To all female ATS members, who support the ways of the middle east.

reply to post by LadySkadi

I'm betting there are very few people who aren't horrified by abuse and oppression, no matter what the cause. Does the cause really matter? And can it or does it really even be quantified down to such a broad a category as religion? It's a human condition.

I think people actually might not know how to make a difference. There are ways to both understand and help without rushing to judging or making moves that you think are helping that might in fact be making things worse for the very people you're trying to help. The first thing you have to do if see if they're even willing to accept help. And, if so, what kind.


[edit on 8/1/2010 by ~Lucidity]

I'm a female, neopagan, socially progressive, fiscally very conservative Ron Paul supporter.

You put on a black beekeeper suit and go over there. They'll probably never know the difference anyway.

I wouldn't even go over there if there were peace for years and someone paid me to go.

Knew nursing friends who went there raving about the $$ they made in the Saudi hospitals. I actually consider them traitors.

I don't like the Saudi's, I don't like the UAE. I don't understand why if someone of them can run around in a burka, why my husband can't run around in a gold g-string with a spliff in each hand. Freedom. huh.

I know a secret. Men don't oppress women all by themselves. Women teach their daughters. Women teach their sons.

Today I sat with a group of friends and I sat in a half lotus. I saw one of our more religious members looking at me, and I knew it was b/c she considered I wasn't sitting like a lady.

I'd rather be a free thinking PERSON. Not a human alive that doesn't have a crotch. Big deal, quit thinking with them and about them and we might get along.

So I am a woman, but I am very weary of "hand wringing what about the children??" women AND men.

What kind of scared men are so afraid of women that they do that to them? They'd kill an old yoga sittin witch like me.
ETA

And by the way, why do American sexist men always like to throw it in our face that MY SEX is enslaved somewhere and that a lot of men would like to see it happen here? What's your point?

[edit on 1-8-2010 by hadriana]

[edit on 8/1/2010 by ~Lucidity]

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Sure. I think people may feel that way too, but the tendency is to sweep it under the covers by claiming (or hiding) behind the "it's their culture/religion/etc" and it is demonstrated day in and out on this forum. Perhaps it's easier to deal with? If so, very sad because that makes it about the person and not about the problems women face in other parts of the world.

[edit on 1-8-2010 by LadySkadi]

reply to post by Unity_99


Very simple. Women are continually treated as less than second-hand citizens in many countries across the planet. Yet the women in countries where they can legally speak out, without being killed, simply do not. Why is this? WHOLE POINT OF THREAD. Not to propogate war. Not to attack specific religions, but to simply ask, "why don't you care?" and "Why aren't you doing anything?". Or even simpler "Why are you supporting those that propogate this?"

reply to post by LadySkadi


I get what you're saying. Truly. I'm sure there are many who dismiss it from their thoughts and lives in just this way...and others who go to the other radical extreme and simply condemn a religion. As if that's going to make life any easier for anyone.

reply to post by dreamwalker74


I have a Mother, three sisters, A fiance who I love, and many female friends. I see the way they would be treated in other parts of the world, and it makes me sick. They can not start their own revolution. It is up to you who have all the freedoms that you do, to stand for them, and end their servitude.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by LadySkadi

 

I think people actually might not know how to make a difference. There are ways to both understand and help without rushing to judging or making moves that you think are helping that might in fact be making things worse for the very people you're trying to help. The first thing you have to do if see if they're even willing to accept help. And, if so, what kind.


[edit on 8/1/2010 by ~Lucidity]

I don't think the OP is really talking about "helping" as much as he is talking about being "aware" of it and not being so closed minded as to think it isn't a part of an agenda when they come here to our soil and buy up property. When some (not all) spew words that they know we want to hear because we want to believe they are here for the right reasons and dont question enough.



[edit on 1-8-2010 by sweetliberty]

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
Those who blame "religion" for this might also be discounting cultural factors and just plain insanity. It's not as if abuse of women is limited to a particular religion. It happens everyday all over the world. Even in the good ole USA.

I suppose you have no idea that Christianity is a huge part of the "culture" you speak of that has allowed women to be treated in the ways in which you speak.

You should do a little research on the impact of Christianity on women in Europe during the time frame when that religion was spreading northwards. It too is a middle eastern religion, lest you forget.

While Europe was never the mother goddess worshiping feminist paradise many modern day pagans would like to retroactively turn it into, it was much more egalitarian, particularly in the British Isles than any middle eastern or Mediterranean nation state was in its time frame as the writing of many horrified Roman and other historians of the time will attest.

Originally posted by LostNemesis
I am female.

I feel that whether or not I support how they treat women in the middle east, it is NOT our place, or anyones' to be policing the world. I am sure we have practices that people in other countries don't approve of.

It's just not our place to tell people on the other side of the world how to live.

VERY well said. This is the thing most people don't stop to think about. It is not our place to dictate how other cultures live and it is not our responsibility either. Take care of those in your own country and send foreign aid to poorer countries with (relatively) non-corrupt Governments.

History has shown over and over and over again that meddling in the affairs of other countries and attempting to change their society and social norms is a bad idea.

[edit on 1/8/2010 by Dark Ghost]

But now for some very sad truths about this world. The reason that this isn't done, is akin to the very reason that Saudi Arabia has been promoting Sharia law and burkas for decades, even to the point of offering diapers, and formula. Saudi Arabia is also good friends with the Bush's, the Bloodlines, and the British Royal Family along with the Rothchild's. This system of abuse is their dream system and they want to set up a kind of psuedo religious fascist dicatorship for us and return the survivors of their genocide over the next few decades into serfs.

