Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

reply to post by Skellon


As many trained soldiers have pointed out quite well on other sites.

If the Israel Gove didnt want a confrontation then they would have raided these boats in DAYLIGHT. Raiding untrained civiliens in darkness can only lead to what we have seen, panic by those onboard to unscene threats, explossions and gunfire.

Israel could have waited till dawn. The boats had no intention of getting closer till then anyway.

If you can explain why they attacked in darkness it would help me understand your point..

Originally posted by mr-lizard
reply to post by Skellon

 

So explain to me how these non-lethal weapons managed to kill 10+ people please.

I'm eager to learn as always

Oh come on mate, please do not insult myself or yourself with such a question. It has already been stated that they were carrying 'live round' backup hand guns.

When they were given permission to use lethal force if their lives depended on it, they drew their handguns and eliminated their attempted killers.

reply to post by Skellon


Yeah and I'm sure Israel will release the autopsys showing the bullets they removed were from handguns, or maybe some paintballs and beanbags.....

No those rubber bullets they use have a steel core. Still can kill you in close range. Yesterday they released some people. One of them talked about the Israelis started shooting 5min before entering the ship. If thats true then that explains why they attack them while boarding the ship

Originally posted by Skellon



Oh come on mate, please do not insult myself or yourself with such a question. It has already been stated that they were carrying 'live round' backup hand guns.

When they were given permission to use lethal force if their lives depended on it, they drew their handguns and eliminated their attempted killers.

You forgot the word ILLEGALLY in your sentence.

Good job i'm here eh?

As you can find over the last few pages, there's more and more evidence showing that this was an illegal raid.

Those crew had every right to defend themselves, much in the same way you would if you were on that boat.

Not just were the Israeli's inept and unprofessional, they punished the people who were victims of the IDF's terrible approach to this so called 'siege'.

But still, you've taken it upon yourself to defend the murderers who shouldn't have even been on the boat in the first place. I'm wondering why?

It sure isn't a moralistic stance you are taking and their does seem to be a lack of humanity in your stance on this issue. May i ask why?



[edit on 2-6-2010 by mr-lizard]

reply to post by Skellon


Oh come on mate!!

There was SO MANY ways Israel could have handled this better.
Especially considering the approach of these ships was not exactly unexpected..
Israel in fact had WEEKS to plan how to react....

I'm no military genius but heres a few examples..

1) THey could have used their bigger navy ships to force them away.

2) They could have dissabled the ships.

3) They could have used sound weapons or water cannons.

Fact is, Israel did EXACTLY what it wanted to do..
Raided unarmed ships in International water with the sole intent of causing casualties. End of story.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Those crew had every right to defend themselves, much in the same way you would if you were on that boat.

Correct.

They had every right to use every weapon at their disposal.

The belligerent Israeli state has gone too far this time. They will be punished for the Act of War they committed against the NATO nations.





[edit on 2-6-2010 by Exuberant1]

Originally posted by rhunter
Skellon, I was reading over your very many posts on this Israel thread, and I was wondering if you could answer some questions for me (that are very closely related to your last post BTW).

3. What do you know about this "hasbara brigade" stuff referenced in the following article?

www.richardsilverstein.com...

4. What do you know about this "hasbara handbook?"

www.middle-east-info.org...

5. I see a lot of YouTube videos linked above. Strangely, several of them are usually posted by this "idfnadesk" character:

www.youtube.com...

Could "idfnadesk" possibly mean IDF, North American DESK? Actually, looking at that user's page it shows to be from the "IDF Spokesperson's Unit" so I may have already answered that one.

Thanks for your valuable information Skellon.

I appreciate your answers to the first 2 questions, Skellon. I found the 3rd "answer" to be quite weak and pretty much a "non-answer", but meh- maybe that one wasn't on your "talking points" card.

I think you forgot my questions # 4 and 5 on the last page (#121) when you replied before, though. (I have included the link and question #3 above for the whole hasbara continuity thing for the benefit of other readers). I was going to let those slide, but you seem to have copious time to post on this thread, so I would like to see substantial answers to those questions.

edited for clarity

[edit on 2-6-2010 by rhunter]

Originally posted by virgom129
reply to post by Skellon

 

As many trained soldiers have pointed out quite well on other sites.

If the Israel Gove didnt want a confrontation then they would have raided these boats in DAYLIGHT. Raiding untrained civiliens in darkness can only lead to what we have seen, panic by those onboard to unscene threats, explossions and gunfire.

