To all female ATS members, who support the ways of the middle east.

reply to post by Aeons


I agree with both of you Quite frankly if I was brought out of a life of slavery, and shown what was actually available to me, I also would be homicidal. Not just for myself, but my mother, my grandmother, her mother and so on.

Originally posted by LadySkadi
reply to post by sweetliberty

 

Perhaps. Still does not change my stance. This thread is an example of what I am speaking of. When attention is drawn, or the attempt to make aware the situations of women in other parts of the world, and especially if that happens to be a place of political fire, than all information and attention that is directed toward an issue is reduced to "that of propaganda"...

Hello LadySkadi, I think I'm coming from a stance that the situation of women and children in other parts of the world is here already.
That if we question everyone and everything here on ATS that we should also question the people who come here from those cultures.
Some seem to think it is no longer an issue when they talk a pretty talk. For some strange reason, they aren't grilled here on ATS by members who grill EVERYTHING ELSE.

I'm all for freedom of religion, freedom of speech and diversity. I just feel more needs to be questioned.

[edit on 8/1/2010 by ~Lucidity]

reply to post by ~Lucidity


If so, What's with the previous replies on this post?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I am fully aware of this, which is exactly why I clearly stated that it is a human condition.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


You don't think spreading awareness, and trying to get people to speak out is enough? Would you declare war?

[edit on 8/1/2010 by ~Lucidity]

Originally posted by dreamwalker74
reply to post by Aeons

 

I agree with both of you

Quite frankly if I was brought out of a life of slavery, and shown what was actually available to me, I also would be homicidal. Not just for myself, but my mother, my grandmother, her mother and so on.

The psychological damage is extensive.

Why didn't the Irish torch the Churches to the ground? Why didn't the boys of the work houses and the orphanages, the "waifs and orphans" form up into mobs and slaughter the priests and the laymen who did what they did? Why didn't the Natives take their chances early when the first schools children became emancipated?

Your answer - it isn't just in women. In women, the technique is honed by thousands of years of religio-cultural mumbo-jumbo. But the same phenomena can be found in men alive right now.

Ask yourself why any church run waifs house for boys stands today. Why they aren't smoking ruins with the priests who ran them and the ones who turned a blind eye, and their laymen helpers with their heads on stakes in Ireland, Nova Scotia, the Native reserves, etc.

Originally posted by dreamwalker74
reply to post by ~Lucidity

 

You don't think spreading awareness, and trying to get people to speak out is enough? Would you declare war?

It is enough dreamwalker. What is frightening to me is that we aren't questioning enough.
I might understand it elsewhere but here on ATS some go straight into the political correct mode and they don't budge but oh, let anyone else or anything else happen and they will harp on it until it's mutilated, lol.
They pick and choose what to pick apart and question but result to name calling and degrading if anyone questions it and thats not good.

I'm glad to see others going out on a limb



[edit on 1-8-2010 by sweetliberty]

reply to post by sweetliberty


I missed the posts with the name calling and degrading. Maybe you could point them out. They might be the most exciting part of this thread.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

There wasn't any. I removed all my particular posts that were replies to dreamwalker because I hate trying to respond honestly, even those removed posts, and then realize I've fallen for bait and that people then use my honest replies to twist my words into even more bait. This was a pretty much worthless thread.

...dreamwalker - your presentation seems to indicate that you like to boss females around - and - that females need a male to tell them which fight to jump into and all the reasons why...

...in my book, that makes you no different then the males you're havin' a hissy fit about (except they're muslim and, obviously, you're not but thats a little itty bitty teeny tiny difference)...

...so, my advice is - if you wanna boss females around, grow your own - and good luck with that, you're gonna need it...

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I apologize if I misled anyone.
There is a poster on this thread who is currently degrading ANYone who opposes them but it‘s on other threads.
They use words like "backwoods" or they imply a lack of diversity and such. What strikes me funny is their lack of viewing a particular subject from all sides when it doesn't suit them. They seem to have resorted into being politically correct and insulting.
Oh, and they hide behind the "religious" card too even when it wasn't approached religiously.
As I see it, they are highly intelligent but they must be wrestling with something on the inside. Hate maybe? I don’t know. All I know is the wrestle seems to be coming from within, possibly causing them to resort to the name calling and the security blanket of religion.



