Say goodbye 1st Amendment: It's illegal to pray on the grounds of the Supreme Court

Originally posted by FortAnthem

Originally posted by evil incarnate


What law are you speaking of? I asked a question about the people who were apparently prevented from praying. What law are you talking about?

*sigh*

Doesn't anyone read the OP anymore?


It was posted right in the OP, please pay attention next time.

Yeah um...the thing is. I read that just fine. I do not see how it has anything to do with anything I asked in my post though so I am asking what that law might be, thanks.

reply to post by evil incarnate

I did not call anyone a hypocrite, did I? I also do not recall saying no one had a right to do anything. I am simply asking why a very personal private moment with your savior needs to be a public spectacle?

No one accused you of calling anyone a hypocrite, and if you were careful to read my post you would have understood that I was calling those Christians hypocrites, and certainly Jesus had suggested it was hypocrisy, and I am now advocating hypocrisy, (in terms of suggesting that both Fort Anthem and I go to D.C. and openly pray as Christians), in the name of freedom. Get it?

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

Originally posted by evil incarnate

Yeah um...the thing is. I read that just fine. I do not see how it has anything to do with anything I asked in my post though so I am asking what that law might be, thanks.

Are you being prevented from praying in church, or better yet in private where you can really concentrate on your thoughts?

OK, I see what you were talking about. There is no law that prevents people from worshiping in church or in private.

The issue here is that the Constitution clearly prohibits the government from restricting religious expression. People shouldn't be force to go hide in the catacombs (figuratively speaking) in order to pray. Being free to express our religion in public is one of the fundamental rights upon which this country was founded.

No amendment can stop you from having a thought in your head. Prayer is between you and your God, if it is inappropriate to pray because of location, not wishing to offend, ect, all you have to do is think about it. No one can stop you.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
No one accused you of calling anyone a hypocrite, and if you were careful to read my post you would have understood that I was calling those Christians hypocrites, and certainly Jesus had suggested it was hypocrisy, and I am now advocating hypocrisy, (in terms of suggesting that both Fort Anthem and I go to D.C. and openly pray as Christians), in the name of freedom. Get it?

No, I really do not.

You are telling me that you understand Jesus wanted us to pray in private or at least not make it a show.
So, you want to defy Jesus to make the point that you have the legal right to defy Jesus?

Just because you feel you have the right to do something, does it mean you should? I would not let a group of people gather in my yard to pray either. When should I be expecting you to come defy Jesus just to protest me?

Do you see the confusion?

Originally posted by FortAnthem
OK, I see what you were talking about. There is no law that prevents people from worshiping in church or in private.

So we at least agree that here in America, you can still pray if you like?

The issue here is that the Constitution clearly prohibits the government from restricting religious expression. People shouldn't be force to go hide in the catacombs (figuratively speaking) in order to pray. Being free to express our religion in public is one of the fundamental rights upon which this country was founded.

Do you really feel it both should be legal, and seems appropriate to take these things to public buildings where people are trying to do the work of running the country? Would it make more sense to go pray on the steps of your local state run medical center? How about an aircraft carrier? Would these be places you are willing to fight for the right to do something that is really only beneficial when it is sincere and not being used as a political football?

[edit on 7/16/10 by evil incarnate]

reply to post by evil incarnate

Just because you feel you have the right to do something, does it mean you should? I would not let a group of people gather in my yard to pray either.

Your yard is YOUR private property. You have every right to tell people not to pray there.

The Supreme Court is PUBLIC PROPERTY. Being as that the Constitution prohibits the government from inhibiting the right of religious expression, it is just and proper to protest that unjust law.

And, no, just because I have a right to do something does not mean that I should do it. It means that the government has no standing to prevent me from acting within my rights whenever I choose to exercise those rights though.

Edit to add:

Do you really feel it both should be legal, and seems appropriate to take these things to public buildings where people are trying to do the work of running the country? Would it make more sense to go pray on the steps of your local state run medical center? How about an aircraft carrier? Would these be places you are willing to fight for the right to do something that is really only beneficial when it is sincere and not being used as a political football?

It should definitely be legal, the Constitution clearly states so. Whether it would be appropriate is another matter. I too don't like to see people use their religion for "political football" as you put it. Still, they have the right to do so if they so choose.

The people in the article weren't even trying to make a statement or disrupt anything with their prayers. They made it a point to say their prayers out of the way and were in no way being disruptive. They were simply praying quietly when the police officer approached and threatened them.



[edit on 7/17/10 by FortAnthem]

Last time I checked there was a separation between church and state.

Last time I checked, you could not block the right of way.

