The Filesharing Conspiracy

Well... movies and television shows cost money to produce - lots of it. Millions of dollars. Software is created on a big budget, also. Many of today's programs have millions of lines of code - one person would take a lifetime to do all that. Songs can be made by anyone with instruments, but require a phenomenal degree of talent and teamwork by the band members which deserves to be rewarded.

If all of this stuff was free, how would the people who create it get by? Should they go on welfare or something?

Hi,
it's of course a dillema... I once knew a great guy who went to the public library and stole/saved a book which hasn't been taken out of that libraqry not a single time before. It was gijom apoliner's compilation as far as I remember.
I used Pirate Bay before and only downloaded either rare esoteric books or one-hit garage rock bands songs from sixties. Who's lost what? Does Roky Erickson have a problem? Or Timothy Leary?

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by Bspiracy

 

the scenarios mentioned by illusion987 are very real, and are true. i would like to hear your rebuttle to his proposed situations, instead of a copout.

So what:. he says I never would have bought it anyway so I should get it for free?

I pay for what I want because I EARN it with hard time and labor.

Just because you never would have consumed something because you don't want to put the extra effort into buying it does not give you the license to enjoy the fruits of others hard labor. PERIOD.

So go and tell yourself that your morals are just fine because you want to twist words to suit yourself. If that's how you sleep then sleep well.

Edited to add that I own my own graphic design / sign business and I put in 70+, 80+ and sometimes 100+ hrs a week to be able to EVENTUALLY afford the lifestyle I want.

do you do the same or do you say "I never would have been able to do ______ so I'll go ahead and steal it"

Speaking of "making a mockery" don't dare use that term when you are mocking the people who work and toil. It's the same thing as the Mexican illegals.. Because the government has allocated the funds for so much insurance, lets just give it to the illegals right? even after I WORKED for mine?

get a backbone and work for what you want.

b

[edit on 27-6-2010 by Bspiracy]

Lol. If authors didn't have to worry about starving or having a place to sleep; then they would write books simply for the pleasure of weaving stories together.

Embracing the arts for monetary gain is pretty fail.

Get us off this corporate slavery and give us a world of abundance.

-----

Once we're not occupied with STAYING ALIVE/AFLOAT/OUT-OF-DEBT, we can focus on more interesting things. Like devoting our lives to art, or science, or literature, or music.


Start going after the people that keep you guys enslaved, instead of worrying about cashing in on those that are enslaved just like you.

Originally posted by TylerKing
As usual your post said absolutely nothing, not a surprise. I'm not telling you who I am, or what exactly I do, I'm not whining, but I see others who have a cause for concern.

Go torrent Idiocracy, you might learn something, hell you're probably in it.

Actually, you have 2 accurate points you have made all day.
1) Your Avatar is a clear representation of your self and your personality.
2) You are not posting about what you do.

Since I have read your other posts, and I have already commented on the plight of the photographer these days, I will comment on the plight of the over priced graphic designer who is quickly being replaced by 20 cent a day India talent.

On second thought It really is pointless debating with you. Your so set in your ways, you probably think the internet should be banned to save the libraries.

..Ex

Originally posted by TylerKing
Maybe you'd better actually read my posts. I'm not a musician, I work in the art field, there is a difference. Writers don't have concerts, artists like me don't sell things at a bar, so don't act like an expert. Now go do some reading and quit promoting your crummy music. My work goes to stores AND on the net, but the net for me and people like myself is a dead end because of thieves and those who defend them like you. As I said before this isn't affecting me, it does to people I know and maybe me in the future if digital becomes standard over paper, and books and libraries become a memory. Everything I've ever done has been torrented I'm just lucky enough to be able to get around it, and I promote as much as I can. I work every day, all day, so lazy isn't a way I'd describe myself.

*sigh* if you throw enough insults around at people, maybe then your arguments will be valid. i never insulted you as a person, i never insulted your work, and i didnt call you personally lazy. you have not heard the music i write, so you really have no ground to call my music "crummy." im sorry people dont buy your work, but i know a comic book creator who does pretty much the same thing i do (minus the music part) and he can pay his bills. free, downloadable format online, accepts donations, but also screen-prints his own packaging and posters and things to sell via mailorder (and, yes, AT BARS). sometimes he sets up shop at local venues with the permission of the owners so he can sell to people there. its all about using your creativity for more than just creating the art itself.
by "lazy" i mean in the pursuit of art as a profession, not someone who sits on their ass all day. if you keep writing things, and people keep torrenting it, and you keep blaming the people (who are probably enjoying it, btw) downloading it, maybe you should figure out another way. apparently its not working. you should really stop complaining about the system and find a way to operate outside of it.
then again, people just might not like your work, and are glad they didnt pay for it, which makes me defend pirating even more.