[edit on 2-8-2010 by sweetliberty]

Islam is a newer religion then Christianity, and like any religion evolves seperately from society. 500 years ago Chrisitainity was in the exact same place, infact even worse off.

Give Islam another 200 years ago and it will be as "kind and equal" as Christainity is today.

You hold any religion to the same light as society and you're gonna see alot of ugly truths. This thread is so pointless, so many countries have horrible womens rights regardless of religion.

As for making that a reason to invade another country by your logic next stop should be Nepal or any african nation. But no that won't happen, because there's no profit there for them.

reply to post by dreamwalker74


I'm a guy ...

If it's OK with you, I'll continue living in America. If all of us did what you encouraged us to do, they would be flooded with immigrants.

But as an American, I do not want us to try to change the world. That is their place, this is our place. You see plenty of women from there saying they don't want their world changed. We do NOT have the support of most of the women there, nor of course of most of the men, from what I've been able to glean.

And even if most of the women did want us to save them, I'm not in favor of such an aggressive foreign policy. We destroy these countries "to save them." I don't think that as an American I signed up to go around the world trying to change all the societies that are different from mine.

How about the mirror image of your request. If you don't like it (and obviously you don't,) just don't move there. Since you say you would not be allowed to post if you lived there, I conclude you don't live there. Don't move there.

reply to post by hadriana


OK that's a reasonable point of view. But it's not the only reasonable point of view.

Men are visually oriented. If we see a woman in a bikini, it distracts us. We cannot ignore it. We aren't wired that way.

Sitting in the lotus position isn't too bad. You had a reason for it. You're complaining about another woman staring at you. The woman's boundaries and what affects her are not the same as what affects a man. But there are women here who dress like whores, then scream "sexual harrassment" when someone stares at them -- we'd be better off if they had to wear a burka.

As for what women do to each other here in pushing for social conformity -- would it be too rude to say that we all have to learn not to care too much what women (and men) think?

These extremes, both in our culture and in the middle east, are because some people are immature or nasty and just don't behave well. Here women can underdress, there they must overdress. It doesn't work very well here, doesn't work very well there, and I'm not sure one is worse than the other.

What I do know is that in this culture, the women tend to get the benefit of the doubt. There, the men do. It's just a question of whose ox gets gored.

I spent one day in Dubai and found it to be a pleasant place, except for the weather which was incredibly hot. Some women wore burkas but not all. I've heard that Saudi is more conservative than UAE.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

This was a pretty much worthless thread.

Exactly.

Dreamwalker, are you actually doing anything to help those poor, poor women, or do you just keep b****ing about it?

reply to post by jeh2324

hey....I got an idea, how about we give you a sex change operation, send you over to iran, and you can report back to us....maybe....than again maybe not.....


I don't expect there will be too many people taking up your offer, but who knows......we do seem to be getting crazier by the day....

no thanks, I won't be caught dead in an Islamic country, mainly because I think I would be dead soon after going to one... I am just too nonconformist.

reply to post by oniongrass


I get a lot of what you're saying. There's a lot of ethnocentrism on this forum. I've been in the Middle East and have friends and family who've grown up there or lived there for a few years. The culture is obviously different from ours. There are some oppressive aspects, but they say the same about our society. For the most part though, their entire perspective is different from people here.

A lot of women there find it oppressive that Western women have to go out and work. They prefer being at home with family, while it's the husband's responsibility to earn for the family. Many of my relatives in the Mid. East prefer wearing abayas, burqas, hijabs, etc. since they don't have to worry about dressing up and wearing makeup. Even the ones who now live here prefer it since they feel more respected. They really only wear it in public as there's no need at home or around other women. They see women who wear short skirts, showing off skin, as slaves of Western culture. They don't want to be ogled at or have men undressing them in their heads. They don't worry about problems like anorexia in their society like we do here. They aren't obsessed about body image like we are here. They say that we treat women like meat, while they are treated with more honor and dignity. They also find it odd that the men and women here aren't as jealous. They see Western men as slightly cuckold-ish, letting people do whatever they want with their wives, daughters, and sisters. Sure, places like Saudi Arabia have equality problems, but most other countries are not as strict. There are a few other remote places with messed up practices, like honor killings and pedophilia, but that is certainly not the norm--and we have our own messed up issues here.

its called culture

its not up to us to change their culture ... its up to them

but since the US keep bombing there, they cant evolve ... they still live at stone age ^^