Last time I checked, you still do have the freedom of speech.

Originally posted by whatukno
Last time I checked there was a separation between church and state.

Last time I checked, you could not block the right of way.

Last time I checked, you still do have the freedom of speech.

The last time you checked, you must have checked some other source than the Constitution. Separation of Church of State is not a Constitutional mandate, and is a phrase Thomas Jefferson used to politely tell the Danbury Baptists that he would not argue on their behalf in Establshing the Baptist religion in their state. The Establishment Clause prohibits government from establishing one religion over another, it does not prohibit people from exercising their right of worship.

Prove those people were blocking other peoples right of way, and then you will have an argument. Merely assuming a right of way was being blocked is not enough.

At least you got the last one right.

Originally posted by FortAnthem
Your yard is YOUR private property. You have every right to tell people not to pray there.

So I can allow prayer but I can also limit crowding, right?

The Supreme Court is PUBLIC PROPERTY. Being as that the Constitution prohibits the government from inhibiting the right of religious expression, it is just and proper to protest that unjust law.

Were people being stopped from praying? How did anyone know who was praying and who was not? Where is the specific documentation showing that the violation was the act of prayer?

So you can enter the SC building and have a picnic?

How is defying your god in an attempt to protest a law that he does not seem to mind logical at all? If he wants you to pray in private, what is the point of proving you can make it a public spectacle?

And, no, just because I have a right to do something does not mean that I should do it. It means that the government has no standing to prevent me from acting within my rights whenever I choose to exercise those rights though.

I am not disputing that but prayer seems specifically ironic to me. Your lord wants you to do it in the privacy of your heart. The cop at the SC building does not want so many people to stand around doing anything together. You feel that you should defy your god and this cop in order to prove...?

Originally posted by whatukno
Last time I checked there was a separation between church and state.

Separation of church and state means the government has no business dictating religion. It doesn't prohibit private religious expression.

Last time I checked, you could not block the right of way.

They were not blocking the right of way, they stopped momentarily to pray in an out of the way spot before continuing their tour.

Last time I checked, you still do have the freedom of speech.

Not on the grounds of the Supreme Court according to that law.

Originally posted by FortAnthem
It should definitely be legal, the Constitution clearly states so. Whether it would be appropriate is another matter. I too don't like to see people use their religion for "political football" as you put it. Still, they have the right to do so if they so choose.

Do they really? Do people really have the right to violate say...fire codes in the name of religious freedom?

The people in the article weren't even trying to make a statement or disrupt anything with their prayers. They mad it a point to say their prayers out of the way and were in no way being disruptive. They were simply praying quietly when the police officer approached and threatened them.

So they were gathered in a group in clear violation of the statute you posted for me just a bit ago?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Prove those people were blocking other peoples right of way, and then you will have an argument. Merely assuming a right of way was being blocked is not enough.

Is it enough to just assume this cop can read minds and is walking around pin-pointing only people speaking to god in their heads?

reply to post by evil incarnate

You are telling me that you understand Jesus wanted us to pray in private or at least not make it a show. So, you want to defy Jesus to make the point that you have the legal right to defy Jesus?

When Jesus fed his followers he would bless the food. Was he being hypocritical in openly thanking God for that food? When Jesus offered up The Lord's Prayer as the only way to pray, was he not in public? Jesus was a teacher of the Old Testament, that book offers Ecclesiastes 3:

To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

When it is time to speak, then those who know that time should speak. If that speech is best communicated by prayer, then it should be so. If you declare this a defiance of Jesus, you should also know that Jesus warned against false prophets. If you do not see it as a time to speak, then remain silent. I am not your prophet, or are you mine.

Just because you feel you have the right to do something, does it mean you should? I would not let a group of people gather in my yard to pray either. When should I be expecting you to come defy Jesus just to protest me?

Your yard is your private property, and you have the right to dictate what goes on in your own private property. You do not have the right to dictate what goes on in public, unless what goes on in public is crime. Praying in public is not a crime. Any statute or ordinance that would declare it so, is in direct defiance of The Constitution for The United States of America, which is The Supreme Law of the Land. Let my open prayer on the steps of The Supreme Court be judged by God, not you, or would you defy Jesus and judge me too?

reply to post by evil incarnate

Is it enough to just assume this cop can read minds and is walking around pin-pointing only people speaking to god in their heads?

You are making an assumption. The letter posted in the O.P. states:

The Alliance Defense Fund sent a letter to U.S. Supreme Court officials Thursday that urges them to stop their police officers from prohibiting people from quietly praying outside the court building. Christian teacher Maureen Rigo, her students, and a few adults were told by a court police officer that they must stop praying there because it was against the law.

