Riddle me this Athiests...

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

But why would an all-powerful being take the form of a purple unicorn?

A better question might be what form WOULD such a being take, if any at all.

Personally, I don't think God has any form, or His true form is formlessness. I posed that question the way I did to address the ilogic of the strawman that is the spaghetti monster. I frequently see and hear atheists arguing that if you can believe in God, then why can't you believe in purple unicorns or such, which never made any sense to me, unless we're talking about purple unicorns or spaghetti monsters who are omnipotent and omniscient, which brings me back to my original question: why would God choose such a form?

I think it odd that most Gods we humans have conjured up aren't seven headed green insectoids or purple unicorns - most are modeled after humans and many times the exhibit exaggerated forms of human qualities. The Greek Narcissus comes to mind.

Sounds like a fault in religion. Although Christianity doesn't teach that God is some old man in the sky. In fact, I don't think the Bible ever described what He truly looked like.

I don't think, however, that its any more plausible for one God to exist in one form or another - if he/she/it is omnipotent it can take on any form it wants so a purple unicorn is just as likely as the elderly Caucasian stereotype we have today.

If you were all-powerful and all-knowing, then there would be no reason to take on a physical form, unless you were trying to communicate with lesser beings who would be unable to perceive and understand your true form.

God's existence, regardless of physical form, is very unlikely especially if we're dealing with an omnipresent, all powerful, omnibenevolent being.

Why's that?

[edit on 20-6-2010 by ChickenPie]

If you believe in a super natural power you don't believe in science. You will die and cease to exist. Realize this!

reply to post by ChickenPie

Why's that?

The existence of such a being is highly illogical.

For instance there is a classic conundrum about being all powerful, namely:

Can God make a rock that is too big for him to lift?

If the answer is yes than he is not all powerful because the rock is too big for him to lift. If the answer is no than he is not all powerful because there is something he cannot do - make the rock.

For things like omnibenevolence the debunking is much easier. Why is there suffering? If God is truly all loving and all powerful he has the power to stop every last bit of suffering and evil instantaneously yet we still see children dying of cancer despite their fervent prayers to be healed and the herculean efforts of their doctors to keep them alive.

Another reason why its unlikely for such a God to exist is that there has never been a shred of evidence. In fact many religions believe that in order to be saved we need something called FAITH, which is essentially extreme gullibility, believing with no rational reason to believe. God leaves no evidence of his existence and then expects us to believe based on blind faith, OR ELSE? Sounds like a scam cooked up by religion to me.

There's the classic Epicurus quote:

"“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”"

Sometimes i can get pissed off by what happens to me. Does it mean i have faith?

Atheism has nothing to prove.

It is for those of faith to provide proof and I haven't seen any.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

Why's that?

The existence of such a being is highly illogical.

For instance there is a classic conundrum about being all powerful, namely:

Can God make a rock that is too big for him to lift?

You're asking for two feats that oppose each other to be done simultaneously. It's like asking someone to look to their left and right at the same time. God can make a rock so heavy that He cannot pick it up, and then afterward He'll pick it up to show you how strong He is. But to ask Him to set out and create an object that He cannot move, and then tell Him to move it at the same time... doesn't make any sense. After all, He first specifically created the rock so that He couldn't move it.

But then again, God may not be limited by what we humans think is "logic."

For things like omnibenevolence the debunking is much easier. Why is there suffering? If God is truly all loving and all powerful he has the power to stop every last bit of suffering and evil instantaneously yet we still see children dying of cancer despite their fervent prayers to be healed and the herculean efforts of their doctors to keep them alive.

Forgive me for sounding callous, but without suffering we would not truly know what happiness is. Imagine a world where everything was perfect and given to us. We wouldn't understand the perfection of the world because we would have no differing experience to measure it with. As for people who murder, steal, etc.: we're beings with free will. Would you prefer an omnipotent being to swoop down and steal away our free will for the sake of keeping the peace? Sounds a bit fascistic if you ask me. We'd merely be automatons if that were to happen. No better than computers. Further, many religions teach that this unjust life (and you're right, it is unjust) is not the end. They teach that there is an after life where all will be judged.

