Islam is the best DEMOCRACY (NOT Western Democracy)

Good thread oozyism. I agree Islam as a democracy (as you explain it) would solve a lot of the worlds problems.

That is why it is such a threat to the NWO, as there is no ursary. Islamic banks don't charge the people interest - BIG threat to TPTB.

I have read the tanach, new testament(one of the many versions) and the qur'an.

The problem with islam is it's come from the ME, and the rest of the world does'nt know too much about islam and therefore are scared of the unknown.

Jews also do not believe in ursary (charging interest) either, but that is between themselves. they allow ursary to be charged against gentiles(non jews).

Terrorists??: they go against islam the moment they kill an innocent, or attack when it is not a case of defending the lands belonging to islam. once they have done these acts they are going against the teaching of the qur'an (and therefore against god).

Many of the bad perceptions about islam come out of the islamic countries in the ME, but these are actually a result of 'pre-islamic' tribal customs and traditions (which again was warned against by the prophet muhammad, but still seem to persist). you only have to look at afghanistan at the moment. the reason it is an impossible place to stabalize is that they still hang onto the pre-islamic tribal traditions, with the government in contention with warlord/tribal leaders who manage their own remote areas (and sometimes never see govt officials).

democractically, it would be a good thing with local governance (islam does not have any sort of 'vatican'/pope heirachy). the senior Imam of an area would be the guide for the community.

But as i said above - the biggest threat is the threat to banking. if you dont charge interest to Joe Average, he might just have a good life too live. they dont want that. no control.

S&F.

Originally posted by Chance321

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Chance321

 

Restrictions exists both for men and women, don't isolate women.

Those are all in the Quran, those need their own threads, I'll make one soon, don't worry.

Please don't. I have no intrest. From what I've seen an read, I have no intrest in converting willingly or unwillingly.
www.islam-watch.org...

Why ask questions then when you are not interested in the answers?
And have already made up your mind by "educating" yourself from IDIOTIC websites the likes of the one in your quote from so called "ex-muslims".

There are no ex-muslims!

If someone was truly a muslim he would never become an "ex-muslim".

That is so illogical that it hurts.



Do you know what does it mean to be a true muslim? How can you even think that someone who really is a muslim, would ever get the STUPID idea to leave Islam?

It is as if you had all the Wealth and Money of this World, and then you decide to throw it all and go live in a remote part of Siberia, fighting to survive every day, without food, without shelter, until you die freezing.

Who in his right mind would do that?


So, if any of these MORONS of that website DID that, then they were NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MIND.
Which explains the drivel and lies on their website.

Originally posted by skajkingdom

Originally posted by Chance321

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Chance321

 

Restrictions exists both for men and women, don't isolate women.

Those are all in the Quran, those need their own threads, I'll make one soon, don't worry.

Please don't. I have no intrest. From what I've seen an read, I have no intrest in converting willingly or unwillingly.
www.islam-watch.org...

Why ask questions then when you are not interested in the answers?
And have already made up your mind by "educating" yourself from IDIOTIC websites the likes of the one in your quote from so called "ex-muslims".

There are no ex-muslims!

If someone was truly a muslim he would never become an "ex-muslim".

That is so illogical that it hurts.



Do you know what does it mean to be a true muslim? How can you even think that someone who really is a muslim, would ever get the STUPID idea to leave Islam?

It is as if you had all the Wealth and Money of this World, and then you decide to throw it all and go live in a remote part of Siberia, fighting to survive every day, without food, without shelter, until you die freezing.

Who in his right mind would do that?


So, if any of these MORONS of that website DID that, then they were NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MIND.
Which explains the drivel and lies on their website.

Okey, confused. Perhaps Not Intrested was the wrong choice of words. No way will I ever convert, but I am intrested in other views. Now, you just said "There are no ex-muslims" so that to me sounds like you don't have the choice to leave unlike this post www.abovetopsecret.com... unlike oozyism who claims you can. Whats the right answer?

[edit on 14-7-2010 by Chance321]

[edit on 14-7-2010 by Chance321]

Originally posted by Chance321


Because from what I've seem of islam they seem to treat women as if they are below men. And you didn't touch on the question on, are they free to speak their minds and go where they wish without being escorted. Also, I'm just curious, what's your definition of dress modestly for a woman? Is it the head to toe robes you see so many muslim women wear or what?

Totally off topic Chance.

