Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

Originally posted by DangerDeath

Originally posted by Curio

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Skellon

 

That is all about politics and disgustingly so, people have lost their lives trying to deliver charity, and lost them to soldiers of a nation operating outside of international law.

It works both ways. The flotilla was just as much about making a political statement as it was delivering aid. Note, I'm not defending Israel, I'm just saying that it's naive to suggest the the flotilla was a totally innocent humanitarian effort and nothing else.

flotilla was a totally innocent

innocent - guilty = slave conditioning

I want to hear you say that Israeli commandos were GUILTY before you say activists were not innocent.

Believe it or not, I think that Israel WAS at fault! Believe it or not, I'm not blindly pro-Israel. I have SOME sympathy for the Israeli position in many matters, which obviously is not allowed Essentially I understand why Israel acts as it does even if I don't agree with it all the time. I'd rather look into WHY Israel behaves as it does, and what can be done about it (realistically) rather than jump on my moral high-horse all the time.

I stand by what I said though - the flotilla wasn't just about innocently delivering aid. They knew what they were doing, knew what was coming, and were determined to make a stand - why else would they have weapons immediately to hand? Now that's fine - all power to them. But lets call it what it was - a political blockade-runner under the guise of an aid shipment.

Originally posted by jackflap

In this video, taken aboard the ship, there are passengers who are killed before the troops come aboard...

This video has been posted before and does not show what you claim. Everything on this video was shot after the attempted boarding by the Israelis. It has been edited to leave out pertinent facts (the Press.TV reporter describing the Israeli descent onto the deck) and footage inserted to make it look like the raid happens later. I provided a video proving this in an earlier post.

reply to post by Curio

I stand by what I said though - the flotilla wasn't just about innocently delivering aid. They knew what they were doing, knew what was coming, and were determined to make a stand - why else would they have weapons immediately to hand? Now that's fine - all power to them. But lets call it what it was - a political blockade-runner under the guise of an aid shipment.

I clearly wanted just to make a point.

It was a political act, they were aware of the danger. However, it doesn't mean they are guilty of anything. Political act is not a criminal act. They are not subject to classification of a kind "guilty-innocent" simply because they were not on a trial.

On the other side, Israel committed a criminal act of murder, execution, kidnapping, humiliation, along with a political act of refusing to recognize international law.

reply to post by Curio

I stand by what I said though - the flotilla wasn't just about innocently delivering aid. They knew what they were doing, knew what was coming, and were determined to make a stand - why else would they have weapons immediately to hand? Now that's fine - all power to them. But lets call it what it was - a political blockade-runner under the guise of an aid shipment.

They had makeshift weapons at hand, and the truth is if you broke into my house and were armed I would immediately look for a makeshift weapon too.

The CIA and Special Forces publish books on how to turn almost any item into a makeshift weapon.

The truth is that if they really were prepared their weapons would not have been makeshift.

If they were really beligerents they would have opened fire on the Israeli vessels before the Israelis attempted to board.

If they were trying to 'run' a blockade they would have not advertised they were coming.

In fact months and months of aide had piled up and the advertising was in hopes that Israel would let it through.

Which if it had, and not been enforcing an illegal blockade none of this would have happened.

The blockade is illegal and causing needless suffering and disease.

It needs to be lifted for both reasons.

If anything we should be rejoicing that people of such concious and bravery still exist in this police state world we have created.

Slandering them to justify their murders by agents of a police state, an apartheid police state, a apartheid police state operating in violation of international law to starve people into submission to them?

Yes that's pure politics there.


[edit on 2/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by Skellon
Here, at 2:34, is the 'unedited' footage of this repeated stabbing.

It is undeniable the IDF commando is being stabbed. How will the Freedom Flotilla propagandists deny or rationalize this?

It is interesting the timeline of their spin and lies. At first they denied there was any resistance. Then they denied there were any weapons, when it is undeniable there were weapons aboard. Now they are trying to justify the violence. What lies and spin are next?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


He does no mislabbelling from what i can see , ewarlier in the thread it was said that the guy is a haid worker....if so why does he appaer to be holding a handgun , some thing i asked people to look at and see what they thought themselves...skellon did , and he saw a gun ,,,i did not say waht i saw , at the time so as not to influence anybody..but it was a handgun.......

SO direct question to protoplasmic, what does it look like to you..and why would they be carrying a handgun


Skellon seems to be taking a lot of undeserved flack simply for asking folk to look at the evedence not just heresay and unconfirmed accounts etc , he is not pro israili or pro palestine I am sure , but come on how # would this thread be if everybody came on said "israel did it" and all agree on believing what is after all the msm....why believe it now when there are dozems of threads on why msm shouldnt be trusted..

