Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by ElijahWan
I'm not sure about them claiming to have that streaming video, that's the first I've seen that...

You're not sure? I just linked you to the Free Gaza website, where they say they had streaming video of the incident? And you're still not sure?

And you haven't you read this thread? We've had member after member claim to have seen this streaming video. And you're still not sure?

Or are you trying to rationalize it away?

Originally posted by ElijahWan

1) I'd appreciate if you wouldn't attack me when you think I said something wrong...I simply stated I didn't know much about it...So they claimed they have video and haven't presented it yet? Is this supposed to be yer argument for condoning the act or something? ALL I WAS SAYING WAS THIS WAS THE FIRST I'VE HEARD OF IT....thus I'M NOT SURE....(jesus, people these days...just looking to pick a fight)

But I know for a fact AlJaazera and them had their feeds cut not too-too long into the assault.

But they managed to get out the reports about the incident, they were able to get video to the shore of injured civilians, of Israelis commandos being beaten and stabbed, yet they couldn't get out what they need to support their case.

2) Again...The feeds were cut short and all subsequent videos/pictures have been taken by the IDF....

Originally posted by ElijahWan
If yer willing to defend the IDF surely you'll defend them confiscating all these "phones, memory cards, cameras ect?" Why would they do this? Lets think logically here man...

I'm not defending the IDF. I'm questioning the claims of Free Gaza and pointing out holes.

Originally posted by ElijahWan
TO SPIN DOCTOR IT UP without video proof to suggest otherwise...The ONLY videos that have come out that AREN'T IDF of the incident are those that were streaming AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK...

So, where is this video?

3) Explained in #2

Originally posted by ElijahWan
the IDF doesn't want you to see anything BUT what it wants you to believe...

The same can be said of Free Gaza. They claim to have streamed the video, members on ATS claim to have seen it, as have people around the world. Yet none of them have been able to produce this video. What are they trying to hide?

4) The same CANNOT be said...You think Free Gaza wants you to see them beating the IDF soldiers with pipes? No...they wouldn't...BUT AlJaazera definitely kept the cameras rolling all the while....Alot better then the 45 sec "proof" that the IDF provides....

Originally posted by ElijahWan
Their "video clips" are clear distortions of the truth and really a horrible attempt at Propaganda IMO...

How do you know? You have eyewitness claims with no other support evidence, eyewitness claims that have been shown to be inaccurate. Yet you brazenly declare what video evidence there is to be a distortion of the truth. How in the hell do you know?

I know because MULTIPLE eye-witness reports have said that IDF fired on the ship first......I know because those people don't just grab pipes/poles for no reason...They are defending themselves from an assaulting raid of "pirates/IDF"

I've still yet to see how the eyewitness claims have been SHOWN to be inaccurate...As I stated...We have no idea WHICH ship they are on....WHAT each eye-witness specifically saw.....WHERE they are located on the ship....

It'd be a lot easier if I could just give you video evidence but I don't have much to go on since the IDF confiscated all that eh? Look I'm not going to sit here and argue EVERY point with you....I've said everything I'm going to say....

If you think IDF was in the right to attack this ship the way they did.....confiscate all evidence.....then claim they were defending themselves....by all means man....that's yer opinion and yer entitled to it...I have a differing one however....


EDIT: My first few responses are in the Quotes up there.

[edit on 6/2/10 by ElijahWan]

Originally posted by DangerDeath

Originally posted by ElijahWan
reply to post by CanadianDream420

 

That's odd...no mention of the cement they were carrying with them? Israel must have removed it as usual then...To think...the poor gazan people can't even rebuild their homes that were destroyed in Operation Cast Lead...

To rebuild their homes destroyed recently by Hamas bulldozers...

www.israelsituation.com...


[edit on 2-6-2010 by DangerDeath]

[edit on 2-6-2010 by DangerDeath]

thread here..www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 2-6-2010 by gambon]

Originally posted by ElijahWan
I've still yet to see how the eyewitness claims have been SHOWN to be inaccurate...As I stated...We have no idea WHICH ship they are on....WHAT each eye-witness specifically saw.....WHERE they are located on the ship...

Really? You don't know of any eye-witness account that has been shown to be inaccurate?

Haneen Zoubi, a Knesset member aboard the Mavi Marmara gave an account of the incident...

Terrified passengers had been forced off the deck when water was sprayed at them. She said she was not aware of any provocation or resistance by the passengers, who were all unarmed...

“There was not a single passenger who raised a baton,” Zuabi claimed. “From where I stood, in any case I did not see any such thing. There was shooting, but I don’t know if it was with live bullets or not. There was shooting from the boats in our direction. The message was clear for us – that we should understand that our lives were in danger. We passed along messages that we did not want confrontation. What we saw was five bodies. There were only civilians and there were no weapons. I had the feeling that I might not get off the boat alive.”