Israel could have waited till dawn. The boats had no intention of getting closer till then anyway.

If you can explain why they attacked in darkness it would help me understand your point..

They attacked at Night so as to have less "clear" video footage of them provoking the assault by the "humanitarians". At least, that's why I think they attacked when they did....Otherwise there is 0 reason to attack at night...ESPECIALLY when the flotilla was parked in international waters, waiting till day-light to proceed for the very purpose of not wanting a confrontation in the night-time.

The I hate Israel folks are very irrational when it comes to their hatred for Israel.

I truly think it's Biblical because it's so irrational.

This was designed to provoke Israel. Humanitarian aid comes by air to Gaza and Israel can't chance a ship with weapons making it to Gaza then blowing up people in Israel.

People are truly blinded by their irrational hatred towards Israel and they can't wait to blame them for everything that goes on over there.

You never hear the I hate Israel crowd talk about the Billions we sent to Palestine along with other countries and this money is shared by the crooked leaders over there and the people live like it's 2,000 B.C. This is why Arafat died a billionaire and his wife was taking shopping trips in France.

These people are useful idiots. These are the people walking around with Che and Chairman Mao shirts like these mass murderers are heroes.

I'm not saying Israel is perfect but neither is the crooks who run Palestine.

Why didn't they just fly the humanitarian aid into Gaza?

You mean to tell me with all the billions sent in aid to Palestine, they still haven't done anything but enrich themselves?

This is why Arafat didn't want a peace deal. There's no money in peace. It's easier to spend the billions in aid and then blame everything on Israel. The only time aid gets to a Palestinian is if they blow themselves up.

reply to post by ElijahWan


Agreed but also anyone knows (if you watch war movies) that going in under the cover of darkness also causes maximun confusion.

And here we are talking about sleeping civilians for the most part.

Just a ridiculous scenario if you want a peaceful operation....

reply to post by Matrix Rising


So who proclaimed or plegded their "hatred of Israel" on this thread recently then, MR? I only read the first 5-6 and last 6-8 pages and might have missed that part. I'm sure you will be able to source that with quote(s) for us though...

Originally posted by virgom129
reply to post by Skellon

 

As many trained soldiers have pointed out quite well on other sites.

If the Israel Gove didnt want a confrontation then they would have raided these boats in DAYLIGHT. Raiding untrained civiliens in darkness can only lead to what we have seen, panic by those onboard to unscene threats, explossions and gunfire.

Israel could have waited till dawn. The boats had no intention of getting closer till then anyway.

If you can explain why they attacked in darkness it would help me understand your point..

As I see it virgom, they attacked under the cover of darkness so that in the event that the unexpected occured, they would not have given the press live daylight pictures of the worst case scenario; a botch up.

Read into that what you will, but you can atleast appreciate that if a special forces operation goes south, the govenrment responsible would hardly desire a graphical account with good lighting.

These considerations are more apt when you consider that they were fully aware of the live camera crews on board.

It was an 'insurance policy' and purely political.

This reasoning can also be deemed as a 'cover up', however I belive there is alot of evidence in that video to prove that these soldiers were not there to kill innocents and were genuinely suprised at the hostile aggression they faced.

Originally posted by Skellon
Flotilla Massacre: Cynthia McKinney interviewed on CBC's Connect with Mark Kelley
www.youtube.com...

Thanks for the link soleprobe,

Mostly what I heard though was a woman hell bent on an anti-Israel rant to the point where the interviewer has to remind her to get back on topic.

You're welcome Skellon

Enjoyed the interview myself.... the CBC audience rarely get to hear that particular angle on things.

I notice many folks who are staunch supporters of the State of Israel seem to use the word "anti" a lot towards those who see things differently about Israel (i.e. anti-Israel or anti-Semitic). Let's say someone disagrees with Turkey but I agree with Turkey... should I call that person who disagrees with Turkey an "anti-Turkey" or an anti-Turkish? Imagine if all folks were labeled “anti” for every nation that they disagreed with? You’d have to put “anti” in front of the name of every nation on earth.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Israel distributes PART of the aid it receives from other countries after they remove all the dangerous stuff like Chacolates and medicine first.

Yes Arafat is corrupt like a lot of leaders, we all live with that.

Most here, and the boats, were argueing that Israel have NO right to blockade the Gaza seaports as they (Israel) also refuse to accept they are the occupying force.

Israel cant have it both ways...

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by Skellon



Oh come on mate, please do not insult myself or yourself with such a question. It has already been stated that they were carrying 'live round' backup hand guns.

