Why the HELL are you NOT a Libertarian?

reply to post by poet1b

The U.S. was founded as a republic, on the philosophies of John Locke that believed that government has an important role in protecting the rights of the individual. The U. S. Constitution was written by people who believed that we needed a strong federal government. Stop listening to what people tell you, and start doing your own research.

John Locke was just one influence on The Constitution for the United States of America, and there were several other influences, dating as far back as the Athenian model, Plato's Republic, Thomas Hobbes, Charles de Montesquieu, Thomas Paine, and as far as The Bill of Rights go, John Stuart Mill. The Magna Carta, The English Bill of Rights, and a long history of common law also were influential on that document. Of course, this may not agree with your precious marxist site, but it is nevertheless true, and if you have bothered to read the works of those mentioned, you wouldn't have a hard time recognizing their influence on the Constitution.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


If you want to know what communism is, go to the source, don't let other people tell you what communism is, read Marx. How hard is that to figure out?

What, you think by reading the Communist Manifesto, you're going to be brainwashed into becoming a commie?

OOPS, Too late, you are already are brainwashed into buying it under the name of the Free Market.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
You can't eradicate all the ants without highly advanced technology and they have it...If you think this is going to be fist to face tyranny your wrong they have a big bag of tricks...and I am worried about everyone else not standing up because it could cost me my families lives...Like I said I understand your mind set and no disrespect we just handle things in different ways...

reply to post by poet1b


If you want to go directly to the source, then you have to read Marx himself. I have done this. Not just his little pamphlet The Communist Manifesto, co written with Frederich Engels, but his tedious tome Das Kapital. I read this book back in college when I thought I was a communist. All it took was Karl Marx himself to convince me otherwise. How he did so, was in explaining how to overturn a capitalist society. He said the only way to beat the capitalist is to undermine their currency, because you just can't beat a one on one situation.

I realize I am paraphrasing Marx, but this was what he was saying, and it is easy to see why Engels was brought in to write the Communist Manifesto with Marx, as Engels is clearly the better writer. I don't think Marx had a clue that he was admitting that capitalism is the better system, and of course, this is why a one on one situation can't be beat, because there is no better economic system than that. If I don't like your product I don't have to buy it, and if you don't like me, or don't like what I am offering in exchange for your product, you don't have to sell it to me. That is what a free market is, and no amount of Leninism and Fabianism on your part will make it otherwise.

Sure, I can understand why the Marxists would want to be seen as libertarians, but a transexual is as easy to spot for who they are as is any communist claiming to be a libertarian. Only difference is, Adam's apples and thick thighs is what gives the tranny away, and empty rhetoric is usually what gives the Marxist away.

"I am not a Marxist!"

~Karl Marx~

"Sure, I can understand why the Marxists would want to be seen as libertarians, but a transexual is as easy to spot for who they are as is any communist claiming to be a libertarian. Only difference is, Adam's apples and thick thighs is what gives the tranny away, and empty rhetoric is usually what gives the Marxist away."


THAT WAS CLASSIC HAHAHAHAHA

reply to post by NWOWILLFALL


Tyranny is tyranny regardless if it is fist to face or more obsequious. I don't know what you mean by handling tyranny differently, but it sure sounds like you've all ready surrendered, and if you imagining surrendering your own power is going to save you, this is your choice, no matter how imprudent it may be.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by NWOWILLFALL]

[edit on 13-5-2010 by NWOWILLFALL]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Have you read what John Locke wrote? Do you know who taught Washington and Jefferson about Locke?

Red pill or the blue pill, the choice is yours.

reply to post by NWOWILLFALL


I am not at all advocating riding along with the system, and I certainly am not calling you a prude. What I am doing is responding to your words. I understand you want us all to unite, but here we are you and I, both strong believers in the Inalienable Rights of all people, yet we are not united. Why? We are brothers, you and I, and there is no reason to be divided. All I have done is advocate that you recognize your own personal power and lead by example, and not worry about who is following you, and that if you learn to lead leaders, and by that I mean me, and the O.P. and others like us, not politicians, then you will get your followers. Not that the O.P. and I are followers, as anyone who knows us can attest to, but if you can get us on board for whatever you have up your sleeve, then I assure, the followers will come.

"If you build it, they will come"

~Field of Dreams~

POST SCRIPT: Thanks for the nod on my little wisecrack above. It is appreciated.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Ok now reading back a bit I understand...It's all good...Thats the big "secret" they wanna keep from us we are all one, the moment that cat is out of the bag they are done...I believe that there is still time...



[edit on 13-5-2010 by NWOWILLFALL]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

He said the only way to beat the capitalist is to undermine their currency, because you just can't beat a one on one situation.

BINGO, who has been undermining our currency? Who ran up huge national debts and changed the rules to banking leading to huge private as well as public debt?

Who presided over this latest fiasco? Who deregulated the finance industry?

All done under the con of the free market.

How much more do you need for this to sink in?

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Have you read what John Locke wrote? Do you know who taught Washington and Jefferson about Locke?

Red pill or the blue pill, the choice is yours.

I have read John Locke and while it is evident that Jefferson largely plagiarized Locke, there is a fundamental change Jefferson made to Locke's words. Where Locke declared that Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Property were Inalienable Rights, Jefferson changed Property to Happiness. Jefferson was largely self taught, as their family was wealthy enough to have their own damn school and Jefferson had the luxury of plenty of time to read and is better read than most people today.

As to the choices you offered, there is, of course, a third choice...can you what figure out what that is?

reply to post by poet1b

BINGO, who has been undermining our currency? Who ran up huge national debts and changed the rules to banking leading to huge private as well as public debt?

