MV Rachel Corrie being boarded NOW

Originally posted by letscit

Yes in theory this might actually be true, too bad we dont live in theory or Rachel Corrie would still be alive as her ghandi style tactics would have worked. Obviously when dealing with israel you are not jusr dealing with a said democracy but a democracy run by the military complex. Just look into their political history, the military complex controls every aspect of their society. And logic, theory and reasoning doesnt get you very far with the military complex.

[edit on 06/02/2010 by letscit]

You're telling me that not a single person died in the Civil Rights movement? Or in the movement for India's independence? Its not called the moral high ground because its easy to get to. Both MLK and Gandi were peaceful and respectful. This idiot Rachel Corrie was a militant. I've seen some pictures and videos of her that looked more like a communist rally than a peace march. You don't win by chanting "death to Israel," and then throwing rocks at them. That is decisively violent, not non-violent.

You win by making the other side out to be the bad guy by offering NO resistance. None. Not one thrown punch. The idiots on the IHH ship that resisted made themselves out to be the bad guys because they set on the IDF with metal poles, knives, and chairs. It would have been better for them to not have resisted at all. Then if Israel had opened fire, Israel would have been universally condemned by everyone. Just as Britain and the US were during the Civil Rights movement and the movement for India's independence.

There is no other way to win. Violence just begets more violence, and the circle will keep going forever. The only way for the Palestinians to win is to be non-violent. But again, I ask. Do their leadership really want peace?

Originally posted by CSquared288
reply to post by DomhainGràdh

 

hahahahah what? YOU shall put it down to naivete? and thats not a shot at at your character anything, just your statement about how you hope karma catches up with him. DO you not think that you have a better chance of getting nailed simply because you wished him ill will?

Did you read my post?

I Said ''I hope the karma police DON'T catch up with you''

That was a little attempt at irony, yet you let your emotions blind you to the true context in which I responded.

Yes naivety indeed.

Originally posted by BillRose

Originally posted by CSquared288
reply to post by DomhainGràdh

 

hahahahah what? YOU shall put it down to naivete? and thats not a shot at at your character anything, just your statement about how you hope karma catches up with him. DO you not think that you have a better chance of getting nailed simply because you wished him ill will?

Kind of Ironic isn't it?

Would it be Irrational you mean?

2nd line

So now not content with attacking a ship on the high seas and murdering at least nine of its passengers - in cold blood - because that is what shooting a lad 5 times point blank is - we have the illegal kidnap of a foreign vessel - towed into Israel clearly against the wishes of both crew and passengers.
That is indisputible kidnap and piracy.
The blockade is illegal.
All done against international law and the demands of the UN and international community sans the most violent, decadent and belligerant rogue state on the planet - the US bloody A. (Bloody as in blood)
These military terrorists and their masters must be brought to international justice.
I trust that every Israeli soldier is aware that under the Nuremburg law they cannot claim the excuse of being commanded.
The Israelis are now beyond being even regarded as human.

Just fight back in every way you can.
Remember 729 means it is an Israel product.
Do NOT buy - boycott.
Remember the rhyme.
729 and you have to decline.
Do not shop at shops that send profits back to Israel, do not use businesses ditto.
If you live in Britain do NOT shop at Tesco or M&S.
Tesco in particular is Israeli owned and the profits mostly go back.
Shop at Morrisons or Waitrose, British owned.
Check your fruit and veg or flowers in particular and if Israeli hand them back with suitable comments about the shop selling the produce of states who use state sanctioned murder, torture, imprisonment, kidnapping etc etc.
Lets throw our own blockade around this savage, barbaric and brutal state.
See how they like being starved in their pocket book.

Originally posted by BallsMahoney
I wonder why they aren't webcasting video from the ship like last time. I guess we won't get to watch Israeli commandos execute innocent people in real time and will have to settle for the spin and propaganda of what happened later on.