"Because from what I've seem of islam" ??? Don't seem, read, research.
Try reading "The complete Idiot's guide to Islam". I read it as I wanted to find out about what Islam was on about.
The first time I ever bothered to give Islam a thought was because of the first gulf war. I wanted to find out why the news was always on about 'islamic terrorist this/islamic terrorist that'. what as this islam that motivated these people to such lengths.
I'd never bothered with religions my whole life, so because of the war, i started with the NT, The Torah, the Tanach, and the qur'an.
Islam, when the qur'an is truely followed is a peaceful religion. Even the 1st book mentioned above (pdf's are on the net), will explain that most of the crap you hear on TV, are attributable to the pre-islamic tribal customs and traditions from the Arabic nomads/bedouins.

If you actually read the qur'an (there is only one version - but get a good english translation (best: by Muhammad Asad - jewish convert who helped form the state of pakistan`- 2nd Best: byYusuf Ali) woman are highly regarded and if anything are placed above men.
It has a whole chapter devoted to Jesus's mother Mary. states jesus is the messiah and he will return to defeat the anti-christ (wish he'd have a go at ignorance at the same time).

Current democracies (being off topic - like others): equal pay for women. abortion - the right to choose(country variations)? nothing is perfect, but it at least should be Just and Fair.

Originally posted by Chance321
Now, you just said "There are no ex-muslims" so that to me sounds like you don't have the choice to leave unlike this post www.abovetopsecret.com... unlike oozyism who claims you can. Whats the right answer?

[edit on 14-7-2010 by Chance321]

[edit on 14-7-2010 by Chance321]

Well, read what I wrote.

I said, if someone was TRULY a muslim, it would simply be stupid of him to leave islam, AS IN: when you have all the good, why leave it?

It wouldn't make sense.

So, if these guys who call themself "ex-muslims" left Islam, then, according to logic, they were NEVER IN ISLAM in th first place.

They might have been born in a "muslim" family, but they themself weren't truly muslim.

Originally posted by oozyism
Islam is the BEST DEMOCRACY, here is why:

I've lived in Saudi Arabia so i know what Islamic rule is like. You forgot a few rules.

Women can't show their face in public
Women can't vote
Women can't drive a car
Women can't sit in the front seat of a car
Women can't eat in the front of public restaurants
Women can't attend schools that men attend

Yeah, these are really good ideas.

reply to post by oozyism


What do you mean "you choose to become a Muslim" So if you are born a Muslim and decide it's not for you, you may choose another religion? I'll answer that for you. You can't! Under THAT democracy you will be killed. If a woman decides she wants to marry a christian, can she? I'll answer that one too. No, underTHAT democracy she will be killed. Does the democracy of Islam allow for critical debate about the religion? Let me answer that one also as you may be busy. NO! Critical debate is NOT allowed and you will be imprisoned. Democracy? Not even close.

Originally posted by skajkingdom
Well, read what I wrote.

I said, if someone was TRULY a muslim, it would simply be stupid of him to leave islam, AS IN: when you have all the good, why leave it?

It wouldn't make sense.

So, if these guys who call themself "ex-muslims" left Islam, then, according to logic, they were NEVER IN ISLAM in th first place.

They might have been born in a "muslim" family, but they themself weren't truly muslim.

*Yawn*. The whole "they are not TRUE Muslims" routine. This excuse is made by people of all religions when nut-job Extremists put into action their own skewed interpretation of the Holy Book they follow.

Essentially, you are saying that only those who fully submit to Islam are true Muslims. That works rather nicely to excuse the actions of the Extremists that commit violence in the name of religion! In that case, the Crusades were not done by true Christians. Please don't call the soldiers Christian because you are misunderstanding what a true Christian is!

[edit on 14/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by skajkingdom
Well, read what I wrote.

I said, if someone was TRULY a muslim, it would simply be stupid of him to leave islam, AS IN: when you have all the good, why leave it?

It wouldn't make sense.

So, if these guys who call themself "ex-muslims" left Islam, then, according to logic, they were NEVER IN ISLAM in th first place.

They might have been born in a "muslim" family, but they themself weren't truly muslim.

*Yawn*. The whole "they are not TRUE Muslims" routine. This excuse is made by people of all religions when nut-job Extremists put into action their own skewed interpretation of the Holy Book they follow.

Essentially, you are saying that only those who fully submit to Islam are true Muslims. If that is the case, then 100% of Christian Extremists that use religion to cause violence are not true Christians. The Crusades not done by Christians. Can you see where this is heading?

[edit on 14/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Yes, and I would never say that the crusaders were true christians.
Do you KNOW what "christian" means?
It means a FOLLOWER of Christ.