I am with you on this thought, brother. All the way! In fact, I have been making pretty much this argument about the Fed in another thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

All done under the con of the free market.

I am not sure if I agree with this statement or not. If by under the con of a free market you mean to say, the pretense that today's heavily regulated market place is called a free market, then I agree. If you mean to say that free markets are a con, it goes without saying I disagree.

How much more do you need for this to sink in?

It sunk in years ago. What about you?

reply to post by NWOWILLFALL

Ok now reading back a bit I understand...It's all good...Thats the big "secret" they wanna keep from us we are all one, the moment that cat is out of the bag they are done...I believe that there is still time...

There you go, brother! There is still time, as time is just a perception anyway. The whole history of humanity has been a steady march towards freedom and it won't be derailed by some mysterious acronymistic TPTB, no "frelling" way. We are all one, each and everyone of us are made up of the same stuff, and I ain't talking biologically here, I mean spiritually, we are all of the same stuff, and have the same power as the Great I Am that I Am, and brother just as you are, I Am too! It is all good, and we will prevail.

Originally posted by endisnighe
There is one tenet of Libertarianism.

You have the RIGHT to do anything as long as you do not infringe on someone else's rights of Life, Liberty or Property.

I will always be your friend and benefactor.

You have the right to your own world. You have the right to believe in what you want. You have the right to self determination.

Why the HELL are you not a Libertarian?

I am not a libertarian because l am something else. I'm me and don't wish to pigeonhole myself. The Libertarian principal you quote I couldn't live by with certainty. If someone raped my daughter, I'd probably kill them. I might hold him hostage and torture him. There goes life and liberty. If my neighbors pitbull bit my wife, I'd shoot it. There goes property. You asked.

Why are you not an independent who simply votes for the candidate who most closely represents your ideals? Just because that's the party line doesn't mean every libertarian abides by it. I know several who ran for office as a libertarian because they couldn't win their dem/rep primary. They still vote how they want to vote regardless of the partty line. Vote for good people. Vote for someone who has integrity regardless of their beliefs. If you vote for someone who is a good moral person who has done the right thing over the course of their lives and a voting record that holds true to his beliefs then your better off than voting for someone because of their party crede.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

If you mean to say that free markets are a con, it goes without saying I disagree.

You need to explain you position on this a great deal better.

Today's regulated market is far less regulated than it was a little over a decade ago.

Once again, see what I said about third way economics.

The deregulation of the Gingriches plan has led to disaster.

All attempts at deregulation have lead to disaster.

But let's not pretend that poor regulation is a solution. There is no simple solution, only a patchwork of compromises seems to be the answer.

reply to post by poet1b

Today's regulated market is far less regulated than it was a little over a decade ago.

That's actually very, very wrong. The only thing specifically that was de-regulated was the mega banks way of writing mortgages, the reserve ratio and the Governments lack of understanding about derivatives.

With the Free Market it must remain free.. you can't have it free, then as it collapses regulate.. it's a neo-fascist way of privatizing the profits and socializing the losses. Had the Free Market remained in place the likes of every major bank in the country would have collapsed. Regional banks that didn't gamble like mad with deregulated exotic instruments, would have formed the new foundation of our economy.

Also.. there's a reason deregulated economies see much more catastrophes. Most businesses that collapse need to collapse. Now, with this new ultra regulated economy we have shell corporations with balance books bigger than most European countries that don't produce profit, have no business plan.. the only thing they seem able to do at the moment is speculate the equities markets, causing the entire economy to be bent out of shape. If a company does something stupid and get's it's self bankrupt (Citi, BoA, GM, Chrysler etc) ... they deserve to die. simple as that. Capitalism is supposed to be a cycle of life and death.

[edit on 5/14/2010 by Rockpuck]

reply to post by poet1b

Today's regulated market is far less regulated than it was a little over a decade ago.

A regulated market is not a free market, anymore than slavery is freedom to be owned. "De-regulation" is double speak for less regulation. All markets have regular cycles that include recessions. Recessions may be disasters for those who don't prepare for them, but this is the consequence of foolishness. You are right, let's not pretend that poor regulation is a solution, nor should we pretend that regulation in any form is a solution. If a free market is to be free then it is not regulated, it is just that simple. It has been a longtime game of the Marxists to point to a regulated market and declare it a free market. Free market advocates do not fall prey to this propaganda, and don't need Marxists to tell them what a free market is.

reply to post by Rockpuck


No, you are very, very, very wrong.

You don't remember when Gingrich gutted Glass Seagal? Numerous people predicted what would happen at the time, and it happened. At what point do you wake up to reality?

There is no such thing as a free market. It is a ludicrous idealistic concept.

Are you not capable of connecting the facts that banks collapsing creates no balance. The people who commit the fraud walk away with all the gains from their crooked schemes.

What you support is legalized fraud.

Capitalism is supposed to be a market system, not a system for robbing people through fraud. You want a brutal system of life and death? Then we should take all the executives of these corporations, and put them to death, and confiscate their property to pay back the people who were robbed through fraudulent means.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


And a sharp stick in the eye is a sharp stick in the eye, and that is essentially what the free market concept is.

The U.S. was founded on the concept that government is created out of necessity to protect our rights. See the links I have already provided. This means protecting people from fraudulent business practices, like any other form of crime.

What you call for is nothing but the allowance of fraudulent business practices.

What you call for is no different than allowing a rapist to finish with his business before anything is done about it, and then explaining the crime off as a natural function.

There is no such thing as a free market.

It is ignorance of reality.