society, not just plain old working class folk but also Police, Judges, Lawyers, Doctors, Teachers and government employees. I would estimate the usage rate to be around 30% + of the western population, at least. Almost as many as Alcohol and Prescription users.

Crimes relating to getting money to buy softer recreational drugs will decline. I cannot say the same for heavy drug users unfortunately.

It's been proven in Amsterdam that legal or decriminilized soft drug use does not lead to heavier drug use, hence that belief that it does in most cases is a Fallacy pushed by the supportes of the War.

Some years back I watched a documentary on how things work in Amsterdam in which they showed figures for recorded numbers of heavier drugs users on their Heroin Register, only to find that since the inception of legalisation there the same people are on that record many years later. There are little or no people automatically moving onto being registered for harder drug usage from their recreational use of soft substances.

And so I think that the smallest percentage of people may move onto harder drugs after using soft recreational drugs. And personally I think it is the "illegal factor" that draws some people to them. But these are the minority.

There is a program that has just started on Channel 4, in the UK.
Is a 3 part series that has just started on channel 4 They claim that they cannot even stop 1% of the heroin coming into Scotland. The heroin will always be there.

The Person who was in charge of the drugs council, professor Nut was
Fired because he spoke out of the government’s irresponsibility, about taking scientific advice about the harms of drugs. The fact that cannabis, MDMA (extasy) and even '___' where less harmfull and have killed less people than either alcohol or tabacco.

It also (not obviously) explains to you how the smugglers operate.
In the clip where he is describing an idea for a video game he mentions about finding contacts through the freemasons to people who work in customs specifically the X-Ray camera operators scanning all big rigs coming through customs.
Funny that.

Addiction IS a bad thing, gambling, alcoholic, drug even work, the heads of countries prefer to stick their heads in the sand and act ignorant for lots of reasons.

Anyone can get high from anything even everyday items you find in the supermarket. It’s in our human nature to take drugs, remember as children spinning around just to get dizzy!!

And they end of the day we have tryptamine in the brain which is a powerful hallucinogenic so even if you deny it, it’s in your brain chemistry already.

The government want you to take their drugs.
Leave your drugs at home

Edit: i go so wound up, I needed a drink. you didnt want to know what it has done to my spelling and grammer






[edit on 4-8-2010 by outcrysoundsystem]

Originally posted by Blanca Rose
If the drugs were not available, via a drug lord, or dealer, we wouldn't have an issue.

1. Anything can be abused

- food, alcohol, prescriptions, and tons of other chemicals

2. People can grow or make their own drugs


Drug addiction and drug abuse has nothing to do with the drugs.

Fat people abuse fried chicken.

Do we outlaw fatty foods?

No. We educate people about healthy eating.

This is all about self control.

Prisons and machine guns don't solve the mental issues that cause drug addiction and abuse.

This violence can end when we stop focusing on the substance.

reply to post by Blanca Rose


Blanca : expressing how you feel is not analysis based on facts. The drug quality doesnt suffer dependant on legality in faCT experience shows the opposite. In fact history shows in any number of countries that legalization reduces use, and crime...please for pities sake do a lil research, dont just regurgitate what you heard in church...its patently false. For the love of God its a fact, legal drugs= less use less crime, better healthcare...what part of my redudancy are you missing?

I apologize for getting frustrated, but where do you live?..how old are you? I mean really you sound like a bad recollection of the reefer madness propaganda of the 50s

Your oppinion is of course valid but your facts...well they dont exist...I mean crap ever hear of Iran Contra?...your country was dealin drugs to hold up insurgencies during the 80s then at the same time jailed regular folks for doing the same thing. You have no logic in this debate.

In the one year that I have been reading ATS I always wanted to see an intelligent debate about drugs.

And maybe a conspiracy or two thrown in for good cause!

Come all you organic chemists, ethnobotanists, historians and even anthropologist opens peoples minds a little please

ok Ill throw a Spanner in the works

the one good thing the WHO said about the taliban:- they were eradicating all the poppy fields, before 9/11 something like 60% of the worlds opium was coming from afganistan.

post afghan invasion over 98% of the worlds opium is now produced in afghanistan

reply to post by hotbakedtater


The murder would not have been committed if it weren't for the seller doing what he or she thinks is expedient for getting that drug into the hands of the end user. I refuse to use the term junkie because a lot of buyers are casual recreational users. This is a black market condition we are talking about. Not the stock market, not Dow Chemical. Those comparisons are faulty. In a black market there may be a few middlemen but the primary players are the seller and the end user. The black market can not function, it can not exist at all without buyers.

