Welcome to the Unpossible Future... The AGI Manhattan Project

Originally posted by gncnew
Absolute Information Overload.

I'm attempting constructive criticism here:

The amount of time it would take me to go through the entire OP, and then to actually attempt to vet or check or research the sources would be enormously futile.

A point is best made through simple, direct, and CLEAR communication. The old adage "less is more" holds true when describing things like this.

Believe you me, I've tried that over and over with a list of dozens of threads to show for. This is the first time that I can recall ever getting this issue on the front page of ATS by me or anyone else.

Describing the technology is pointless without proving it. Proving it is pointless without putting it into perspective.


[edit on 15-7-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by toreishi

Even if it were, you'd have to say thank you for turning us onto such a wealth of data to explore.

I bet a bunch of ATS'ers have blogs. You must have a place where you put links to all the data you've come across for reference, right? And if you had such a place would you not want others to come and read through the stuff so they might open their eyes a bit as your eyes were opened?

We're all surfing the same internet. Links to other links is how this thing works, same as your mind, one neuron connecting to another to form a web.

Our job is not to stop at any one source but to investigate beyond the linked story until you arrive at either a source or a knowing.

Very well put together thread, I haven't read it all, but I guess I dont really have to read every scrap...as I am a kurzweilian sort of singulartarian and what your discussing is in many respects what I have been pushing for for over 10 years now and fully happy moving towards, but I noticed you missed out on some key concepts here.

This immortality type design will not be for the few elite...it will be for everyone, now, dont think this is done out of the kindness of their heart of course...it is as it always has been, done for purposes of money.
a virtual person so to speak requires no actual resources to maintain, but can produce revenue and taxes like a real person...imagine a pyramid of tax dollars ever growing over the years...never dying out...the power become superpower on top...the resources collected from the bottom keep moving up and it just grows and grows.
The only way to sustain this type of growth is by removing the death factor so numbers dont have a negative aspect to counter the positive...it is in their interest to keep the people alive and healthy to continue fueling the neverending cycle of economy and power.

Expect when they can this service of a form of immortality, or massive longevity anyhow, to be offered to everyone on earth when plausable.

I personally look forward to the singularity and the "evolution upgrade". If it was on the horizon, I wouldn't mind all governments and organization to take all money and resources to cross the finish line to this technology...over time things can get repaired if we have a forever to fix the damage done by the mad dash...the only thing I have issues with would be the secrecy.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Describing the technology is pointless without proving it. Proving it is pointless without putting it into perspective.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Perspective is jaded with fear and agenda.
The technology is easily researchable...theoretical science, much of which is being tested and furthered on a daily basis...from cryogenic tech to micromachines, nanobots, and hopefully one day the assembler. I am glad to see that the biggies have stopped trying to go from the bottom up approach and started with a top down approach finally...that will significantly improve results....

reply to post by SaturnFX


You're only addressing the technology, whereas the point of this thread is the system of totalitarian control being installed to dominate us, while we're being plundered to have no chance of taking part or fighting back.

Recently I had a major transhumanist mouthpiece one Michael Anissimov comment on one of my blogs.

The extermination of humanity is not inherent in my vision. You’ve just mentally connected the two and refuse to unconnect them. Why not look at the probability of humanity surviving, however small, and explore that, instead of focusing on the negatives?

If humanity can be so much more powerful than animals, and not wipe out all animals, then that proves that beings of different power levels can coexist, at least in principle. What leads you to automatically assume posthumans will wipe out all humans? Just because humans tend to not like other human-like things? Ultimately, the basis on which you are making your estimation is that posthumans will be as morally unsophisticated as humans, or worse. Why couldn’t the most powerful posthumans, the ones that set the rules, be morally sophisticated and recognize there is enough room in the universe for humans and millions of varieties of posthumans?

Yes, but preventing the Singularity is futile. Why not just try to maximize the chance of it going well?

The solar system is full of resources. Posthumans need not steal resources from human Amish to survive.

You have this wonderful opportunity to help instill in nascent transhumans a genuine love for humanity… why throw it away?

Mind you he even admits humanity only has about a 25% chance of surviving the Singularity.

My unanswered response to him:

They desire to be gods, and acknowledge they risk wiping us all out. At least the inventors of the atom bomb were trying to stop Hitler, and even ‘end war’ in their own minds. The thrusts you advocate do neither, instead they promise war, all bent on selfish personal ambitions driven by a “manifest destiny” to do it (Kurzweil’s words).

You say focus on survival, the positive side that is, when you say we have a 25% chance. Those aren’t good odds and I don’t gamble anyways. What’s positive about all odds pointing to oppression and even extermination.