Originally posted by SentientBeyondDesign

Once we're not occupied with STAYING ALIVE/AFLOAT/OUT-OF-DEBT, we can focus on more interesting things. Like devoting our lives to art, or science, or literature, or music.


Start going after the people that keep you guys enslaved, instead of worrying about cashing in on those that are enslaved just like you.

well said.
i completely agree with you 100%

I was at first encouraged, until I read through some of the responses.

I can only assume some responding have never created anything nor earned the things they have. They have been totally infused with the Welfare mentality that the world owes them something, even though they give nothing in return.

It is quite simple really. A person who is motivated and contributes to society has money to buy what they wish.

Not true of young people just starting, but then should a young person expect to have everything handed to them? Is that even good for them? Is that good for society?

Should a person who sacrifices, learns a skill, develops it to its limits over years of practice an hard work, have the same life as a person who is lazy, contributes nothing of worth and demands that the world owes them?

It's become multi-generational as bad parents, yes I said bad parents, pass it on to their children.

The welfare mentality, which is what this is, is not only destructive to the individual, it is destructive to a society. Our entire globes economy may yet collapse and why? Do the banks have all the blame? Or, do those who wanted something they had not earned, borrowed the fruits of others work and then did not pay it back as agreed hold some blame? Those who signed those mortgages were not the innocent little lambs people paint them to be. Not really. They knew they could not afford those homes when they signed.

The banks lied to themselves when they made the loan, the borrowers lied to themselves when they promised to pay it back. Why? The same welfare mentality, the same the world owes me mentality that is at the heart of those who steal without guilt.

I'm still in a related business. I interact routinely with some of the most well know musicians of their times. Many are just getting by on what few royalties they still get. They devoted decades to mastering their skills, took a huge risk making entertainment a career and survived the hard times between the bouts of poverty mixed with the times of plenty.

Those who get pleasure from their work owe them for their sacrifice. The idea that somebody would enjoy something enough to steal it, but would out of the other side of their face say they don't deserve to be paid, sicken me in fact.

I don't think some of you even realize how much goes into these things you so flippantly steal. You must have never created anything yourselves. Never learned a skill or used it to benefit others. Because if you would steal these things and then demand to be payed for your own work, it makes you doubly disgusting.

reply to post by v3_exceed


I just clicked the "thread" button under your name and all of your responses lead to the same thing. You still take what you want without asking for it first.

Granted there could be a new business model setup in some way to accommodate a certain percentage of say a ovie like Iron Man 2 to download. Maybe half. If you want the rest, go buy it. There's no doubt that the digital age is forcing people to think differently about where they spend their money.

As a designer/photographer, everyone has a 12mp camera and I've incorporated that into my business model. Creativity is still a talent and just like now and forever, you have to sell a product of yourself. I've adapted and will change but that still doesn't lead me to STEAL programs becasue I wouldn't have been able to afford them anyway. I do download demos and if a program is good enough I save up for it.

I have several friends who are musicians and it drives them crazy when they find their music online because they spent a year making an album and the money coming into them keeps getting less and less.. So they were sold out as a show. Go back to the band, pay them for a CD and have them send it to you. I've seen that done and it works just fine.

There are so many situations that you can concoct or come across that magically allows you to take something you didn't earn for free. What it boils down to is this:
Do YOU have the moral fortitude to say NO to piracy?

there's nothing you have mentioned that is essential to ones life yet taking it for free directly or indirectly DOES have an affect on someone else's life.

b

reply to post by Blaine91555


I've created many things, not because I wanted to be rewarded for them, but because I felt like creating them.

It is the ideology of the CAPITALIST that tells us that we should CAPITALIZE on anything that yields opportunity. THAT is one of the essential poisons of our society. What ever happened to writing a song because you felt like making something?

What is it with so many people believing that a world where we have all the essentials is a world where no one has initiative.


-----
The ONLY jobs that wouldn't yield initiative are those that no one cares to do anyway. Jobs that can be automated.

Stop with this trivial, "i made something so gimme something for it" bull****.

You guys rant and rave about how the system has failed you, then turn around and **** each other with the same system TPTB have used to **** you.
-----

Seriously. We create because we feel like creating. We don't require monetary compensation in order to create, and that notion is corrosive. Why should I wait to get PAID to create ... When I can just ... um, you know ... Do what I love to do and make tons of stuff ... because ... you know, I enjoy it.


