Teapartiers: What an outrage!

reply to post by LurkerMan


useing my own example. the Federal Government represents the Costco worker who checks the memberships at the door, and Arizona represents a Cashier within the stoor. just because a non-member got passed the doorman without showing a membership doesnt mean the cashier cant still ask for it while your in line, and kick you out before purchasing your products.

the doorman isnt the only person in the stoor with the authority to check to make sure your allowed to be there. these poeple are getting paid to SERVE customers, so if your not a customer they sure as hell arent going to serve you. and they all have the authority to choose who will receive the benifits of that service, seeing as how they are the ones performing said service.

Originally posted by johnny2127

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
reply to post by digifanatic

 

No it's not always a quick search, and yes they can check names but the system sucks. Local DMV's in each state don't even connect with each other in some cases. I've seen the systems used for name checks they suck. There often isn't enough information to relate the information to the person you are looking at. You are right sometimes they will catch illegals, most of the time...they won't.

Well it sounds like even if 100% of what you say is true, some illegals will pass the check, but many still won't and will be caught and deported. Why is this bad?

Because a majority of them won't get caught. And people seem to be missing my biggest point. You want them deported? Alright here is what happens when an immigrant commits a crime. First they go through local court systems, serve their sentence, THEN if they are deportable and ICE knows about them or USCIS they will get put into EOIR for deportation/removal/inadmissibility hearings. This process in EOIR can take years...why you ask because there aren't enough immigration judges.

In the case of illegal’s the fact that they are here is not a criminal offense, it's an administrative offense. That's why you have separate courts (EOIR) for them. That's why they have to be convicted of certain crimes before they are deportable. (Not universal by the way) An illegal gets picked up and often times they are allowed to VD (voluntarily depart the country) even that can take a lot of time. The only time they are removed with any haste is when they try to come into the country.

Where will you hold illegal’s? Our jails are full, you can't just take them to the border they will come right back in within 24 hours. I've seen people deported and back in the country in less time than that. Who will pick them up and take them to the border? Who will pay for it? You get my point? It's not just as simple as they are here illegally lets deport them. If they file for asylum you can't remove them until their case is heard. There are people currently deported but that cannot leave this country because their home country sucks.

My point is the systems/system we have now do not work like they should, they don't catch enough people, and when we do catch them our system is so slow that it doesn't matter. Unless it is reworked from top to bottom you won't get anywhere. You need the man power, money, and reformed laws. Amnesty isn't the answer, neither is deporting everyone. The last time we offered amnesty hardly anyone took it.

reply to post by Everwatcher33


So it sounds like you want more stringent measures. That correct?

reply to post by johnny2127


In some cases yes, but stopping people and asking for papers because they look illegal isn't the answer. I don't mind harsher laws for some cases, but for others harsh isn't the answer. If you commit murder, rape, molest a child, you should be SWIFTLY taken through the system and out of our damn country. I think local law enforcement for border states should be better educated through a partnership with federal agencies.

I can't begin to list all of the problems with the current system. But I will agree that federal authorities NEED local law enforcement right now because they do not have the man power.

Get the troops patrolling the border, and you won't have to worry about asking for papers....

Originally posted by Chronogoblin

Originally posted by murfdog
Before you can hire an employee they need to show proof of citizenship or legitimate working papers.

I thought they were supposed to be doing that already? But then look the other way when someone's SS number doesn't come back right. Isn't that the point here? That people are ignoring, and basically breaking the law?


Chrono

Well my friend that is the big joke about this whole illegal alien charade.
An employer under the law is forbidden from checking the legitimacy of an employees SSN. The ACLU has made sure of that. So as long as a person has a SSN, whether valid or not, he cannot discriminate against employing that individual.
The employer withholds taxes from the illegal employee and sends it to the fed. The fed sees that it is a bogus SSN so it keeps the money and gives no refund (that makes the fed very happy).
The employer gets a cheep laborer (that makes the employer very happy).
The down side to all of this is that it keeps the income level for the working man stagnated well below the pay of there executive counter parts. Some executives are earning 500 time the income of the working Joe.