If people would at least refrain from casual recreational use...which is something entirely within their power of free will to do, then at least their money would not be feeding this beast. For the hardcore addicts, their power of choice needs to be restored to them via caring intervention, but again that is something they ultimately must choose to seek and participate in.

It is possible that decriminalization of the least dangerous substances could make a huge dent in the black market. I don't know. That's not what I'm addressing here. The OP seems to be making the case that the opinions of people make them guilty of the deaths of innocents. One can be in favor of decriminalization or against it but as long as there is no actionable referendum on the matter, opinions of private citizens aren't killing anyone. The dealers are killing people with the money the sellers provide to them. If there were no money in it, the dealers in a black market would not be dealing in that commodity.

Think about the market for child porn. We go after the producers. But we go after the purchasers, too. Why? If you reduce the number of buyers you thin out the number of producers. Now suppose the market for child porn becomes so lucrative producers start becoming violent and armed to promote their distribution channels. Is everyone going to start arguing for the decriminalization of child porn to reduce the collateral damage in that war on that particular crime? God I hope not. I hope we haven't fallen so far into catering to everyone's personal indulgences that we ever see that as a viable option. I know that's not a perfect comparison. I don't equate pot with child porn. I'm saying sometimes we can identify the key players in a black market and sometimes we have to fight them both. Decriminalization isn't an option that is going to resonate with everyone and sometimes for good reason.

All i'm saying is that while drugs are illegal, abstain, lest you buy a product paid for in somebody's blood. We abstain from blood diamonds when we know the source. Why not abstain from drug use until this is all sorted out. Especially if people are going to start pointing fingers at law abiding citizens and screaming they have blood on their hands. Over a matter they don't currently have a direct say in, especially.

Okay I have been nursing a virus all day. I'm going to go read about sasquatches so I don't have to think myself into a migraine.

I will share something to hopefully shed some more light on this subject, and it is indeed a controversial one.

There was a long period of my life, spent as an addict, and not just on "soft drugs", I got hooked. There was almost nothing I hadn't tried, and I spent two years in particular addicted to one of the hardest drugs there is out there. I'm sure you can use your imagination, I don't want to get in trouble with the mods.

Being an addict, almost destroyed my life. Ruined relationship with friends (lots of them were addicts too!), intimate relationships, family, but most of all, it hurt the relationship I had with myself.

I spent years trapped in a cycle, I couldn't see past my addiction, life meant addiction, I had forgotten what it was to live. I always blamed others for hurting me that made me an addict, I always blamed friends for bringing it around me, I blamed life for making me an addict. None of that worked, it got worse.

What it taught me is that all I could blame is myself.. seems simple enough right? But it isn't, it isn't when you are in hell, it isn't when all you know is addiction, it's not easy when you live day to day to get high, there is no contrast to show you anything different. It's INCREDIBLY hard, it is a nightmare. It taught me self control, personal responsibility, personal education. It showed me how to take control of my life, and I don't regret any of it. It was one of the most valuable experiences of my life. You can't blame the people you buy it off of, because you have to physically go to them and pay for it. You can't blame your friends, because you choose to be with them. You can't blame the drugs, because you choose to do them, no matter how hard it is, you make the choice, and only you.

A true addict will do WHATEVER it takes to feed their addiction, legal or not. Accessibility is completely unrelated to the drug/violence/conspiracy/program/war. Crimes are committed as an effect of them being illegal, being criminalized. When people have to struggle to feed their out of control addictions, guess what most of them do.. you don't want to know.

People are sick, they need assistance, they need education, they need compassion, they need love, not jail time. The source of the problem isn't drug lords, it's the war, the war creates drug lords.

Violence creates more violence, war creates more war, ignorance breeds ignorance.

Be In Peace.

Originally posted by Asmus
I will share something to hopefully shed some more light on this subject, and it is indeed a controversial one.

There was a long period of my life, spent as an addict, and not just on "soft drugs", I got hooked. There was almost nothing I hadn't tried, and I spent two years in particular addicted to one of the hardest drugs there is out there. I'm sure you can use your imagination, I don't want to get in trouble with the mods.

Being an addict, almost destroyed my life. Ruined relationship with friends (lots of them were addicts too!), intimate relationships, family, but most of all, it hurt the relationship I had with myself.

I spent years trapped in a cycle, I couldn't see past my addiction, life meant addiction, I had forgotten what it was to live. I always blamed others for hurting me that made me an addict, I always blamed friends for bringing it around me, I blamed life for making me an addict. None of that worked, it got worse.