This letter is merely hearsay, but hearsay is not prima facie evidence it is a lie. Are you privy to some other information that contradicts the statement made in this letter?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I see great, no JPZ, I don't want to get into yet ANOTHER argument with you. Really, it's tiresome.

All I am saying is, if you give that favor to those people talking with their invisible friend, next thing you know, you have to give the Westboro Baptist Church time to scream "God Hates Fags!" to everyone in earshot.

If they were allowed to do that, then it would be establishment of that faith over any other.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by whatukno
Last time I checked there was a separation between church and state.

Last time I checked, you could not block the right of way.

Last time I checked, you still do have the freedom of speech.

The last time you checked, you must have checked some other source than the Constitution. Separation of Church of State is not a Constitutional mandate, and is a phrase Thomas Jefferson used to politely tell the Danbury Baptists that he would not argue on their behalf in Establshing the Baptist religion in their state.

The last time I checked, separation of church and state was for equal protection from the undue influence of the other. What many of you are touting is freedom of religion so you obviously do not want this to be a Christian nation, right? So, do you want your Christianity Republican, Democrat, or Fake Doctor Rand Paul flavored?

Why would anyone want to make praying on government property a priority anyway? You are still free to pray. You even have buildings dedicated to just that? The only good to come from trying to jam religion into politics is the Bristol Palin Abstinence Only Teaching Czar.

I guess I just do not understand the concept here. I see no one being prevented from praying anywhere. What I see are people getting upset and using prayer to fight for some right that dedication to the deity in said prayers actually precludes them from exercising. I guess I am still missing something.

Are you all sure this is not just an excuse to angrily protest anything seen by this government as an excuse to angrily protest or is there a need to gather and pray in the SC building?

reply to post by whatukno

All I am saying is, if you give that favor to those people talking with their invisible friend, next thing you know, you have to give the Westboro Baptist Church time to scream "God Hates Fags!" to everyone in earshot.

When people exercise their inalienable right to worship no one is giving favor of this, and as repulsive as it may be to listen to any Church scream that God hates anybody, their fundamental right to speech still exists.

If they were allowed to do that, then it would be establishment of that faith over any other.

No it would not be. If the government passed a law that said God hates fags, this would be an establishment of on faith over others. There is a big difference here, and you continually seem to confuse the prohibitions placed upon government by the Bill of Rights as prohibitions placed upon the people. This is your confusion, and the only Amendment that ever placed a prohibition upon the people was the 18th Amendment, and that one did not go over so well with the people.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
When Jesus fed his followers he would bless the food. Was he being hypocritical in openly thanking God for that food?

Did he call a press conference to complain that he was told not to gather in a place where you are not allowed to gather after?

When Jesus offered up The Lord's Prayer as the only way to pray, was he not in public?

What property was he on? Could he smoke there? Hang out naked? Could he start a fire?

Jesus was a teacher of the Old Testament, that book offers Ecclesiastes 3:

Please, I have enough bibles I have little need for esoteric poetry from a crazy book. Thanks just the same but since I can not respond to the bible, I get tired of having it used in place of original thoughts here.

When it is time to speak, then those who know that time should speak. If that speech is best communicated by prayer, then it should be so. If you declare this a defiance of Jesus, you should also know that Jesus warned against false prophets. If you do not see it as a time to speak, then remain silent. I am not your prophet, or are you mine.

Where was anyone being stopped from praying? Where did Jesus command they cluster in a group in a public thoroughfare to take this time? You cannot use Jesus to say he commanded people pray when they prayed as an excuse while discounting the fact that he never detailed they must stop moving or gather in a group to do so.

Your yard is your private property, and you have the right to dictate what goes on in your own private property. You do not have the right to dictate what goes on in public, unless what goes on in public is crime.

Were these people charged with a crime or asked to move along? I ask because public places have fire codes and I have looked. There is no provision that states prayer supersedes fire codes. I hope you can see where I might be going with that.

Praying in public is not a crime. Any statute or ordinance that would declare it so, is in direct defiance of The Constitution for The United States of America, which is The Supreme Law of the Land. Let my open prayer on the steps of The Supreme Court be judged by God, not you, or would you defy Jesus and judge me too?

Show me where anyone was charged with the crime of prayer, please.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
You are making an assumption. The letter posted in the O.P. states:

I know this seems an odd concept on ATS but questions have a really difficult time also being assumptions.

This letter is merely hearsay, but hearsay is not prima facie evidence it is a lie. Are you privy to some other information that contradicts the statement made in this letter?

Why would you think I was?