Source

Which is interesting, because we know from the video shot by passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara that they indeed did resist and that they had weapons.

And you can keep harping all you want the IDF confiscating the evidence, but that still does not explain where the streaming video that Free Gaza, several ATS members, and people around the world claimed to have watched. Where is it?

It is very telling that not a single person has produced it and that eye-witness accounts have shown to be inaccurate or full of lies over and over again.


[edit on 2-6-2010 by DoomsdayRex]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

A nation doesn't have to make a formal declaration of war to make a blockade.

A good example is the US. The US hasn't declared a war since WW2 but we have had a number of blockades since then. The most famous being Cuba.

The US doesn't Blockade Cuba, anyone who wants to trade with or visit Cuba can do so, except maybe US citizens or companies, try getting your facts right it's a trade embargo.

The Metamorphosis of the Event

1 Humanitarian aid flotilla

2 Massacre

3 Political (Hamas-Israeli notorious obstinacy)

4 Near East Mythology Dumpyard

Originally posted by Thepreye

Originally posted by gambon
"protoplasmic "
Who will you attempt to slander and vilify next, Mother Teresa?

Do you know mother theresa charity demanded children convert to catholicism before they would give them aid ...our religion or starve.....harsh BUT TRUE

OMG LOL, first you compare the no doubt noble skellon with Mother Teresa who you suggest Proto will vilify then you go and do that very thing yourself.

Dude?????? Low or what.

No i didnt compare skellon with mother theresa ...FAIL... read again....

It is a remark from protoplasmic I am replying to ....

Originally posted by gambon
[
most airsofters use real kit mate ..you would still be arrested, and then have to explain WHY? you have it

And why would you need to wear that to a demo?

As for air weapons I have a sKan..niceley tuned.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by gambon]

Sorry I associated airsoft with children my lads 9 and 12 and their mates have a variety of airsoft guns, expensive bits of rubbish but they love them.

I know a few lawyers I'm not ashamed to call friend, lol, if I went on a demo I thought I'd need that kit for I'd be in their immediate vicinity at all times and they'd be similarly equipped knowing them, I have no fear of arrest or incarceration.

Really? You don't know of any eye-witness account that has been shown to be inaccurate? Haneen Zoubi, a Knesset member aboard the Mavi Marmara gave an account of the incident...

Terrified passengers had been forced off the deck when water was sprayed at them. She said she was not aware of any provocation or resistance by the passengers, who were all unarmed...

Again...Perhaps she was in the back of the boat? As I stated earlier...We don't know where anyone is...it's VERY possible she didn't see any of the fighting since it was on the front of the ship...it IS a pretty big ship...Lots of a Levels and lots of Decks...You think EVERYONE on the boat saw the confrontation? PLEASE....


Which is interesting, because we know from the video shot by passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara that they indeed did resist and that they had weapons.

And you can keep harping all you want the IDF confiscating the evidence, but that still does not explain where the streaming video that Free Gaza, several ATS members, and people around the world claimed to have watched. Where is it?

WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME? I haven't claimed to have seen this video, nor have I said anything of it's existence....YOU HAVE..... That's like me asking you to prove it doesn't exist....Neither of us has the proof to do so....

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Do you realize there is a deeper darker far more sinister agenda at play here, one that is entirely predictable, because it is entirely planned?

There is an expression that many have not heard before, it is called "Tyranny of the Majority." This can affect any aspect of government and usually results when cliques develop with an ulterior motive to protect only themselves and heaven help anyone on the outside who interferes.

Let me see...They run a known blockade without identifying their cargo. Then when the Israelis react and come on board they take out clubs and start throwing guys overboard. The Israelis react take control of the ship, and realize it was filled with medical supplies and food. Israelis say that ther is great need in Gaza, so start giving the medicine etc to the folks in need. Hamas (true to vengeful Islamic thinking) will not accept any of the humanitarian cargo, until all is released and all people are released. Meanwhile people are suffering. OK? I think I understand it is Islamic thinking process at it's very best. I will kill people I claim you want to kill so you will look like a killer. I will once again et vengeance by killing my own people who I supposedly am fighting for so they can get help. I will spite my self, kill my own, just so I can call you a killer and are keeping people who clubbed guys captive for awhile?? Sounds like Muslim logic...

Originally posted by gambon

Originally posted by Shark_Feeder
reply to post by gambon

 

Those "defensive weapons" were kitchen knives(used for cooking), pipes(used in repairs), wrenches and tools(repairs again) I have yet to see evidence for anything else.

But why where these in the hands of the passengers 5ft metal bars , (which didnt exist according to eyewitnesses ) ( but show on film from both sides) can hardly be classed as hand luggage....?

Or was it just the crew fighting / defending the ship?

SO again why did the passengers have weapons even before the first troop landed?

This event has certainly knocked bp from the front pages ...now theres a conspiracy.....