What it taught me is that all I could blame is myself.. seems simple enough right? But it isn't, it isn't when you are in hell, it isn't when all you know is addiction, it's not easy when you live day to day to get high, there is no contrast to show you anything different. It's INCREDIBLY hard, it is a nightmare. It taught me self control, personal responsibility, personal education. It showed me how to take control of my life, and I don't regret any of it. It was one of the most valuable experiences of my life. You can't blame the people you buy it off of, because you have to physically go to them and pay for it. You can't blame your friends, because you choose to be with them. You can't blame the drugs, because you choose to do them, no matter how hard it is, you make the choice, and only you.

A true addict will do WHATEVER it takes to feed their addiction, legal or not. Accessibility is completely unrelated to the drug/violence/conspiracy/program/war. Crimes are committed as an effect of them being illegal, being criminalized. When people have to struggle to feed their out of control addictions, guess what most of them do.. you don't want to know.

People are sick, they need assistance, they need education, they need compassion, they need love, not jail time. The source of the problem isn't drug lords, it's the war, the war creates drug lords.

Violence creates more violence, war creates more war, ignorance breeds ignorance.

Be In Peace.

Glad that you overcame all of that
You spoke the truth right there and I dont see how people dont see that picture.

Like I have said in other countries there's assistances (drug centers/rehabs), they get education while getting that assistance, they get that compassion, they get the love, and not jail time like you mentioned. They aren't looked down upon as worthless druggies, Like each and everyone of us, we need to do something to keep our minds away from BS and troubles, to cope with things from watching tv,working out,hanging out to the lowest things you can imagine.

I've been around and known true addicts, I also see them out on the streets hustling for the next penny to buy their crack from my local neighbor's every single day, day in and day out, From all hours.

Thanx for sharing, you pretty much went to the point on that one.

[edit on 5-8-2010 by MilzGatez]

Also I would like to add, a year ago or so, I read a report that they wanted to do a Needle-Exchange program here downtown New York where people who uses drugs can go in with no problems with the drugs they got on the streets or from the place itself, Police couldn't do anything, it was like a drug safe-zone with real professional doctors,nurses,counselor, fresh needles and all. They wanted to put that up to reduce drug-related crimes,injustice of police, reduce AIDS and all that bad stuff, among other reductions, they wanted to follow the other countries like Holland for example since its doing so well, but politics messed it all up.

now if someone want me to look it up, tough luck, do your own research, i have taken my time all these months and learned. This is something you cant just put out with 2-3 links, it isnt the same as if someone did a full research on the subject so there's no way me or anyone else can make anyone who is against drugs and it being legalize understand us or the "movement" or the Drug War itself.

[edit on 5-8-2010 by MilzGatez]

Dont know if anyone else seen this

stopthedrugwar.org...

www.cannabisnews.org...

wjz.com...

but Washington D.C. has now passed the medical marijuana reform law making it the 15th State but it will take some time to actually put up "shop" and have it going.

the ONLY thing that criminalization accomplishes is MORE crime

Originally posted by Blanca Rose
Everyone will be suspected of using, if they are legal.

so what?
they'd be legal and so what would it matter?

there would be nothing to suspect!!!

I have seen the whole spectrum of drug use. Me myself and countless friends are recreational users, some are right out junkies. One thing everyone who has been involved with drugs knows (many not involved knows this also, but its next to impossible to stay ignorant if you take part in that forbidden part of society) is that alcohol addiction is about as low as you can get.

Since i am a paramedic i have also seen the official side of things, like rehab, psychiatric care, police work involved with substance abuse and of course first aid. What has become clear is that the fear of punishment is the biggest obstacle in helping people with drug addictions. It is true that soft drugs tend to lead to harder ones, as long as you keep in mind that alcohol is one of the hardest. People do not usually get addicted to substances. People get addicted to getting high.

What i would suggest to control the problems and health risks of substance (ab)use is to legalize all drugs to those who hold a prescription, just like with prescription medicines. The license would be given by your physician for lets say one year. Every time you go and renew your license your doctor could question you about your use, do medical checks to ensure that you have not damaged yourself, and if you have, recommend treatment. What they should not be able to do is to refuse giving you this license. I would include all drugs in this list, from tobacco and alcohol to prescription medications and heroin and '___'. Excluding OTC drugs of course.

This would end the black market, would bring taxes to the state, would ensure clean and cheaper drugs and thus reducing health & social risks. Unpure or wrong substances are the biggest problems one has to face! Exactly like illegal booze during prohibition killed and made people blind due to methanol contamination.