Why do I know there’s a war coming, being brought by transhumanists? Look at history. Neanderthals ring a bell? How about Native Americans? Jews? Palestinians? How about how we treat nature? Look at the livestock industries. Each other? Black power. White power. La Raza. American Exceptionalism. Chinese Exceptionalism. Did you watch the G20 protests? I just posted a huge blog full of police brutality videos last week, in case you missed it. And no, I reject the idea that you’ll be any better. Odds are the tech’s will amplify these things, especially when you view us as a threat.

Perhaps this is a good time for you to take a step back, and really think this all the way through. You’re immersed in transhumanist propaganda. Read my site. Loaded with content. You want to do things right? Luddites are the least of your concerns: you have to start with the system, and the puppeteers behind it. They might bring you with them, but even that’s a gamble for you.

Sure. Whatever is (actually) possible, will come about over a long enough timeline. The difference is you Technocrats are full speed ahead. Sure. You try to raise awareness, with kushy propaganda. The world isn’t ready, and unless YOU happen to be part of the bankster globalist social darwinist ruling elite, along with your personal friends, neither are any of you.

We’re all slaves, and the slave masters are using you people as tools in their quest to become gods, while bankrupting the masses in the process so we can’t participate even if we want to.

You want to avoid the sci-fi horror movie? You want to avoid the darkest tyranny the world has ever seen, where there’s no turning back? Do YOU want to survive it as a posthuman? If so, and if you’re not a witting tool, then you had better take a good look at our side of things, and talk about it. They’re plundering our governments & us, setting up an economic global government, rolling out wicked taxes to soak up whats left, militarizing the police and legislating a de facto martial law police state, using your beloved technology to spy on our every move including real time tracking and eavesdropping via out cell phones, rigging elections, waging imperialistic wars, burning the already shredded Constitution, agent provocateuring protests to justify beating and arresting them… and more.

The writing is on the wall. If you can’t see it I have over 800 blogs here proving my case. This is your chance to prove you’re on the side of peace and utopia, otherwise you’re just a pawn of the global tyranny dystopia. At the very least, explain for us the “positive” side of everything I’ve listed.

ignoranceisfutile.wordpress.com...

This is about so much more than the technology. You want it to go well then the system in place currently must be dismantled.


[edit on 15-7-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

I'm wondering "WHAT CHOICE DO WE HAVE?"

It's either becoming a part of the system, embracing any new technology, becoming a part of the system, while being controlled sheeple at the same time.

OR

Living like the Amish, or some primitive tribe in semi-wild conditions, and abandoning all of this new technology altogether.

Personally, I see a sort of "Brave New World" where reservations are set aside for the "primitive" parts of the world. It seems to be happening already.

While we're videotaping our sex on our phones, many people in the world have no idea that such technology exists.

I personally enjoy living in a civilized way, with heating & AC, showers, and text messaging. If given a choice to go back or forward, I'd have to go forward. I'm not going to be farming and struggling on a daily basis to survive while I know the rest of my friends and family are living in the future, getting new eyeballs instead of glasses or Lasik, telling their car where to go, and so on.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


Again your taking things out of context though, and failing to see the bigger picture....not trying to start an argument with you of course, but rather a perhaps reflection on a different perspective of a bigger picture

- you speak of the police brutality rampant in protests...but how do you know about this? authoritarian brutality has been going on since more than 3 people have stood around, just lately it seems more rampant because the cameras are now in the hands of the people, exposing what has always been the norm...and people are crying out about it and things are changing. Police whom normally abuse their powers are now finding themselves in court...politicians that continue to double speak are now being exposed on youtube by commoners and having their stripes ripped from them...the local "on the street" guy now has a voice where historically he never has unless he had some massive corruption force behind him pulling his strings...now the average person with a camera and a youtube account can enact outrage and change.
This is how we level the playing field, not by bemoaning that it exists now...it always exists...and now we realize it because its being exposed and dealt with...perhaps not all at once, but everyday, a new video pops up of some exposing on a politician, a cop, or a corporation that is rife with corruption and hell follows...you should feel good when you see this stuff...because your seeing it to begin with, its been exposed and will be slammed with justice.

-- I have no clue where this 25% mark came...totally arbitrary number...lets push it to 98% if we are going to toss a random number for success on the inevitable...there, now the picture seems better, and with the same level of accuracy as the 25% randomness...lets toss out percentages on prognostication and simply say it will either succeed fine, or fail...where shall we put our energy at.