[edit on 21-4-2010 by murfdog]

Originally posted by Darkrunner
Get the troops patrolling the border, and you won't have to worry about asking for papers....

Yeah because we have enough military for that right? Come on something more realistic please... They have enough to do with two wars, and being stationed in almost every damn country they can find.

By the way you know a lot of immigrants use the military for fast track citizenship right? Hmm got some friends you want in the country?

[edit on 4/21/2010 by Everwatcher33]

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
reply to post by johnny2127

 

In some cases yes, but stopping people and asking for papers because they look illegal isn't the answer. I don't mind harsher laws for some cases, but for others harsh isn't the answer. If you commit murder, rape, molest a child, you should be SWIFTLY taken through the system and out of our damn country. I think local law enforcement for border states should be better educated through a partnership with federal agencies.

I can't begin to list all of the problems with the current system. But I will agree that federal authorities NEED local law enforcement right now because they do not have the man power.

So considering that Arizona has been asking the Federal Govt for help for years and they won't especially under Obama, what would you propose AZ do? Sit and take it? Yes? No? If no, what sort of laws should they pass, when the murder, kidnapping, and drug problems are a direct result of illegal immigrants and the fact they are a border state.

Originally posted by Everwatcher33

Originally posted by Darkrunner
Get the troops patrolling the border, and you won't have to worry about asking for papers....

Yeah because we have enough military for that right? Come on something more realistic please... They have enough to do with two wars, and being stationed in almost every damn country they can find.

By the way you know a lot of immigrants use the military for fast track citizenship right? Hmm got some friends you want in the country?

[edit on 4/21/2010 by Everwatcher33]

Well if Obama would get the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan like he said he was going to do, I would think that would be more than enough manpower to prevent the illegals running roughshod through the border states...

reply to post by Everwatcher33


Something more realistic is needed. How about changing our immigration laws? That's realistic. We can adopt another country's laws for dealing with illegal immigrants. Maybe Mexico's laws? If we can prove that it works, and we can, then we should be able to fast track the bill through congress and the senate if we get enough on board on the grounds that it simply works.

We can also ignore PC and do what Eisenhower did which would actually save money in the long run.

Originally posted by johnny2127

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
reply to post by johnny2127

 

In some cases yes, but stopping people and asking for papers because they look illegal isn't the answer. I don't mind harsher laws for some cases, but for others harsh isn't the answer. If you commit murder, rape, molest a child, you should be SWIFTLY taken through the system and out of our damn country. I think local law enforcement for border states should be better educated through a partnership with federal agencies.

I can't begin to list all of the problems with the current system. But I will agree that federal authorities NEED local law enforcement right now because they do not have the man power.

So considering that Arizona has been asking the Federal Govt for help for years and they won't especially under Obama, what would you propose AZ do? Sit and take it? Yes? No? If no, what sort of laws should they pass, when the murder, kidnapping, and drug problems are a direct result of illegal immigrants and the fact they are a border state.

It's not just AZ asking for help, CBP, USCIS, ICE have all been asking for help for a long time, haven't gotten it. AZ can pass the law all they want they still won't be getting rid of people, that law states they turn them over to ICE, ice will just let them go they can't deal with them all.

Everyone has to sit and take it right now, because what no one has the tools to fight the problem. And while those crimes are a direct result of illegals they are also a result of american citizens, legal residents, drug users who are citizens, illegals and perm residents. You can't lump those crimes as just being direct results from illegals.

It's hard to say what exactly to do, strictly speaking of the illegal problem. First of all we should modifiy a system like E-verify to actually work and increase it's ability to detect people. Then provide it to local authorities on border states first. Teach them how to use it, what to look for, what Federal authorities look for. If they can prove that they are indeed illegal, ICE needs a seperate entity in it to handle those cases alone, stream line the process. Take their information, prints, set them up in the system. You need to hire more immigration judges to hear the cases. The problem now is illegals go into the same pool of cases as people who have commited murders.