And, the reason TR3B's and ufo technology would never be provided aside from their non-disclosure stuff relates to what is buried in the desert, and to the bases there. And what has been controlling our planet, and is very closely related to the visible head of the pyramid, the Royal Family and the Rothschilds.

Think what likes a desert? What have the mayan, and the aborigiones of Australia spoken of for years, oh, I'll find some links perhaps. Really, what likes a desert?

I was told by a very knowledgeable friend, that humans are not allowed to know that the snakes are loose in the field and running the system.

here

notre dame

here

here
endinburgh castle

here
dragon China

here
Mayan Winged Serpent!

Do you understand yet?

reply to post by sweetliberty


Perhaps. Still does not change the point I'm trying to make. This thread is an example of what I am speaking of. When attention is drawn, or the attempt to make aware the situations of women in other parts of the world, and especially if that happens to be a place of political fire, than all information and attention that is directed toward an issue is reduced to "that of propaganda"...

[edit on 1-8-2010 by LadySkadi]

reply to post by dreamwalker74


Thank you, and that is why I starred and flagged it, for this issue should not be buried and avoided like it is all the time. People don't support the wars, and its very hard to solve, it deals not only with international politics, religions, but also with the bloodlines and their agendas here. I want this planet freed and all people, all women and children and good men equal and living in relative harmony, with no expectations for perfection or corporal punitive systems.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Come on Lucidity. "Raise their voices". I know that is an obscure thought. .. Gee women are in slavery around the planet, whether it be from Government or religion. Though I probably shouldn't say anything about it, because it will be taken as attacking someone. Are you serious? Simply asking more people to speak out. You're right though, nobody should say anything if it is against a specific religion. Religion is always right. Not to be demeaning, because I respect you, but look what you are asking.

Originally posted by dreamwalker74
reply to post by ~Lucidity

 

Never once supported war to solve this, and am still outraged by the lack of female retaliation in defence of other women. Especially in the countries where we have free speach. Such as the U.S.A.

I actually agree with this. The problem is that we are the haute-ladies of the past who didn't think women in Western societies needed freedom either. Because they, unlike other women, were COMFORTABLE.

Comfort can be a great promoter of creativity. It can also be a horrible demotivator.

It is a good thing that most important things are done by the few.

reply to post by sweetliberty


I think the entire title and premise of the thread might be a bit unclear to me. Who "supports" abuse but maybe a few whack jobs?

You, young lady, are an infidel! Go make me a fresh bowl of dirt soup and clean up the cave!


[edit on 1-8-2010 by spinalremain]

Originally posted by sweetliberty
I believe the OP is suggesting we women stop long enough to walk into the shoes of the oppressed.
I don't believe he is talking about women who "choose" to live their, but how they are treated and I feel the same mentality and culture exists with them when they are on our soil.

I do not think all are of that mindset but many are.

I believe if we walked a mile in the shoes of the oppressed, we would take more into consideration before taking a stand.

If I walked a mile in the shoes of the oppressed, without first donning the way of thinking that makes it okay, and then came back out again into my own life.....

I am not mentally damaged enough to hunker down and give thanks for getting way to a good life.

I wouldn't be more considerate. I'd be homicidal.

reply to post by dreamwalker74


Lets assume your motives are pure.

If so, you should focus on ending the US involvement in that region that is driving the civil wars that in turn is facilitating the religious fanaticism there.

Killing Saddam Hussein did more to damage womens rights in Iraq than it did to help them.

www.pbs.org...

"People didn't go hungry in those days in Iraq," Quandt said. "Saddam improved the school system in Iraq and literacy for women was phenomenal for that of an Arab country at the time."

In a 2001 interview, Aburish discussed the support for the dictator with PBS's Frontline.

"We knew Saddam was tough. But the balance was completely different then. He was also delivering. The Iraqi people were getting a great deal of things that they needed and wanted and he was popular."

And mind you, I am no fan of Saddam and his mentally ill sons. (Who were monsters by all accounts) But American intervention down there is working against womens rights. Just like it did in Afghanistan, and earlier still, in Iran.

en.wikipedia.org...

The revolution was populist, nationalist and later Shi'a Islamic. It was in part a conservative backlash against the Westernizing and secularizing efforts of the Western-backed Shah,[18] and not-so-conservative reaction to social injustice and other shortcomings of the ancien régime.[19] The Shah was perceived by many as beholden to — if not a puppet of — a non-Muslim Western power (the United States)[20][21] whose culture was contaminating that of Iran.

Those countries were making strides, not as fast as you might seem to want, but left alone, and given time to progress at their own pace, they would have likely become more moderate over time. Our meddling and pushing is not making the plight of women over there any better. At all. Far from it.

And your government NEVER acts on human rights. It uses the argument of human rights to sell you on economic policies it wants to pursue despite the human cost of those polices. Your sympathies are being played by the PTB so that they can pursue an agenda that has nothing to do with the people of that region.

And if you dont believe that, pay close attention to who they do NOT publicize as violators of human rights, and who they do NOT want to intervene on behalf of. Which is, in short, any human beings in a country ruled no matter how brutally by someone playing ball with them, or any human beings in countries that have nothing their rich friends want.

[edit on 8/1/2010 by ~Lucidity]