So here you go I do not see a pro israeli stance in skellons threads , i see someone asking for people to stick to what we can proove so far , asking folk to stop speculation and stick tpo proovable fact etc

So far in over 120 PAGES of asking not one video of the idf firing at the ships before the landing happened , even though thousand claim to have seen it live....Funny how I was watching live also ..and do not remember seeing the firing start before the landing

So if your going to start saying that skellon is wrong to question then put me in his camp....

Any one would think that only one side can have an agenda just the israilis , dont the palestinians and the turkish religious government have one to ?

SO come on first i want to see the film of the idf firing from the boats and helis?

Then i wqnt an answer off ptotoplasmic as to does that look like a handgun ? and why a handgun on a peace mission..?

And we shall go from there ..lets start with the beginning and put together evidence of what we do know

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
If they were trying to 'run' a blockade they would have not advertised they were coming.

Yes that's pure politics there.

Yes, that is pure politics, isn't it. First you tell us they are not trying to run a blockade (when they is their exact stated goal) then you still us there is a blockade. Your inconsistency is very telling.

i find it hillarious that this topic is still alive ...
it only proves that israel lovers are so full of the selfs that they just cannot stop .

it was shown that ships were attacked on international waters (which means its an act of war - acording to international law)

knives? sticks? bars? - hey i would have those if i had 600 people on my ship.
would i use them? YES i would defend my self.

REMEBER one thing ... israel was at the ships 60miles from gaza zone when israelis ordered them to stop they changed cours just to avoid israeli waters (which arent thiers) at night. yeh they attacked them.

ya all should think alittle

and do not trash my english (its not my first language)

Seriously, I never bothered to watch those videos.

Why do you insist on that when it is never going to be accepted as evidence in the court, and there is never going to be a trial on this, except on the Judgment Day...

Your propaganda is worthless. You are just trying to create a simulacrum of democratic discussion about a "subject" by discrediting the whole event as if it never happened and never deserved people's attention.

One of these days I expect you start posting pictures of your LEGO constructions

Makeshift bureaucrats, who know nothing about strategy, tactics and warring, giving a good fight

"protoplasmic "
Who will you attempt to slander and vilify next, Mother Teresa?



Do you know mother theresa charity demanded children convert to catholicism before they would give them aid ...our religion or starve.....harsh BUT TRUE

Originally posted by DangerDeath
reply to post by Curio

 

I stand by what I said though - the flotilla wasn't just about innocently delivering aid. They knew what they were doing, knew what was coming, and were determined to make a stand - why else would they have weapons immediately to hand? Now that's fine - all power to them. But lets call it what it was - a political blockade-runner under the guise of an aid shipment.

I clearly wanted just to make a point.

It was a political act, they were aware of the danger. However, it doesn't mean they are guilty of anything. Political act is not a criminal act. They are not subject to classification of a kind "guilty-innocent" simply because they were not on a trial.

On the other side, Israel committed a criminal act of murder, execution, kidnapping, humiliation, along with a political act of refusing to recognize international law.

murder [ múrdər ]


noun (plural murders)
Definition:

1. crime of killing somebody: the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defence or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law

execution [ éksi kysh'n ] (plural executions)


noun
Definition:

1. killing: the killing of somebody as part of a judicial or extrajudicial process

2. performing of something: the carrying out of an action, instruction, command, or movement
a plan that failed in execution

3. manner of performance: the style or manner in which something is carried out or accomplished

I guess in hindsight you are refering to point number 3 when stating 'execution'?




[edit on 2-6-2010 by Skellon]

Originally posted by gambon
Skellon seems to be taking a lot of undeserved flack simply for asking folk to look at the evedence not just heresay and unconfirmed accounts etc , he is not pro israili or pro palestine I am sure , but come on how # would this thread be if everybody came on said "israel did it" and all agree on believing what is after all the msm....why believe it now when there are dozems of threads on why msm shouldnt be trusted..

It's cognitive dissonance. The MSM is to be trusted, as long as what they are saying what the subject wants to hear, as long as what they are saying is in line with the subject's beliefs. If they aren't, well, then MSM obviously cannot be trusted.

Originally posted by gambon
So far in over 120 PAGES of asking not one video of the idf firing at the ships before the landing happened , even though thousand claim to have seen it live....Funny how I was watching live also ..and do not remember seeing the firing start before the landing

That is quite interesting isn't it? All those people claim to have seen this take place, yet not one person can produce the video.