Another reason why its unlikely for such a God to exist is that there has never been a shred of evidence.

Yes, God has never come down and said, "Hey guys, I'm God, what's up?"

But then again... I wouldn't expect that from an all-powerful and all-knowing deity. Imagine if a super powerful being did come down and claim himself/herself/itself to be our God... Would you believe him? Maybe you'd ask him to do a few magic tricks first... Would you believe him after that? Personally, I don't think I would, because I don't know what's out there. For all I know, that being could be some ET using advanced technology to beguile the human race for whatever reason.

I've never sat down with God, talked to Him, or snapped His picture, but I think it's reasonable to believe He exists. It's either believe He exists, or believe that our universe arbitrarily manifested from nothingness and just so happened to hold the correct properties to create suns, planets, etc., which just so happened to form life--some of which just so happened to evolve to the point where it started to question its own existence and yearn for God. So, if you want to believe all that is what it is, and that there was never an intelligent source behind it, then fine. I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I know what I believe.

[edit on 20-6-2010 by ChickenPie]

[edit on 20-6-2010 by ChickenPie]

reply to post by ChickenPie

But then again, God may not be limited by what we humans think is "logic."

Perhaps that's the point. If God does not conform to any of our logic than God can be anything, who's to say what God is and what God isn't. We haven't seen any God or seen any evidence of one, all we have are the words of the religiously faithful and their interpretations of the God they believe in. Usually that God has to conform to logic on at least some level but you're right, if there is a God WHO KNOWS if said God has to be limited by logic.

But if God is NOT limited by logic he would be able to make the rock he cannot lift and then he wouldn't be all powerful.

but without suffering we would not truly know what happiness is

This is one of the reasons why even as a child I HATED the idea of spending forever in Heaven. The Biblical account of Heaven sounds awful, there appears to be no sadness, no conflict, no reason to have ambition and nothing to accomplish - you're just happy all the time - YAWN. One of my favorite features of life is the emotional roller coaster it puts us on but that doesn't appear to have ANYTHING to do with a God.

But then again... I wouldn't expect that from an all-powerful and all-knowing deity. Imagine if a super powerful being did come down and claim himself/herself/itself to be our God... Would you believe him?

If God suddenly appeared before every human being on the planet and showed that he was God (perhaps by making a new star in the heavens or creating a person from dirt right in front of us) than YES I would believe in God. The lack of evidence (and often the REQUIREMENT of Faith) is the main complaint us atheists have... If God does NOTHING to show himself to the world and then damns people to Hell than he's pretty much evil.

So, if you want to believe all that is what it is, and that there was never an intelligent source behind it, then fine. I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I know what I believe.

Its not a matter of belief for me, its a matter of evidence. There's no evidence for any god or intelligent source. Is there one? Maybe there is but until we find evidence I see no reason or need to believe in one. The Cosmos has incredible beauty no matter HOW it came into existence, whether it was created, is eternal, or somehow came from nothing doesn't detract at all from the stunning beauty and sheer awesomeness of it.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

But then again, God may not be limited by what we humans think is "logic."

But if God is NOT limited by logic he would be able to make the rock he cannot lift and then he wouldn't be all powerful.

I think the question itself is illogical. It's like asking can a light be on and off at the same time. It doesn't make much sense to ask if God can make an object immovable, and then in the same breath ask if He can move it. In any case, if God does exist, then He would have preceded everything, including logic... so the question is moot regardless.

This is one of the reasons why even as a child I HATED the idea of spending forever in Heaven. The Biblical account of Heaven sounds awful, there appears to be no sadness, no conflict, no reason to have ambition and nothing to accomplish - you're just happy all the time - YAWN. One of my favorite features of life is the emotional roller coaster it puts us on but that doesn't appear to have ANYTHING to do with a God.