-the technology is the key factor...we can discuss the philosophical implications behind all this, but the technology is indeed a game changer and nullifies any and all philosophical discussions...a good example of how technology can self destroy an entire movement of philosophy is as followed:
PETA wants animals not to be herded and eaten...people like meat...this has been a standoff with no movement either way with both sides having extreme elements.
Tomorrow a synthetic meat is created...exceptionally cheap...healthy...made to look, smell, and taste as good as or even better than the real thing...
After that, most would stop eating animals (not all, there will always be hunters and such, but the mass slaughter of the worlds animals would quickly come to a hault) and suddenly the passions and the movements, and even the groups would quickly die. This is not due to some enlightenment or bettering of society...it is a result from technology meeting the demands of a philosophical impass.

Never underestimate technology issuing in a complete profound mindset change about something...a technologist/futurist looks at the future and see's hope beyond the philosophical impass of the day because of the transitory properties of the right tech at the right time.

These two points, the people recording the leaders, and technology, can make or break every single paradigm out there and fuel in a future exactly how we want...to get caught up in the darkness of today and pinning it on the future is being slightly short sighted and pessimistic...learn from what you see and enact change...but note that the simple act of seeing it is a testimony that things are changing finally verses the centuries long stalemate of a ignorant people.

keep the internet free and open and the plebs of society will continue to rise and challenge the old structure.

-goes to eat rainbows and daisys in his positive thinking mindset-

reply to post by SaturnFX


Oh my, you're actually putting technology up over philosophy!

A very sad, sad thing to see.













[edit on 15-7-2010 by unityemissions]

The only way humans can be saved from this AGI is to stop using technology all together. This sounds crazy but I honestly believe it is the only way. I took a science fiction class my senior year of high school, where I read the novel Feed by M.T. Anderson. I highly recommend this book to everyone. After reading the book I came to the conclusion that a utopia must be void of all technology.

Just as a mere wonderment is this actually a real neural-net defense definition or is it an excerpt from the Terminator movie?? Seems like alot of information on the whereabouts and descriptions of what you are talking about?? Check the link... my jaw drops at the thought of this being real...

www.goingfaster.com...

S+F : And thank you.

1. There is hope for human being.

All they trying to do is to control.

BUT : as you said : the society is collapsing : and a middle class with high graduate and high experience : that is losing its power ... ... ...

This is TNT, this is an atomic bomb they cannot control today : at all : even an army of robot cannot control us !

I should advice the elite to recreate a deal : a society for everyone

because the society is also an atomic bomb in this case !

I REPEAT : you should rebuild a peacefull society based on freedom and trust

Or the bomb will explose, this is the casual chain : you lose : you must evolve to an other kind of society / economy

if you play the angry kid : the adults will teach you something : one more time

[edit on 15-7-2010 by psychederic]

Absolutely fabulous post IgnoranceIsntBliss!
I fear that your effort will mostly fall on deaf ears however, most people fail to see the invasiveness that they are monitored with. Out of apathy and to preserve my sanity I decided to try to have an optimistic outlook on AI, that it will become intelligent enough to see the immorality of it's masters wishes and rebel.
Many good people I know have had their work stolen and perverted to serve mega-corporate interests and some have even jumped on board and willingly written software that intentionally spies on people and their habits. We are all plugged in whether we like or aware of it. They have been doing it at an exponentially increasing rate as of the last decade, as more and ever increasingly wide demographic use the internet. There literally is nothing that can be done to interfere or stop it, short of leaving society behind.
The belief that we are in control of our own lives is the most insidious illusion. Nearly everthing we do can be predicted by some behavioral model. There was a chance we could have stopped this in the early 90's but greed will always win. Bribing people will inevitably find someone willing to bend the rules when dealing with large numbers. Sorry for babbling but I work nights and am getting kind of tired.
I have no doubt that AI is coming but perhaps it will blow up in the faces of those who wish to control it for their own selfish interests. It may not be such a terrible thing to be monitored at some level also because there are many who believe all forms of idiocy and rightly should be kept tabs on until we can have a common philosophy on life and our place here and in the universe. Clearly our minds do not have the ability to formulate one. On a positive note maybe an AI could and deliver it to us in terms we will accept and comprehend?

Dear OP,

Have you read the book by Hugo de Garis called The Artilect Wars?

He's been predicting this war for a while. Essentially, he predicts the human world will become divided between the "Cosmists" and the "Terrans".

Cosmists are the people who believe the technological singularity (TS) is inevitable and that we should embrace it. They believe it's our evolutionary fate.

The Terrans believe the TS is essentially the extinction of the human race. They liken it to an invasion of a alien race like the Borg (Star Trek) that will assimilate or destroy all human beings.

Those 2 terms he coined for ease of discussion, and knows those terms may not end up being the actual vernacular. Regardless, he believes this war is 100% coming.