Did Christ take a sword and started fighting innocent people, stealing their gold, raping and killing children?

No.

So, crusaders were not true christians.

I stand by that and by my premise.


EDUIT TO ADD: Oh great, I see another pro-Islam Thread (second today) gets moved to lesser frequented Forums.

Great Job mods, keep on it.

So, according to you ISLAM = MIDDLE EAST?

I AM FROM ALBANIA. That is EUROPE FYI.



[edit on 7/14/2010 by skajkingdom]

Wow, I am simply amazed at the ignorance of some here....

Islam and Democracy go hand in hand? Peas and Carrots?
I challenge you to provide us one good example where a democratic state, that shares power with Islam, or where there is a theocratic Islamic establishment, show me a country like this that doesn't infringe on the rights of the individual.

In all examples of a strong Islamic presence, especially in modern day Islamic nations that incorporate some sort of democracy, you will see the influence of Sharia law, forcing women to conform to certain dress codes, forcing children to attend certain schools, removing the ability to vote from women in society...the examples go on and on.

Countries who give us perfect examples of this kind of oppression are nations like Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt...the one nation not on this list anymore is Iraq, and that because the "evil" United States changed all that as of 2003 giving women the right to vote once again, children the right to go to the school of their parents choosing once again, and allowing women to dress the way they wanted to and not based upon some uniform code that is imposed upon them by the Quran.

People like you are clearly Muslim, and that's your right and God bless you for it. But don't come here and post such ridicules drivel and tell us it's the fact. It's your opinion, and clearly since you didn't list down any stats or studies to support your opinion you aren't presenting a logical argument at all...

It's just your opinion, oh by the way...you can do that here in America because we are a free democracy and I hate to burst your bubble on this one...it was a democracy that has its roots in Judeo-Christian beliefs...don't get mad at that statement, it's simply fact.

We know this based on the writings of our nation's founding fathers such as John Adams, George Washington, and even old Thomas Jefferson.
Don't believe me? I challenge you again to put up some fact to prove me wrong.

I believe in an intelligent argument, based not only on passion but on factual information...something you have failed to provide in your posting.

reply to post by oozyism


For one who holds the Qur'an and Islam as being important, I find it odd that you would use the name of Jesus (Yeshua) in such a way. Most Muslims at least recognize him as a prophet, second only to Mohammad, and give him proper reverence even in their denial of him being the Savior.

Islam taxes and/or executes those who become apostates. Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me. This coming from a religion that demands for you to submit? Definitely not a democracy. The people have no choice and are bound by their constitution, not set free by it.

I have no issue with those living peaceful lives and following the Qur'an. I strongly disagree with them but otherwise have no issue. It is those who spread the misinformation about it claiming it to be things it is not that bother me. Yes, the religion was founded in violence, yes it teaches violence, and no, it would not make for a democracy.

This of course should not go without saying that I think our form of democracy here in the West is corrupt and failing us. The people are not nearly as free as the government wants them to think they are. Moral of the story, NO government style will work for the good of the people if those in power are not honest, good-hearted men and women. As long as the power hungry and corrupt rule, it does not matter what type of government you have. If "Good" people were in charge, it wouldn't matter what style of leadership there was in my opinion. The problem is most of us disagree with what is good. I believe there are absolutes that do not change and are based out of the Word of God.

How many Islamic nations are there that are failing epically at representing any form of democracy? This isn't meant as a bash against Islam, just the claim that it is a form of democracy.

[edit on 14-7-2010 by Mykahel]

Originally posted by Mykahel
reply to post by oozyism

 

least recognize him as a prophet, second only to Mohammad, and give him proper reverence even in their denial of him being the Messiah.

We dont deny he is the Messiah. he is even called Messih in the Qur'an.

reply to post by dbates


I spent some time there to. Under THAT democracy the Mutawalh run around making sure the Muslims attend mosque 5 times a day. Now I am in Jordan- much saner.

Originally posted by skajkingdom
Yes, and I would never say that the crusaders were true christians.
Do you KNOW what "christian" means?
It means a FOLLOWER of Christ.

It seems like you are just playing semantics here, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it comes down to how you define religion. Do you consider somebody born in Morocco who grows up in a Muslim home to be a Muslim? As in, he goes to an Islamic school, attends a Mosque, but does not take part in any other religious-related activities?

What if the child grows up and decides he wants to live in England because he loves Football. When he gets there, he decides that studying the Quran and attending a Mosque is inconvenient and he would rather spend time playing football with friends he makes there. 10 years later, the boy returns to Morocco and stays with his family.