If you believe in God, then you believe that love and your sense of happiness ultimately comes from Him. So, heaven to me would be a place where you are very close to God (the source). I don't see how one could say that they wouldn't be happy in such a setting, even if they were an atheist.

You kind of went off on a tangent here. You were wondering how a good all-powerful and all-knowing God could allow suffering. I just told you. What are your thoughts?

If God suddenly appeared before every human being on the planet and showed that he was God (perhaps by making a new star in the heavens or creating a person from dirt right in front of us) than YES I would believe in God.

How would that be proof that they're God? It'd only be proof that they're very powerful. If ants were sentient enough to fully perceive us (I'm not so sure they can), then I'm certain they'd look at us like we were Gods too. That doesn't mean we are though. The fact is we're just much more powerful and intelligent than they are in every way. Maybe that's why we can't see God... he may just be too complicated and big to be fully understood or noticed.

The lack of evidence (and often the REQUIREMENT of Faith) is the main complaint us atheists have... If God does NOTHING to show himself to the world and then damns people to Hell than he's pretty much evil.

Why should He show Himself to the world? Considering the shape the world is in, I'd think that would sort of go against what He appears to have planned. The world is crap right now and He does nothing to help it (at least directly). So, why would you expect Him to just show Himself? Wouldn't it be more logical to assume that He wants us to work and look for Him?

Its not a matter of belief for me, its a matter of evidence. There's no evidence for any god or intelligent source.

I know of no empirical evidence for God, but I think the nature of the universe (and everything within) may be a sign post pointing to God. Like I said before, I think it's more logical to assume that our universe was modeled and created out of nothing by an intelligent source rather than it arbitrarily popping into existence without any outside influence. I don't think the universe could have appeared, expanded, formed planets & suns, and then life, without the guidance of an intelligent force. Not only that, but humans have these ideas of order and morality. Where did that come from? Evolution? I agree, but where did evolution come from? If there is no God, then evolution just arbitrarily came to be and is as impersonal as a math equation. Why should we trust it if that's the case? So I can survive? Why does survival matter? After all, that is just another notion that was imprinted onto me by evolution.


[edit on 20-6-2010 by ChickenPie]

reply to post by ChickenPie


I don't think the question is moot. Let's go back to the logic thing, if God CAN violate logic than he is all powerful but if breaking logic means making a rock he cannot lift than he is NOT all powerful because he can't lift the rock. Its a never ending circular paradox like the sentence: This sentence is false.

If you believe in God, then you believe that love and your sense of happiness ultimately comes from Him. So, heaven to me would be a place where you are very close to God (the source). I don't see how one could say that they wouldn't be happy in such a setting, even if they were an atheist.

Depends on what kind of God we're talking about. I for one would not be happy in the presence of the Biblical God and wouldn't be able to enjoy Heaven knowing that the vast majority of other people were busy in Hell having the flesh melted from their bones for eternity. Also, a place without sadness would suck, everyone needs sadness, just like you said, to give the happiness meaning. If we were all just stuck on happiness ALL THE TIME it would be utterly creepy like some sort of plastic stepford wives reality.

You kind of went off on a tangent here. You were wondering how a good all-powerful and all-knowing God could allow suffering. I just told you. What are your thoughts?

I don't think it makes sense. To me the kicker is children who die of cancer. What kind of loving God who has the power to stop that from ever happening would remain silent?

How would that be proof that they're God?

You make the case that ants would perceive us as God. If it can be perceived as God should it not also be defined as God? How would God demonstrate his omnipresence - appear before everyone at the same time. How would God show he's all powerful - do something an all powerful being could do. How could God show he's all loving - SHOW US SOME LOVE and alleviate innocent people's suffering.

Instead we see nothing and though billions of religious folks testify to "revelation" or what I like to call "divine fuzzy feelings" how is that at all proof of a God?