[edit on 2-6-2010 by gambon]

The resisters are breaking no laws by offering violent resistance, you know this I know this, stop trying to muddy the waters with your meme pushing.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by Thepreye]

Originally posted by Americanist

Originally posted by Shark_Feeder
reply to post by gambon

 

Those "defensive weapons" were kitchen knives(used for cooking), pipes(used in repairs), wrenches and tools(repairs again) I have yet to see evidence for anything else.

Not to burst your bubble, but they had an assortment of things including slingshots, pretty brutal looking knives, what could pass as ax handles, and quite a few metal poles... Not to mention gas masks and what not.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by Americanist]

First genuine laugh out loud of the thread, gf appreciated it too when I called her in to look, I've seen the vids on MSM pathetic meaningless propaganda.

At least some Rambo justice

Crew 'seizes back' ship from Somali pirates

The crew of a Libyan-owned merchant ship seized by Somali pirates in the Gulf of Aden have reportedly recaptured the vessel.

Some pirates are believed to have been killed during the incident, said the European anti-piracy naval force operating off the coast of Somalia.

news.bbc.co.uk...

They should be all arrested and condemned for resisting peaceful taking over of their ship and cargo!


There is the world's biggest fleet ever protecting ships from pirates, doing nothing, sailors alone deal with pirates, while in Mediterranean Israeli pirates unpunished liquidate unarmed passengers.



[edit on 2-6-2010 by DangerDeath]

Originally posted by ElijahWan
Again...Perhaps she was in the back of the boat? As I stated earlier...We don't know where anyone is...it's VERY possible she didn't see any of the fighting since it was on the front of the ship...it IS a pretty big ship...Lots of a Levels and lots of Decks...You think EVERYONE on the boat saw the confrontation? PLEASE...

You are trying to have it both ways. If a witness says that they saw/heard Israeli soldiers shooting before they boarded, then it can be taken as gospel. But if there are any inaccuracies in their account, you find all sorts of special pleading rationalization and excuses.


Which is interesting, because we know from the video shot by passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara that they indeed did resist and that they had weapons.

Originally posted by ElijahWan
WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME? I haven't claimed to have seen this video, nor have I said anything of it's existence....YOU HAVE..... That's like me asking you to prove it doesn't exist....Neither of us has the proof to do so....

Because you said all video evidence is in the hands of the IDF, as a rationalization to dismiss video evidence in favor of unsupported eye-witness testimony. And I have shown you it is not. You further claimed that the same standards of evidence do not apply to Free Gaza; they could just as easily produce video to support their claims, yet they do not.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by black cat

 

I don't think so. Humantarian aide workers and charitable people don't take up knives, metal rods and chairs and beat a commando unit senseless.

It doesn't matter who is breaking into your home in the middle of the night or for what purpose, what matters is they broken into your home in the middle of the night.


The people on board those ships were responding in self defense to an act of piracy in international waters, conducted by a rogue nation operating outside the scope of international law.

On your first paragraph - If I didn't know who was coming then yes, I would defend myself and my family. But we're talking about an incident that occurred in daylight, from the ocean. Out on the ocean it's not like you have the walls of a house obstructing your view of who is invading. Out on the ocean you can see when another vessel is approaching. Those "aide" workers knew who was coming and they defied orders to stop.

On your second paragraph, if pirates were attacking then sure, they should defend themselves. But since when do pirates use non-lethal weapons first, wear commando gear and drop in from helicopters? Don't you think that's a pretty big indicator that these are military or police units? I do, so your "if they were pirates" excuse doesn't make sense to me.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by black cat]

[edit on 2-6-2010 by black cat]

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Sounds like Muslim logic...

Could you elaborate more?

reply to post by D.E.M.

Why would an "aid flotilla" turn down offers of inspection and ground transport from both Egypt and Israel?

Why would Cyprus refuse to let the flotilla dock? Do they know something not being reported here?

reply to post by DangerDeath



uk.encarta.msn.com...

massacre [ mássəkər ]


noun (plural massacres)
Definition:

1. killing of many people: the vicious killing of large numbers of people or animals

It seems you are caught up in one sides' alarmist media spin.

9 confirmed deaths does not constitute a 'massacre' unless there is evidence of the killings being vicious in nature.

We have no idea if they were 'vicious' either.

The only vicious act that is seen on the footage provided, is the beating of the troops.





[edit on 2-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


Your logic makes me laugh dude....Regardless...I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one....Well not just me and you....You and the world at large too

reply to post by Skellon


I have already stated that this "footage" is irrelevant and now it is obvious why.

I forgot to add stage 5 of morphing process:

5 Suffering, famine, lack of medical protection, death from WMD, et cetera et cetera et cetera for the inhabitants of Gaza, hostages of Hamas, Egypt and Israel and all those cruel forces standing behind the mentioned.

And you can keep justifying your masters day and night, it won't change anything, but will add to your own weakness.