Was this person a Muslim? Is he still a Muslim?

Did Christ take a sword and started fighting innocent people, stealing their gold, raping and killing children?

No.

So, crusaders were not true christians.

I stand by that and by my premise.

Do you believe in Religious Extremism?

It would appear that you do NOT because in your eyes anybody that performs an act that is radical is not an adherent of that religion. Have you thought about the perspective of the person committing the violence? If it were not for their religious beliefs, they would not be (what they feel) is DEFENDING their religion.

[edit on 14/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by oozyism
Islam is the BEST DEMOCRACY, here is why:

Western Democracy works on majority, while Islamic DEMOCRACY works on individual level.

Let's make it simple and break it down:

- Islam is the nation.

- A Muslim is the citizen of Islam.

- The constitution of Islam is the Quran.


Those three points make a perfect Democracy, because you choose whether you want to become a Muslim or not, no need for voting, no need for majority, while the minority watches and wait until it becomes the Majority etc.

Once you become a Muslim you accept the Quran as your constitution, and govern yourself, and those who want to be under Islam, through Quran, which makes a perfect DEMOCRACY.

CASE CLOSED!!

Questions and Comments invited.

PEACE!!

Ah yes the religion of war, i hate islam for your crimes agaisnt the people in bosnia, i will never accept islam.


After for what Islam has done in bosnia, your a sad type.


So mr oozyism maybe you then can please explain what has islam brought to bosnia? as you know bosnia has the biggest unemployment rate, there are no jobs and there is no future under islam rule.





[edit on 14-7-2010 by Agent_USA_Supporter]

reply to post by skajkingdom


Noticed my error in using the term "Messiah" and changed it to Savior. I suppose it might have been more appropriate to use the term "Son of God" as I know that is completely rejected. I was making the edit as you made your post.

I must say that I have appreciated some of your posts in this thread. While we stand at odds most times, I am glad to see some logic used in this thread compared to some of the stuff I've been reading...

Any so-called "Democracy" that has a Wikipedia page filled with no less than 50 links to people either decrying violence against apostates, justifying said violence, subjugates women or uses passages in the Quaran to legalize those views is bad comedy.

en.wikipedia.org...

You can keep your perfect Democratic system, I'll stick with my flawed version... at least in mine people aren't arguing over whether or not I should be executed if fail to retain religious faith.

Originally posted by skajkingdom

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by skajkingdom
Well, read what I wrote.

I said, if someone was TRULY a muslim, it would simply be stupid of him to leave islam, AS IN: when you have all the good, why leave it?

It wouldn't make sense.

So, if these guys who call themself "ex-muslims" left Islam, then, according to logic, they were NEVER IN ISLAM in th first place.

They might have been born in a "muslim" family, but they themself weren't truly muslim.

*Yawn*. The whole "they are not TRUE Muslims" routine. This excuse is made by people of all religions when nut-job Extremists put into action their own skewed interpretation of the Holy Book they follow.

Essentially, you are saying that only those who fully submit to Islam are true Muslims. If that is the case, then 100% of Christian Extremists that use religion to cause violence are not true Christians. The Crusades not done by Christians. Can you see where this is heading?

[edit on 14/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Yes, and I would never say that the crusaders were true christians.
Do you KNOW what "christian" means?
It means a FOLLOWER of Christ.

Did Christ take a sword and started fighting innocent people, stealing their gold, raping and killing children?

No.

So, crusaders were not true christians.

I stand by that and by my premise.


EDUIT TO ADD: Oh great, I see another pro-Islam Thread (second today) gets moved to lesser frequented Forums.

Great Job mods, keep on it.

So, according to you ISLAM = MIDDLE EAST?

I AM FROM ALBANIA. That is EUROPE FYI.

[edit on 7/14/2010 by skajkingdom]

No offence albanian but dont post anymore on ATS ok? your country crimes agaisnt the people of serbia and bosnia are very well known to me,

Its no surpise you dont knew that there are ex-muslim and now your running away from your own comment.

www.exmuslim.com...


another thing albanian how do you exlpain these acts done by your people?
www.youtube.com...

you dont see a christian destroying mosques like that do you?


[edit on 14-7-2010 by Agent_USA_Supporter]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Being muslim means submitting your will to God.

God says if you kill one innocent person it is as if ypu killed all of mankind.

Suppose now you kill a person, against Gods command.
So, you are not submitting your will to God.

Now, if "submitting your will to God" = muslim

then

NOT "submitting your will to God" = ?