Considering the shape the world is in, I'd think that would sort of go against what He appears to have planned.

What plan is that exactly? For Bible believers the plan is a pathetic one. Get this, the best God can do is send his son to die a horrific death even though GOD, being all knowing KNOWS that most will reject Christ and end up in Hell anyway. That's the best plan he could come up with, something that will utterly fail to convince even mild skeptics and this is an all powerful deity?

No, what it is is a story written by men.

If God has a plan it seems absent from the world around us and none of the religions agree on what that plan might be...

So, why would you expect Him to just show Himself?

Depends on what kind of God we're discussing. If its just the general Deist God, the grand watchmaker who sits back to watch the cosmos spin than I wouldn't expect him/her/it to show. But if its the Christian God I definitely would expect a little more proof. Damning people to hell based on whether they believe an implausible story about a guy who came back from the dead without a shred of proof?

Like I said before, I think it's more logical to assume that our universe was modeled and created out of nothing by an intelligent source rather than it arbitrarily popping into existence without any outside influence

I think either possibility leads to the same issue. If its the Universe coming from Nothing, or God coming from Nothing the question remains. Even if we were to assume the Universe is eternal and has always existed in some form we still run into a conundrum and to me none of the answers seem particularly logical.

Why does survival matter?

At the base level it matters to pass on your genes BUT on the species level it matters. Carl Sagan used to say "We are a way the Cosmos can know itself". All these big questions we've been batting back and forth in this discussion that's the legacy we leave behind - ideas. And maybe some day long after we're gone one of our ancestors will crack the mystery and answer the questions. Maybe in a few thousand years whether or not their is a God will be common knowledge taught in grade school, for now all we can do is stare up at the cosmos and ponder

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull: If you study science you'll find that everything once thought to be supernatural has been found to have a natural explanation.

This is completely false.

[edit on 20-6-2010 by steve_oZ]

[edit on 20-6-2010 by steve_oZ]

reply to post by steve_oZ


Umm... what?

Illness - Once thought to be caused by demons - has a natural explanation.

Mental Illness - same deal.

Bio-Diversity - once thought to be caused by creation - has a natural explanation.

Planets forming - natural explanation.

Volcanoes, lightning and other natural phenomenon - all once thought to be supernatural - all have natural explanations.

I think your statement is looking pretty shaky but I'll allow you to elaborate on your baseless assertion:

Name one thing that science has studied for which it did find an explanation that was outside nature.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Well buddy, the seed has been planted. If you don't want to believe by now, you never will.

reply to post by SFKNOLEG74


The seed has been planted? The seed of what? Ignorant blind faith to believe in something for which there is no evidence... No thanks, I'll pass on the seeds, and on that note on the special "Kool Aid" as well.



[edit on 20-6-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

I don't think the question is moot. Let's go back to the logic thing, if God CAN violate logic than he is all powerful but if breaking logic means making a rock he cannot lift than he is NOT all powerful because he can't lift the rock. Its a never ending circular paradox like the sentence: This sentence is false.

But the question itself is illogical! Logic is broken long before any answer is given. That's my point.

Depends on what kind of God we're talking about.

I try to keep things simple when talking about God. When I speak of God I speak of a being who is all-powerful and all-knowing who preceded everything and ultimately created everything.

I for one would not be happy in the presence of the Biblical God and wouldn't be able to enjoy Heaven knowing that the vast majority of other people were busy in Hell having the flesh melted from their bones for eternity.

Not to defend the Bible, because I'm unsure of its authenticity, but I think you're taking the idea of hell too literally. I think hell just means death and complete separation from God, while heaven is uniting with or at least being very close to God. If God is ultimately the source of everything, then being completely separated from him would truly be "hell."

I don't think it makes sense. To me the kicker is children who die of cancer. What kind of loving God who has the power to stop that from ever happening would remain silent?