You've been tainted with this "i gots ta get paid" mentality. And this is why you and the rest of the hooligans that subscribe to this school of thought have FAILED and will continue to FAIL.

Maybe people pirate films because we dont want to pay £17 for a single dvd.

Its the disrtibuters fault, if they were not so greedy, then maybe more people would buy them.

same with books and cd's.

too many overpriced books these days. i shouldnt have to pay £100 for like 6 books.

also i dont think that being in a band is a career choice. you put a few chords together and wail like a dying dog into a microphone any idiot can do that, don't bitch when people dont give a crap. and dont buy it.

[edit on 27-6-2010 by MR BOB]

Well thought out post! But here is my opinion, "artist" (meaning many things) may not be getting as much money for their "artwork" but they are still getting it heard/seen/read. I see the "downloading" as a way to create better "artist". If people go into the "arts" knowing that they won't become rich you will have more people doing it because they love, hens "better art". Not people doing it just to make money.

Also people in bands still make money, most band's don't make money from CD sales nor have they ever. (N*sync, TLC, Aerosmith, Hendrix) Are all people who were broke at the peak of their career. Band's make money from "ticket" sales and "merchandise".

With all the "downloading" I believe America's entertainment industry is falling down hill. But I think that is a good thing and people will be going into "the arts" not for fame for wealth but because they LOVE it.

Just my thoughts!

Originally posted by SentientBeyondDesign
reply to post by Blaine91555

 

I've created many things, not because I wanted to be rewarded for them, but because I felt like creating them.

As do I.. the difference is that if I want to give it away for free then I say so and offer it freely.
If I don't say it's free then pay me for it because I need to eat.

Pretty damn simple.

b

reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign


How do you feed your children? How do you acquire a decent place to raise them. If you work for free, how do you survive? If you say barter, barter and the use of money are the exact same thing. Money simply represents barter.

Now you could go back to living off the land in caves, tents or shacks. No responsibilities. Imagine 6.75 billion people living off the land. No computers. No cars. No infrastructure. Unless of course you can get everyone to build all those things for nothing in return.

Inside a fantasy is no way to live. Some get away with it by living off of others. Money is simply a means of exchanging work in a sensible way. All the other nonsense about it is nonsense. Usually spouted by those who contribute the least.

Yes those who go the extra mile, work and study harder, work more hours and apply themselves live a better life. They do so with pride. They don't have to invent fantasy worlds or make excuses.

I spoke to a friend about his downloading of music and asked him why he did it, he replied, "MTV'S CRIBS"

wow, come to think of it, it makes sense...

For the love of god guys,..

Why the hate against downloading movies/music/software? It was bound to happen. It's an industry that has been crushed by the internet.

As will other industries crush if it were to lose sales if it's products became available for free.

creating music, writing a book, shooting a movie, creating software, for the sake of making lots of money, for most have become a failed investment. That's life! Sometimes you win sometimes you lose,.. If you really have talent, and are able to solidify this, and be able to market/advertise it successfully, you will make money, a whole lot of it. Avatar anyone?

Originally posted by Bspiracy
reply to post by v3_exceed

 

I just clicked the "thread" button under your name and all of your responses lead to the same thing. You still take what you want without asking for it first.

Well you have absolutely missed the point I was trying to make. You see what you want, and assume the rest. I have commented on MANY threads like this one. In each thread, my point is the same. Society is changing, and business that is meant to survive will adapt. I know mine has had to.

As you mentioned you know musicians, perhaps you are familiar with the story of Frank Zappa. He worked for years to entice the labels to market his stuff. Only very few albums were ever released. Now after his death, the vultures come out in droves to get a piece of him. His wife, would not deal with the record companies after his death and chose to release the last album privately.

With the advent of the internet, we have a new business model, a new way to facilitate the distribution of media, of talent and creativity. But what do we hear from the music artist? Not "My fan base can now be global", just someone downloaded my mp3. That is sickening. When those people choose to make a career out of being a recording artist most know they will not make it. So people just hearing their work is the bump. The fact that each artist can now sell their own music, distribute it without the high overhead that is associated with vanity press of old is a definite benefit to them.

For the record, I am Canadian. So I pay a tax on all recordable media to offset any losses by the music industry. I pay this tax on hard drives that I don't use for music, I pay this tax on cd's that I don't use for music. So who is stealing from whom?