CBP needs more money and people willing to patrol the border, increase their money and man power to deter coming in in the first place. Some argue build a fence...mexican just tunnel under it.

The director of homeland security was the GOV on AZ no? The passage of this law doesn't do anything, they still have no way to enforce it and it will cause problems when you have cops just stopping people to provide papers citizens and alike. What happens when you have citizens who don't have their papers on them and they try to deport them? Big ass law suit.

Originally posted by digifanatic
reply to post by Everwatcher33

 

Something more realistic is needed. How about changing our immigration laws? That's realistic. We can adopt another country's laws for dealing with illegal immigrants. Maybe Mexico's laws? If we can prove that it works, and we can, then we should be able to fast track the bill through congress and the senate if we get enough on board on the grounds that it simply works.

We can also ignore PC and do what Eisenhower did which would actually save money in the long run.

Yeah it is realistic and needed badly. We should look at other countries, part of the problem is we are too open to receiving everyone.

And the debate goes on, good night all.

[edit on 4/21/2010 by Everwatcher33]

reply to post by Everwatcher33


I don't think we are that open to receiving. I know that we have a quota system by nationality in place for legal immigration. It may just seem like we let everyone in because there was the amnesty bill that got passed, I think, in the 80's. Plus there are a lot of illegal aliens (used broadly) in this country.

Originally posted by Everwatcher33

It's not just AZ asking for help, CBP, USCIS, ICE have all been asking for help for a long time, haven't gotten it. AZ can pass the law all they want they still won't be getting rid of people, that law states they turn them over to ICE, ice will just let them go they can't deal with them all.

Everyone has to sit and take it right now, because what no one has the tools to fight the problem. And while those crimes are a direct result of illegals they are also a result of american citizens, legal residents, drug users who are citizens, illegals and perm residents. You can't lump those crimes as just being direct results from illegals.

It's hard to say what exactly to do, strictly speaking of the illegal problem. First of all we should modifiy a system like E-verify to actually work and increase it's ability to detect people. Then provide it to local authorities on border states first. Teach them how to use it, what to look for, what Federal authorities look for. If they can prove that they are indeed illegal, ICE needs a seperate entity in it to handle those cases alone, stream line the process. Take their information, prints, set them up in the system. You need to hire more immigration judges to hear the cases. The problem now is illegals go into the same pool of cases as people who have commited murders.

CBP needs more money and people willing to patrol the border, increase their money and man power to deter coming in in the first place. Some argue build a fence...mexican just tunnel under it.

The director of homeland security was the GOV on AZ no? The passage of this law doesn't do anything, they still have no way to enforce it and it will cause problems when you have cops just stopping people to provide papers citizens and alike. What happens when you have citizens who don't have their papers on them and they try to deport them? Big ass law suit.

See herein lies the problem. You only see Federal solutions. To you, only the Federal Govt has the right or authority to do anything about this. This is where myself and most people in AZ completely disagree with you. AZ has the right to defend itself and keep illegals out of their state.

And its not the fault of US citizens when illegals are killing border patrol agents and citizens with no ties to drugs. Not any US citizens fault when illegals are kidnapping US citizens for random.

reply to post by skunknuts


To be a little clearer, its the idea of an open border that enrages me. I have zero problem with anyone coming here legally as my Great-Grandparents did.

It is the failure to close the border to Illegals that cost my family so dearly and filled our prisons to capacity.

Only criminals would be intimidated by being asked for a simple ID. Reasonable law abiding people would understand fully the need.

Contrary to your assertion, the Constitution only applies to US Citizens. Mexican Citizens fall under Mexico's laws and here they must obey our laws. Try going to Mexico without papers. Go ahead and try. When you get there, go to the nearest police station and turn yourself in. See how they treat you for crossing their border illegally.

I overreacted because of the price my family paid for useless politicians who pander for votes that refuse to close the damn border.

Don't make the mistake of labeling me and assuming what my mindset is. I think they should make it way easier for people from Mexico to come here and work. I just want them to keep the criminals that Mexico so willingly shares with us out of this country. What is wrong with that exactly?