Reread my previous response to this. If that's not a good enough explanation, then I have nothing else to offer in that regard. I believe our universe is flawed. Was our universe always flawed? Perhaps... God may have purposely created a flawed world where kids can get cancer and people can die of natural disasters, but this may all be just a lesson. Who knows? Maybe this flawed world exists to prepare us for something that awaits us in the future?

You make the case that ants would perceive us as God. If it can be perceived as God should it not also be defined as God?

To use the ant example again, we're not actually Gods. I didn't create ants, nor did I create the world they inhabit, nor the universe the world inhabits.

How would God demonstrate his omnipresence - appear before everyone at the same time. How would God show he's all powerful - do something an all powerful being could do. How could God show he's all loving - SHOW US SOME LOVE and alleviate innocent people's suffering.

How would we know that He's appearing before everyone at the same time? How would we know His power isn't limited to showing himself to only 6 billion people? How do you demonstrate absolute power? How can we trust our senses enough to perceive this display of absolute power and realize that it is indeed absolute power?

What plan is that exactly?

The world is in a crappy state in almost all respects... and God is nowhere to be seen. He doesn't appear to directly intervene. I've already given an explanation for why I think that is. Now, if God is unwilling to directly intervene by, for example, healing children with cancer, then why would you expect Him to swoop down and say hi, then put on a magic show so that you'd believe in Him?

For Bible believers the plan is a pathetic one. Get this, the best God can do is send his son to die a horrific death even though GOD, being all knowing KNOWS that most will reject Christ and end up in Hell anyway. That's the best plan he could come up with, something that will utterly fail to convince even mild skeptics and this is an all powerful deity?

I'm personally discussing a more general idea of God, so what the Bible claims happened is of no consequence to me. Maybe one day I'll believe in it, but until then...

[edit on 21-6-2010 by ChickenPie]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by SFKNOLEG74

 

I think either possibility leads to the same issue. If its the Universe coming from Nothing, or God coming from Nothing the question remains. Even if we were to assume the Universe is eternal and has always existed in some form we still run into a conundrum and to me none of the answers seem particularly logical.

Maybe the answer isn't logical. Maybe our idea of logic is fundamentally flawed.

I have to ask you though, if scientists "found out" that the universe was eternal, then would you ask them: but who created the universe? Or what was before the universe? Theists are asked that same question whenever they claim that God preceded everything and is eternal.

At the base level it matters to pass on your genes BUT on the species level it matters. Carl Sagan used to say "We are a way the Cosmos can know itself". All these big questions we've been batting back and forth in this discussion that's the legacy we leave behind - ideas. And maybe some day long after we're gone one of our ancestors will crack the mystery and answer the questions. Maybe in a few thousand years whether or not their is a God will be common knowledge taught in grade school, for now all we can do is stare up at the cosmos and ponder

According to who does it matter? My point is... our feelings and our reasoning behind why we should survive or whatever come from evolution, but if there is no God, then these ideas are as impersonal as a math equation, perhaps even more so because math equations are commonly done by sentient beings while evolution just is.

So, allow me to ask again, why should we trust or listen, for lack of a better word, to evolution?

reply to post by ChickenPie

He doesn't appear to directly intervene. I've already given an explanation for why I think that is. Now, if God is unwilling to directly intervene and heal children with cancer, then why would you expect Him to swoop down and say hi, then put on a magic show so that you'd believe in Him?

This is where we can agree, perhaps. He doesn't appear to intervene and therefore doesn't even appear to exist in any sense. If God doesn't appear to exist, if there's no evidence of it, than WHY believe at all?

Let's go back to those ants, you weren't sure they could perceive us. If God is imperceptible than what is the purpose of believing in God? This I think is the classic statement of agnosticism - if there is a God he is unknowable or imperceptible. So why believe in something we cannot sense in any way and for which there is no evidence?

If there were any evidence, even something less than him performing a magic show I would be far more inclined to belief. What is the point in believing in an all powerful, all loving omnipresent, all knowing being if no such being can be shown to exist and doesn't appear to do anything we can perceive? I don't see the benefit or purpose of believing something like that on faith.