Once again the nonsense starts. If this floatilla doesn't attack the IDF they will be fine.. The first so called peaceful floatilla attacked the IDF, they were in no way innocent.

reply to post by deccal


it's interesting how one word is used to dehumanize an entire block of people. The "terrorists". Quake in your boots children, the "terrorists" are here.

People have a black-and-white view of the world. That which does not agree with their POV is simply wrong. In truth, what is right and wrong is dependent on one's point of view and the circumstances they find themselves in. One can say "murder is wrong" yet still rationalize some reason to commit the act.

The Israeli's and their supporters rationalize their actions by labeling their opposition terrorists. In turn the "terrorists" rationalize their actions by citing the deeds of the state of Israel. And therein lies the problem. Both sides view their opponent as throughly evil without stopping to think "Does s/he have a point?". "Terrorist" is a word used to shut down thinking. It's an easy path around thought. Who really thinks of themselves as evil? Though I risk breaking Godwin's law here, Do you think Hitler saw himself as evil?

The FBI defines terrorism as:

The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

By definition, both sides fit the term rather well. Israel commits unlawful action by continuing it's expansion of settlements and blockading Gaza. The Palestinians commit unlawful actions by firing rockets and attacking the Israelis. I have to ask what either side expects here. Do the Israeli's just expect the Palestinians to lay down and die while they take everything they have? Do the Palestinians just expect every Jew to pack up and leave?

But, what do I know? I'm just one human being. I try to look at things rationally, but I feel like I'm one of a few very lonely people on this planet. This whole situation is just insanity. People making land claims based on DNA, people making land claims based on scriptures from thousands of years ago, crazy people condoning murder based on strange religious arguments (and some kind of sick death wish), people blowing themselves up to kill others. Honestly, humanity is getting no where. Maybe we should just blow ourselves to hell. It would be easier than pretending we can actually solve these problems.

this sounds as if she is standing in nazi germany in 1939-1940. can you not see the complete comparisons?

reply to post by letscit



A little bit off topic, but here she is when she was in 5th grade

www.youtube.com...

Some people born and die as angel.


Ps: How to embed video by the way?

[edit on 5-6-2010 by deccal]

The only way for the Palestinians to win is to be non-violent. But again, I ask. Do their leadership really want peace?

reply to post by comradespartan


Seems to me this has to be a two-way street. One side has to be peaceful but the other not? Wtf kinda logic is that? How is it that you deal with genocide? Dont see where in history genocide was ended with anything but overpowering force and making the aggressors of the genocide reside under strict law and rule carried out by the world. Besides Germany, didnt this same thing need to be carried out in Bosnia to end the genocide there?

reply to post by BillRose

You make a ton of sense and you use facts to back up your assertions.

The problem here is that you can not reason with people who are intellectually lazy and closed minded. By my own admission I am by no means a smart or learned man.

What I do to make up for this is try to think through using logic and facts to come to my own conclusion as to what happened. I try not to let my emotions clowd any of my thought processes. That way I can come to a rational conclusion of my own. Even then, I am still able to change my mind when new facts emerge.

As far as this topic is concerned, there has been NO CREDIBLE evidence to make me change my mind that Isreal AND Egypt acted legally in enforcing this blockade. Period.

Not that I have to tell you but... It is far easier to hate. The emotion is raw and can be addicting. It is the ignorant man's mental high. As witnessed on these threads.

I thank you for your kind words and respect your thought process.

In a world where it is almost impossible to get the real truth of the matter, standing back and applying reason, logic and having the objectivity to question your own beliefs on a regular basis is the only way in my opinion.

Star and Friend

The only question I have not made my mind up about, through all of this tripe, is whether or not the same people so incensed by the actions of Israel hold the same animosity for every state in existence that came to be through what can be described as heinous actions? America was forged on the slaughter of thousands upon thousand of Native Americans; why are you not rallying against the death of Native American culture? Surely they are a living, albeit fading testament to the power of greed and vampiric lust for expansion that so many people attribute to modern day Israel.