In my own business, I need to be better than my competitors, provide a stronger service and provide all of the upgrades to my clients for free. Now I could sit here and whine about my situation or I can do the very best job I can for my clients and beat my competitors on merit.

So at what point do I take what I want without asking? By the way, your avatar is a clear representation of a copy written comic character that is NOT in the public domain, and appears to be used without consent by the copyright holder. So come on now...who's stealing from whom.

..Ex

Originally posted by mooseinhisglory

Originally posted by TylerKing
Maybe you'd better actually read my posts. I'm not a musician, I work in the art field, there is a difference. Writers don't have concerts, artists like me don't sell things at a bar, so don't act like an expert. Now go do some reading and quit promoting your crummy music. My work goes to stores AND on the net, but the net for me and people like myself is a dead end because of thieves and those who defend them like you. As I said before this isn't affecting me, it does to people I know and maybe me in the future if digital becomes standard over paper, and books and libraries become a memory. Everything I've ever done has been torrented I'm just lucky enough to be able to get around it, and I promote as much as I can. I work every day, all day, so lazy isn't a way I'd describe myself.

*sigh* if you throw enough insults around at people, maybe then your arguments will be valid. i never insulted you as a person, i never insulted your work, and i didnt call you personally lazy. you have not heard the music i write, so you really have no ground to call my music "crummy." im sorry people dont buy your work, but i know a comic book creator who does pretty much the same thing i do (minus the music part) and he can pay his bills. free, downloadable format online, accepts donations, but also screen-prints his own packaging and posters and things to sell via mailorder (and, yes, AT BARS). sometimes he sets up shop at local venues with the permission of the owners so he can sell to people there. its all about using your creativity for more than just creating the art itself.
by "lazy" i mean in the pursuit of art as a profession, not someone who sits on their ass all day. if you keep writing things, and people keep torrenting it, and you keep blaming the people (who are probably enjoying it, btw) downloading it, maybe you should figure out another way. apparently its not working. you should really stop complaining about the system and find a way to operate outside of it.
then again, people just might not like your work, and are glad they didnt pay for it, which makes me defend pirating even more.

Ugh, people DO buy my work, I'm talking about the future and the people I know who have to struggle, it's as Blaine just stated a problem I have with the mentality that it's okay to steal, not that it's killing me personally. That's what makes me angry about it, if I want it to be free it will be, but it shouldn't be up to some teenager living with his parents to make that decision. If people felt so strongly about society needing to change then change the society, become leaders and do something, don't steal from those at your same level in the grand scheme of things. You aren't hurting those big bad corporations, you're hurting the creative people who just want a normal life.

Sorry for calling your music crummy, I got you mixed up with another poster and lumped you two together. And I probably know this friend of yours.

reply to post by Bspiracy


Precisely my mother****ing point, you're trapped in the ideology of the system that ****ed you. Good game.

The monetary system is an effin' joke, and you're still gettin' used by it. Perpetuate it further, we'll see an end to this ****ed up world REAL soon, right? Right. Lol.

Originally posted by v3_exceed

Originally posted by rival

Here's how I want you to look at file sharing, if you believe that it's okay
to share files that you have purchased.

Imagine going to a show by a local band who is selling CD's during
their show. The price for their CD is five dollars. But, after the show an
~entrepreneur~ is in the parking lot selling duplicate CD's for two dollars.
His argument--I bought and paid for it. It's mine--I can sell it, copy it,
give it away for free, or sell copies if I want to---IT'S MINE.

How about an accurate analogy? Imagine you have gone to a concert. After the live show the band is selling cd's for 5$ each. There is a limited supply of the physical media, and a long line up (inconvenience to acquire, or maybe you couldn't get tickets at all) So you brave the line up and by the time you get to the front, their sold out.

Out in the parking lot, there is a machine that lets you plug into it with your usb drive and obtain a dubious copy for FREE..true you might also get a virus, might be a really crappy copy, you don't know but it's free.

Nobody is making HUGE $$ off of piracy in your analogy one person is benefiting financially, but on the internet each person can choose to buy or try or go to their local HMV and get a copy..if its in stock.

If your going to present a slanted side of things, try and present it accurately.

..Ex

Okay, an accurate analogy.

You go to the show (same scenario) and in the parking lot, there is a machine giving free access/download to the product the band is selling.
The band receives no compensation from the free downloads of their
property.

If this is okay with you, then here is another scenario. Open your front
door, people are on their way to take what they want from your
dwelling/property.