It's because, one way or another, we have members outright lying.

I talked to some friends. They automatically support Israel (most of them).

Slave conditioning is such. They never try to be critical, never bother to check out what is served to them through the main kool-aid pipe - the MSM.

They are all (subconsciously) aware this might turn against them...

This is truly a nightmare world.

Originally posted by DangerDeath
Seriously, I never bothered to watch those videos.

Your propaganda is worthless. You are just trying to create a simulacrum of democratic discussion about a "subject" by discrediting the whole event as if it never happened and never deserved people's attention.

That's very interesting. You won't watch videos of the event, immediately labeling them as propaganda. Very telling.

Originally posted by DangerDeath
I talked to some friends. They automatically support Israel (most of them).

Slave conditioning is such. They never try to be critical, never bother to check out what is served to them through the main kool-aid pipe - the MSM.

They are all (subconsciously) aware this might turn against them...

This is truly a nightmare world.

This from the person who says they have not watched the video evidence, immediately dismissing it as propaganda. Hypocrite comes to mind. You are just as bad as the friends you bash.

Gaza flotilla activists were unarmed: Canadian

A Canadian citizen alleging he was detained and beaten during Monday's raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla says Israeli commandos attacked unarmed civilians.

Audeh, who says he was aboard one the ships, told CBC News that Israeli troops beat him when they boarded the ship and bound his hands.

"They beat me actually, the Israeli soldiers beat me on the ship," said Audeh, who has been released and sent Jordan.

"We were detained for an extensive period of time and were not allowed to go to the washrooms or anything like that, or sleep," Audeh said. "It's been a rough 24 to 48 hours, let's put it that way."

www.cbc.ca...


Interesting. Of course he will be called a liar and probably an anti-Semite

[edit on 2-6-2010 by InvisibleAlbatross]

Originally posted by filosophia
According to the IDF videos, not a single weapon was a gun, but instead fireworks, slingshots, tools, and poles. If they were such terrorists as the neocons suggest, they would of had at least one gun. The real issue now is I think how should the American people respond to the Presidents cowardliness regarding this situation.

chuck gun over side ...job done....

reply to post by gambon

He does no mislabbelling from what i can see , ewarlier in the thread it was said that the guy is a haid worker....if so why does he appaer to be holding a handgun , some thing i asked people to look at and see what they thought themselves...skellon did , and he saw a gun ,,,i did not say waht i saw , at the time so as not to influence anybody..but it was a handgun.......

SO direct question to protoplasmic, what does it look like to you..and why would they be carrying a handgun

Wow I have heard a lot of those "Looks Like" arguments on ATS!

Looks like a drawing of a 10,000 year old space craft!

Looks like a drawing of a 5,000 year old stargate!

Looks like a drawing of a 6,000 year old laser gun!

Looks like a drawing of a 5,000 year old reptilian space alien!

Looks like is what they do in ink blot tests.

I will tell you this though, hardly anyone in Miami Florida where I live, that has a pleasure craft goes out onto the open sea without a handgun for protection, because of pirates.

People are raped, murdered and kidnapped out at sea all the time, and most sensible boat owners have a gun on board for SELF DEFENSE from pirates.

Hey wait what is Israel being accused again of doing in International Waters in violation of International Law?

PIRATING!

I don't care what uniform or flag you wrap a PIRATE in, they are still PIRATING and the only defense against PIRATES is SELF DEFENSE no matter who or what you are.

All this would change if the Flotilla boats tried to board or attack the Israeli vessels.

They didn't, the Israelis boarded and attacked the flotilla vessels.

Here is a news flash for you, I do not recognize the authority of another nation operating in International Waters outside the scope and pervue of International Law.

Your heroes are in fact my and other people's zeros.

Captains law and maritime law gives captain of any vessel great discretion to be it's own law on the high seas. That's why all captains can legally marry people.

Boats on the high seas are sovereign entities.

How people conduct themselves aboard their own territory, is not subject to the skewered standards you wish to apply to them.

By the way I have sailed the seven seas, on small boats, and know full well the culture and laws.

Your agruments are as disengenous as they are transparent, as they are agenda driven, and I am sorry that being a disinformation agent in this day is not as easy as it once was.

What can I say times are tough all over!!


[edit on 2/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by InvisibleAlbatross

Gaza flotilla activists were unarmed: Canadian

Interesting. Of course he will be called a liar and probably an anti-Semite

I have no problem saying it. We already know from the video evidence that there were weapons on board (as shown in the stabbing of an Israeli soldier). So he is either mistaken or lying.