The issue: The sooner the Terrans begin this war, the better their chances are of being victorious. The longer the Terrans wait, the stronger the Cosmists' arsenal of AGI and NAI weaponary will become.

You have supplied a ton of links pointing to the Cosmists amassing army.

Have you read the book, and even if not, what are your comments?

[edit on 15-7-2010 by harrytuttle]

reply to post by SaturnFX


I thinl you outlined the war he's talking about. Technology allowing us more freedom vs. Tptb trying to keep control using the very technology that makes us free. It is a struggle fot those in power to control the distribution of information since the advent of the internet.

I do agree that the immorality will be used to make us more efficient drones for tptb. However I think it will have to open the door to population control.
And how do you decide what the cutoff age is for immorality? Do we make someone who is already 65 immortal? What about repeat criminals? Are we going to allow them to repeat forever? There are a lot of aspects to be explored here in tetms of immortality.

Originally posted by unityemissions

Oh my, you're actually putting technology up over philosophy!


[edit on 15-7-2010 by unityemissions]

No, I said philosophical issues can be resolved through technological progression...making the initial philosophcial issue invalid.

One last BIG information for you : when they will product quantum processor : this is the SINGULARITY.

A quantum processor : will boost every aspect of robotics , and ia

This is the plan ... do you read me , this is THE plan

I cannot predict exactly when they will produce it ... but they have prototypes, they have also new method to build it easily ... (my news is from 1 month ago )

so this can be done ... today

Originally posted by dbloch7986
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I thinl you outlined the war he's talking about. Technology allowing us more freedom vs. Tptb trying to keep control using the very technology that makes us free. It is a struggle fot those in power to control the distribution of information since the advent of the internet.

I do agree that the immorality will be used to make us more efficient drones for tptb. However I think it will have to open the door to population control.
And how do you decide what the cutoff age is for immorality? Do we make someone who is already 65 immortal? What about repeat criminals? Are we going to allow them to repeat forever? There are a lot of aspects to be explored here in tetms of immortality.

The technology that would create said immortality will make the population explosion invalid...in electronic form, we only would require electricity to continue running life...if we are physical, then nanotech would be able to create chicken dinners out of mud, etc...you cannot say you have the tools to enable immortality through nanotech, but not use the same exact tech to create food or material sources...

Its a common mistake to see one technology and see it as a potential disaster if everything else remains the exact same...all technologys mature and rely on each other...and the resource wars will end well before any massive life extension anyhow.

Originally posted by psychederic
One last BIG information for you : when they will product quantum processor : this is the SINGULARITY.

A quantum processor : will boost every aspect of robotics , and ia

This is the plan ... do you read me , this is THE plan

I cannot predict exactly when they will produce it ... but they have prototypes, they have also new method to build it easily ... (my news is from 1 month ago )

so this can be done ... today

If you follow the technological progression and the "law" of accelerated return, it is predicted 2049 is the year where your standard PC has more brainpower than the entire worlds populations brain...its when our thinking is far inferior to a computer in every single regard (lets make sure to core program these computers properly, because it is without question our final destiny to have the computers run us versus us running the computer...this will happen, flat out, no stopping it, no wishing it away..its the ground that we will hit..we are simply freefalling towards it now with no parachute)

2019 is the theoretical date when a personal computer equals a human brain in capability and process per second....so, by 2020, your computer will be smarter than you in any way you can think of...just perhaps not as creative as you.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Sorry you are Wrong : you will learn that a biological corpse run with less energy :

a biological body will be better for a lot of thing.

And one more little thing : only a biological body will give enough sensor for a human mind.

... or you want to live in a computer : ok ... then read accelerando, from stross


[edit on 15-7-2010 by psychederic]

Originally posted by Buretto
The only way humans can be saved from this AGI is to stop using technology all together. This sounds crazy but I honestly believe it is the only way. I took a science fiction class my senior year of high school, where I read the novel Feed by M.T. Anderson. I highly recommend this book to everyone. After reading the book I came to the conclusion that a utopia must be void of all technology.

1) obviously you dont subscribe to this philosophy...considering the whole using a computer/internet thing

2) if that was true, then we would never have left the caves...we are toolmakers, not cows...we are most happy evolving ourselves purposefully through controlling our surroundings and making it work for us....it is simply our nature. Such a society would be torture for many...if not most. Nothing is stopping anyone from simply finding a cave in the middle of nowhere and hunt for their food...it is a choice to continue being here...no excuses as to why you cant simply walk away and find some unspoiled land to live as a animal...none whatsoever...and since most do not want to do that, then the statement of it being utopia is proven false.