My conclusion must be that there is something about Israel in particular that Anti-Israeli ATS'ers froth at the mouth over. So, what could it be? I have seen several people pointing out how "Erdogan is making epic statements", etc. They are praising a man who will not admit that his own country perpetrated a genocide against Christians little more than SIXTY YEARS ago. But they're Christians, right? So bah, it's ok. Where are the rallying cries for gays all around the world that are macheted in the street by mobs of rabid cavemen? What about the Muslims that are being ethnically cleansed in Burma?Is that ok, because the Burmese are Buddhists?

There is something learned in the hatred of Israel. Beyond the fact that I find the bulldozing of homes a repulsive tactic, the majority of people posting on this website cannot be as naive as to think that the people of Israel can pick up and just disperse, can they? What is your solution? Let's break it down differently.

You are a thirty year old proud citizen of the country Kermasia. Decades ago, your grandfather's father fought for the establishment of Kermasia, right or wrong, because there were deep ties to the worship of Kermit the Frog in this land, and the dispersement and persecution of the Kermasians throughout history produced a longing for a homeland. These were the wishes of your ancestors, however. You are indifferent for the most part, but your family and business are in Itsnoteasybeinggreenalem, so you feel a responsibility to protect the things that you hold dear. Within the borders of Kermasia is a country of radically different faith, being home to the Gonzonims, followers of the Great Purple one. While the Kermasians have historically been noted as the aggressor in this intertwined and on-going battle, the Gonzonims have publicly used murder, terrorist bombings, and gross forms of torture and executions in response to what is perceived as an irrelevant state in Kermasia. Foreign aid has been pouring in to Gonzonine for multiple years for the funding of terrorism. The Gonzonims pour rocket fire on to suburban homesteads in Kermasia sporadically.

Now, suddenly, a flotilla from Misspiggystan, a militant, at least in spirit, supporter of Gonzonine, is approaching a blockade that the Kermasians have instituted for fear that arms will be smuggled in to Gonzonine. The Pighanis are asked to port; they refuse. They are boarded rather forcefully by Kermasian commandos, and several occupants of the flotilla are shot dead after initiating a violent attack against the coming-aboard Kermasians.

Now what would you suggest the Israeli family and businessman do in this situation? Support the blockade that might stop a rocket from crashing down in their daughters bedroom, or pack up their house and leave the region? It honestly boggles my mind how personally the posters of ATS can take a situation while only knowing, or probably more appropriately only caring to know, one side of the problem. Most of you taking the time out of your days to post biting anti-Israeli posts here do in fact, in some magnitude, despise Jews. Most of the people supporting the Israeli side in this situation are, in some capacity, anti-Muslim.

In closing, unless you're going to get off your duff and stand in front of an IDF bulldozer or don a yarmulka and fight for the Israeli state, lets try out some civility.

reply to post by letscit


She has no emotion and no focusing, looking away when talking, and a lot of ums.

I really doubt her claims are all true. She would not be as she appeared.

reply to post by letscit


India. Gandhi. 1940s.

[edit on 5-6-2010 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by letscit

The only way for the Palestinians to win is to be non-violent. But again, I ask. Do their leadership really want peace?

reply to post by comradespartan

 

Seems to me this has to be a two-way street. One side has to be peaceful but the other not? Wtf kinda logic is that? How is it that you deal with genocide? Dont see where in history genocide was ended with anything but overpowering force and making the aggressors of the genocide reside under strict law and rule carried out by the world. Besides Germany, didnt this same thing need to be carried out in Bosnia to end the genocide there?

It is sound logic; If someone truely wants peace, they will be peaceful and not antagonise.

If Palestinians wanted to put the 'final nail in the coffin' for the international condemnation of Israel, all they would have to do is do nothing.

However, they choose not to.

They choose to launch missiles indiscriminately into Israel.

They choose to brainwash their children into anti-Israel, anti-Western hatred.

They choose to bring pride upon their families by becoming Shahid(Martyrs).