It all boils down to the lack of evidence for me.

I have to ask you though, if scientists "found out" that the universe was eternal, then would you ask them: but who created the universe? Or what was before the universe? Theists are asked that same question whenever they claim that God preceded everything and is eternal.

Yes I would ask them. Part of what makes life worth while is asking and pondering the big questions. Now science might just admit "we don't know for sure yet" which is basically the stage they are at right now. That doesn't mean that they stop looking. The religious answer is typically "God did it" and then they stop looking for new data and new ideas and just go back to their particular book of myths while science keeps looking for the REAL answer.

but if there is no God, then these ideas are as impersonal as a math equation, perhaps even more so because math equations are commonly done by sentient beings while evolution just is.

But why? These ideas have immense subjective value with or without God. You seem to suggest that without God life becomes meaningless when in truth if life came about without a creator we are the most important thing to ever come out of the Universe. Being made from dirt by a big guy in the sky is lame compared to slowly evolving into our current sentient state, if you ask me but that's just my opinion on the subject.

So, allow me to ask again, why should we trust or listen, for lack of a better word, to evolution?

Have you looked into the scientific evidence for evolution. Its overwhelming. The fossil record, genetics, behavior, every field of biology points firmly and exclusively toward evolution as the source of bio-diversity on planet Earth. Evolution is not a matter of belief, its a reality whether we want to believe it or not.

[edit on 21-6-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Kool Aid; that's funny. Well I tried. Keep on trying to find out the whole meaning of life, and God through science. You will fail. Only through faith and Christ will you find the answers.

reply to post by SFKNOLEG74


I was raised under that belief it offers no answers, just comforting illusions and stories.

I'm gonna go where the evidence leads and unless it leads to Jesus I guess I'm SOL from your point of view.

But thanks for the attempt, it warms my heart to know there are people worried about my immortal soul... like Jesus said though I think you ought to be more concerned about the log in your own eye first

[edit on 21-6-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

This is where we can agree, perhaps. He doesn't appear to intervene and therefore doesn't even appear to exist in any sense. If God doesn't appear to exist, if there's no evidence of it, than WHY believe at all?

It's not like I set out to believe in God. I just believe in God. Maybe I'm just a moron. I also believe we should respect Him by acknowledging His power and existence, and by doing good.

Let's go back to those ants, you weren't sure they could perceive us. If God is imperceptible than what is the purpose of believing in God? This I think is the classic statement of agnosticism - if there is a God he is unknowable or imperceptible. So why believe in something we cannot sense in any way and for which there is no evidence?

I don't know if we can or cannot perceive God, but it really doesn't matter to me because I think He exists. Maybe we can just perceive aspects of God, like an ant sensing a human finger blocking its path without knowing the intention of the finger, who it belongs to, or whether or not it's part of something larger.

If there were any evidence, even something less than him performing a magic show

I would be far more inclined to belief. What is the point in believing in an all powerful, all loving omnipresent, all knowing being if no such being can be shown to exist and doesn't appear to do anything we can perceive? I don't see the benefit or purpose of believing something like that on faith.

I don't look at it as how my beliefs can benefit me. I just believe God exists. I don't even know if there is an after life or if I'll ever see God. It doesn't matter to me though... I just feel obligated to respect Him by being as ideal as possible; and that should be good enough for me. I'm not doing a very good job at it though. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say you're probably a better person than me.

reply to post by ChickenPie


Well ChickenPie your belief in God is fine by me, I don't think it makes you a moron - though I'm still a bit perplexed as to why you want to believe I fully respect your decision.

This has certainly been an interesting conversation, its been nice to converse with a theist who doesn't make me want to bang my head into the wall repeatedly

In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say you're probably a better person than me.

Seeing as how we know very little of each other, other than our personal stance on the God question, I'd say that makes us equals by default.