[edit on 8/5/2010 by above]

There is NO crime if there is no VICTIM.

Debate over.

Morals cannot be legislated against.

If you harm another, that is a crime.

If you INFRINGE on another's right to Life, Liberty and Property, THAT is a CRIME.

So, in this instance, infringing on someone's rights are EXACTLY what legislation against a substance is, CRIMINAL.

How bout sticking that in your pipe and smoking it.

Show of hands, do you believe your body is your own? Or is it the government's property? If you believe it is yours, you cannot be for criminalization of a substance. Otherwise you are saying that society or government owns your body.

Again, debate OVER.

[edit on 8/5/2010 by endisnighe]

reply to post by reesie45

...they see life as a game of chess and only the king is what matters, the rest of us are just pawns.

Nah, some of us get to be Bishops, Rooks, and Knights.

reply to post by Tayesin

Explanation: St*r for you!

That post is certainly agreeable to me...well mostly!

Personal Disclosure: TPTB didn't set civilization up for the likes of you and or possibly me together[i.e society]! TPTB are above and beyond society... well mostly! A Bonus for us [re: society] doesn't work for them, or me... it's occured to me recently that I am an ELITE! Clever AND lazy and all that blah blah etc.

Here is why...

TPTB definately want AND DESPERATELY NEED for you and everybody else, except them, ...TO be in Debt! False Fiat currency and all that you know!


Why would the FED want to fight Deflation? (by SWCCFAN) [ATS]

:shk:

Pls Note that I am fully aware that both you and I reside in Australia and our particular SitX is quite a bit markedly different except for the false Fiat currency crud!

So I'd best address the topic then... S&F! @ Vitchilo

Uhm I got your message loud and clear, but I'm quite sure some others won't due to ...

Yes it's in Mexico. But decriminalization of drugs in the US would have crashed the prices for drugs in Mexico and all those deaths wouldn't have happened.

Which, if I am not mistaken, is sorta saying decriminalisation is a bad thing economically for various demographics and or cultures and or geographical locations etc. AND I AGREE!

But, your post, also seems to be saying that decriminalization is a good thing becasuse it is AGAINST the war on drugs campaign...

Shame on anyone supporting this stupid war on drugs.

And again I fully agree with that comment in isolation, but in the context your post appears to portray [betray??] it, it seems that your post see's decriminalization as a part of the war on drugs [and it IS from a certain POV..please don't make me quote Jedi and Sith philosophy at you OK! ] but generally it's the tool used agains't the war... and not as a tool to promote it!

Deaths will always happen by the way! Accidents and all that... so yeah! Fix the false Fiat funny money BS and stop making herbs illegal to grow and personally use etc. and then see whether people still kill people over money to feed their fix/kids/hungers etc. [i.e. not just drugs I note.]

Its a false supply and demand "SitX"... and the proof of that is the highly porous international "border" that doesn't actually exist, as a hard and fast reality i.e impermeable, on the shared lands of these two countries between the sea's and shining sea's!

If we are Perscribing something... oh lets say "law: xy and or z." and it fails to often meet the Described reality that is, then who is being philosophically progressive? and who is being stubborn and willfully obstinate regardless of the facts???

Originally posted by Blanca Rose
reply to post by Vitchilo

 

Legalization might be approved by some people, not by me, and what I have seen and witnessed.

I will never go for the leagalization of any drug, and that includes, pot.

Dont understand me wrong, but that might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on ATS.
First of all, you can't tell other people what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. Nobody can.
As long as other people are not hurting you physically with their choices, you just have to accept them. It's not yours, or anyone else's business what I do with my own body, in my own house on my own private time. I especially hate the people who claim they live in a "land of the free" when they cant even eat a plant without getting in trouble if someone finds out.
WHAT IN THE WORLD? SERIOUSLY? (Sorry for the caps) This system is idiotic, I dont agree with it.
Besides, I find it funny that the US used to be much more..Free, before a certain plant and it's use was "outlawed" in the first place.

Oh well. It's not my right to force anyone to see things my way. All I can say is; Have fun being a sheep that will someday get slaughtered by the very same system they defend.

I think I'll take a time out from ATS.

[edit on 5-8-2010 by Klavier]

Originally posted by Klavier

Originally posted by Blanca Rose
reply to post by Vitchilo

 

Legalization might be approved by some people, not by me, and what I have seen and witnessed.

I will never go for the leagalization of any drug, and that includes, pot.