They chose the terrorist/militant/freedom fighters to govern them.

These are not things that they were 'forced' into to doing by the Israelis.

Rachel Corrie could have murdered the IDF Bulldozer driver with explosives attatched to her body when she originally climbed up to talk to him.

She chose 'peaceful defiance' to try and prove a point.

I do not condone what she did as an act of 'bravery' as this is dangerous encouragement to future acts of 'peaceful defiance', suicide bombing and martyrdom in general.

But if you do and belive she is a hero for it, then why do the Palestinians choose 'violent defiance' instead?

[edit on 5-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by hungrydirt


My personal attitude is that xenophobes, no matter what breed or reason they give for thier actions and attitudes, are a disease in of themselves and need to have thier cleansing methods turned on themselves.
You see, I listened when my grandfathers spoke of war, and they did me the great service of teaching me not to hate germans, but to militate against every form of xenophobia, be it white supremacy, be it jihadism against generalised masses of people, be it the actions of catholics against protestants or vice versa. In my opinion anyone who would consider utterly removing ,or drasticaly reducing one demographic by violent removal, is a danger to society and should be THEMSELVES destroyed to prevent thier hate from affecting anyone else.
The problem I have with Israel , is that of all the nations on the earth they ought to know how wrong thier actions are in a much more intimate way. You see Israel is largely populated by Jews, and as we all know (aside from the white supremacists *click-clack...boom* ) the Jews had it damned rough during world war two. They were victimised and killed in thier hundreds of thousands, and basicaly messed up in every conceivable way by a regime which was based on hate and murder. My grandfathers sacrificed thier sanity, and watched thier fellow men sacrifice thier LIVES to END that tyrany .
My main problem with Israel is that rather than appreciate the efforts made to free the Jews of the second world war , by aiming to avoid any such behaviour amongst thier own people, the Israelis seem to have taken every oppertunity in the last little while to assert thier right to kill anyone they like, build on other peoples land, and generaly make life a living hell for an entire ethnic group. One would expect better from a victim of that kind of behaviour. Thier current behaviour seems insulting when one considers the efforts made to free thier forefathers from impending doom.
Of course I have a problem with thier opposite numbers also , but thier attitude is not as galling, because my relatives didnt get thier psyches destroyed by carnage, freeing them from ethnic cleansing.

Just in two new convoys to go to gaza after ramadam one by sea and one by land

reply to post by BillRose


There is great irony in accusing those who disagree with you of 'hate' and 'mental laziness' when you are essentially dismissing opposing arguments with a wave of the hand. I happen to disagree with you but I've supported my perspective with concrete facts. I strongly oppose Israeli policy but I am not 'anti-Israel'. Frankly I find it rude and condescending that so many members feel comfortable dismissing my carefully thought out perspective by accusing everyone critical of Israeli policy of unmitigated hatred. Further, doing so harms the overall dialog. There are reasoned people on both sides of the debate and it's short-sighted to think that short-changing the ones who happen to disagree with you here is going to result in more clarity of discussion.

Has Israel said what will happen to the captured ships? Will they be given back to their respective owners or will the ships be permanently confiscated by the Israelis? I haven't found anything that states the fate of the vessels.

reply to post by hungrydirt


I can't speak for anyone else here, but I know that I wasn't alive sixty years ago and I darned sure wasn't alive when the US was expanding westward killing the native populations.

But neither of those things are what this topic is about. How about we stick to that, okay?

Gosh I get so freaking upset with some people sometimes. You know that what you are typing is foolish, so why do it? Are you paid to be here?


Trying to derail the topic... projecting. Slippery slope... etc.



[edit on 5-6-2010 by JayinAR]

reply to post by hungrydirt


A truely excellent post hungrydirt, I have found myself taking more and more bias towards Israel on this forum due to the overwhelming ignorance of the Israeli haters and your post serves to remind me of my original more objective posture.

Enlightened and appreciated.