When they were given permission to use lethal force if their lives depended on it, they drew their handguns and eliminated their attempted killers.

You forgot the word ILLEGALLY in your sentence.

Good job i'm here eh?

As you can find over the last few pages, there's more and more evidence showing that this was an illegal raid.

Those crew had every right to defend themselves, much in the same way you would if you were on that boat.

Not just were the Israeli's inept and unprofessional, they punished the people who were victims of the IDF's terrible approach to this so called 'siege'.

But still, you've taken it upon yourself to defend the murderers who shouldn't have even been on the boat in the first place. I'm wondering why?

It sure isn't a moralistic stance you are taking and their does seem to be a lack of humanity in your stance on this issue. May i ask why?



[edit on 2-6-2010 by mr-lizard]

How can you call them murderers?

Seriously, if they indeed fired shots before landing on deck, they were warning shots.

It makes sense, the ship was repeatedly requested to stop and it did not.

The defiance warranted a 'wake up' call as I see it from the IDF point of view.

So therefore they fired warning shots.

Originally posted by virgom129
Most here, and the boats, were argueing that Israel have NO right to blockade the Gaza seaports as they (Israel) also refuse to accept they are the occupying force.

Israel cant have it both ways...

Yes they can. . .

They are doing it right now as we speak.

reply to post by Skellon


THat entire arguement fall totally flat for one very good reason...

Israel has never,never,never cared what the rest of the population thinks..

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
The I hate Israel folks are very irrational when it comes to their hatred for Israel.

No mate - it's not as black and white as that. If anything we're the 'lets find out what ACTUALLY happened before it gets totally brushed under the carpet. It's called humanity not hatred.

I truly think it's Biblical because it's so irrational.

Meh.. I'm an atheist.

This was designed to provoke Israel. Humanitarian aid comes by air to Gaza and Israel can't chance a ship with weapons making it to Gaza then blowing up people in Israel.

But we are not allowed to be provoked and shocked and disgusted at seeing peace protesters having their eyes shot out, or little children having their flesh burnt off by illegal white phosphorous grenades or seeing crew members shot (in international water) for defying Israel's illegal barricade.

People are truly blinded by their irrational hatred towards Israel and they can't wait to blame them for everything that goes on over there.

You are completely blind (and i daresay heartless) if you can defend and ignore the countless murders and tortures and beatings.

You never hear the I hate Israel crowd talk about the Billions we sent to Palestine along with other countries and this money is shared by the crooked leaders over there

So you at the same time criticise a boat full of people who wish to bring ACTUAL food, drink and medicine (considering Israel as you have just admitted can't even get the money to the right people) , yet you quite happily let them get murdered for trying to do something that you are struggling to do.

and the people live like it's 2,000 B.C. This is why Arafat died a billionaire and his wife was taking shopping trips in France.

So why didn't you ensure the money got to the starving, dying , wounded , the children, the elderly and the helpless family members of the Palestinians. If you are giving billions to the wrong people, and you get can't even launch a professional siege on an unarmed boat then don't you think logic suggest you are inept in some way, and therefore this is WHY people want to help the people, who cannot help themselves because greedy people and inept people are messing it up.

These people are useful idiots. These are the people walking around with Che and Chairman Mao shirts like these mass murderers are heroes.

No we don't. That's silly and rather off topic.

I'm not saying Israel is perfect but neither is the crooks who run Palestine.

Agreed. So let innocent people help innocent people then. Why are you so averse to people getting fed and shelter and fuel and medicine? Surely that's humanity? Or are you losing yours so much that you can't even see beyond your own mispreconceptions?

Why didn't they just fly the humanitarian aid into Gaza?

Why won't you let them grow some crops, and build some wells and homes? Then there would be no need for either planes or boats.

You mean to tell me with all the billions sent in aid to Palestine, they still haven't done anything but enrich themselves?

Hang on a sec. You just admitted yourself, that your guys give it to the wrong , corrupt people.

This is why Arafat didn't want a peace deal. There's no money in peace.

I agree. One greedy man amongst many.

The thing is. In your heart of hearts how would YOU solve it? How would you save the humanity in Palestine and Israel?

reply to post by soleprobe


Totally agreed but lets not forget we are talking about a country that wanted to change the English dictionary and in fact succedded in many countries.

The word Holocast can now only reflect the jewish holocast..All others are atrocities I guess.

BTW, I totally feel for all that were killed in ALL wars.