Dont understand me wrong, but that might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on ATS.

Exactly... I love these people.. So anti every drug, but you bet they have their tobacco and a wine with dinner, or are off to the doctor for opiate based pain killers as soon as they get a twinge in their knee.

We just have to accept it - some people just like to see others suffer for stupid reasons. This is one of them.

The black market and abuse of humanity through murder, prostitution and despair that is prevalent from drugs is occurring due to criminalizing it, and also criminalizing it creates enormous profits, which ultimately go the top of our society for this entire thing stemmed from them. They have their own kin, ie. ex military, wealthy family background, (I call them) black ops, working on a street level, even recruiting youths. I am thinking of someone in specific. My best friend, my sister in heart and spirit, has custody of her grandson, due to one of her daugthers abuse of drugs, and many consequent problems with this. It breaks her heart beyond, and the grandson, is a beautiful intelligent, very moody young man, who the mother constantly calls and upsets, and he has left his grandmother and taken off with her several times to try and save her, help her. Its a terrible burden. This extremely wealthy, masonic, ex military guy is involved with her and he keeps showing up to talk to him. This is the real world. My friend has pretty well told him what she thinks of him and to take. They seem to be recruiting her grandson.

One thing for sure about him, when I was visiting and he showed up, we were united in attitude and there was a strange atmosphere where he knew that we knew, and he looked shaken. He is very busted, and being watched. That black op better not step out of line.

They have their own toadies, running and stirring the pot on this black market scene, that the bloodlines run for profit, but mainly for despair. They run this for despair as they are puppets to SATURN.

This wouldn't be possible if it was decriminalized, it would inexpensive, legally assecessible, and only a few would be equivalent to alchoholics with it.

The actual misery, abuse, deaths (my friends son-in law, killed himself to spare her daughter and grandchildren to gangs), human trafficking, prison sentences, and the incredible burden on the tax payers for the policing, courts, programs and prisons (not to mention that the whole system is corrupt and running it. I have stood up to crooked cops and had them slink away) is all because of the elite making drugs illegal and then running the drug trade.

The horrors that my friend is enduring with her daughter, this was a little angel who used to crawl into bed with her and tell her about her metaphsyics dreams, and the deaths and despair in the family, is because of the cruel exhortion of humanity that is run in this pyramid elite cornering of the market and criminalizing substances.

[edit on 5-8-2010 by Unity_99]

Coming from someone who has been sober for over a year after suffering from Chemical Dependency for a long time, I will say this:

I'm an alcoholic, I checked myself in to rehab FOR alcohol, I should be dead because of alcohol, and the only run-ins with the law I've had are due to alcohol.

That being said, I STILL don't think it should be illegal (although I would question it's toxicity compared to multiple 'illegal' and Rx drugs). People have a right to put what ever they want into their body but there is an exception; some of us just can't handle certain things!

Even more interesting, in my past I've also used almost every chemical that is considered 'illegal' and not once has one become a problem for me; it was just experimentation... but no, no, no, I can't have just one drink. One is too many and one-hundred isn't enough. BUT that's how my brain works.

So here we have a legal chemical (Ethanol) that has basically cost me 5-6 years of my (early) life, plenty of consequences, lost family, and a lost sense of self.

... and then we have things like Cannabis - which helped me through high-school/college/grad for my ADD; opioids - which help with my chronic pain; anxiolytics - which allow me to leave my house due to my social and general AD, PD, and other anxiety related disorders.

Point is: I support decriminalization because I can say on a first hand account (and trust me I've tried my share of HARD drugs) that the only thing I became an addict to was something the government let me buy in a store that THEY claim is safe (by rules now imposed in society); not a hit, not a line, not a pill pop.

So, then I'd guess you're probably thinking; well if all of those other chemicals were as accessible in a store, you'd be an addict to them too! Wrong.

Alcohol was my drug of choice and nothing could come close to it. Some people are different but even if it's illegal and it's their drug of choice, making it legal wont change a thing. People are going to use no matter what drug it is, if they WANT TO (but IF legal it just might be the safer). P.S. not all drug use leads to addiction!

Instead of putting them in prison for using 'illegal' drugs and creating criminal enterprises - allow them safe products, a safe place to use, and if it becomes an addiction, rehabilitate them not punish them.

I'm not really supporting the use of any chemical; I just do not support the current laws. Also, I'm just sharing my story - one that just happens to display the hypocrisy of 'War on Drugs'.

Sorry for such a long post but I hope it at least shed some light on some things.