What is right exactly with Politicians who fail to do the governments primary function of protecting us, just so they can pander votes? How does one defend that fact?

Why should the people who live on the border be exposed to this danger because the government failed them? What did they do to deserve this?

I appologize for a couple of my comments. This is a real sore point with me. I should have been more reasonable.

Where my Sister In-Law was butchered the Police are not allowed to turn over Illegals to the proper authorities. It is a sanctuary community for Illegals. The man who did it was arrested earlier the same day for assaulting another woman in his first attempt to abduct and rape a woman. Instead of giving him to the Immigration Authorities they let him go with bail. He immediately grabbed a woman off the streets, drug her into a Motel Room and when she defended herself he stabbed her dozens of times until she bled out.

The Detective tells us he will get Parole and when he does, they are not going to deport him. He said he will move a few miles away, change his name and do it all over again. What kind of system is that? Had he been an American Citizen they would have gone for the death penalty. The local politicians allow this so they can get the Hispanic vote. Is that not complicity in a murder?

The Victim? Her young husband had just died of cancer. A few months later an Illegal and known criminal takes her life. How do we explain to her children the reason their mother is dead and the murderer plead out is because people like Bush, Obama and the local politicians would rather allow these criminals to come here any time they wish than risk votes? I'd like both Obama and Bush to sit down face to face with her children and look them in the eye while they admit she is dead so they could get more votes. I'm serious about that. That is reality. Pretending there is not risk in an open border is not reality. It is insanity.

reply to post by Logarock


So half the people questioned would be legal. That is the problem. How many times does an American citizen have to prove his or her origin? If I had been asked to show said documentation because of the color of my skin I would be royally p.o.ed. and more then once? I would have a nice lawyer on retainer. Now this is not to say I am for illegal immigration, far from it, I'm just saying that laws like these are on thin ice at best.

Oh for fake jeebuz sake! You know what? Everyone yiping that this is about illegal aliens is wrong. It's about YOU. The born here American Citizen.

You can be walking down the street, obeying the law minding your own damn business and under this law you can be stopped with no probable cause and have to prove your citizenship. Left your proof at home? Too damn bad Billy Bob... we're going downtown!
Yee-haw! Now that's M'urkan aint it? The Founding Fathers would pimp slap every one of you advocating this.

All this talk about the Constitution being in line with that is garbage. These lawmakers proposing this are wiping their fat rumps with it.

And before some constitutional genius comes out and says if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about, don't bother...

That is ALWAYS what the populace says before they allow REAL tyrants to take over.

Dip your tea bags in that why don'tcha?

reply to post by Angus123


There is a real solution that if your being honest you should be all for. Close the border and do the check before they enter the country. Other countries have done it. It is a bald faced lie that we can not do it here. We most certainly can do it here and could have done it long ago, ending the argument.

So why exactly have we not done it? Bush and Obama do not and did not want it. They want the border wide open for some reason, do they not? Why do you think they are against closing the border? What is your idea as to why they don't want to protect the country they rule?

Border closed, no more Illegals. Better for the real Immigrants, better for us, less victims of Illegals crimes, less victims of criminals who take advantage of the Illegals, less people in our prisons and no more purposefully allowing dangerous people to stay here.

Then make it easy for the honest decent people from Mexico who wish to come here to work to come here. Nearly everyone is for that. Except in the warped minds of the race card players who live in a propaganda fantasy world.

Originally posted by johnny2127
You don't agree with them checking to make sure someone is here legally.

That is not what I said, and we both know it. So please stop twisting my words and trying to pretend I did.

As much as you're going to hate to hear this, we need federal immigration reform to actually get illegals out of the country and to do it quickly. Individual states aren't going to be able to do it alone, they need the federal government and federal agencies help. Arizona isn't the only state with illegal immigrants, they just happen to be on the border and closer to the source of their problem. How would a state like Idaho deport people to Mexico without federal help? Drive them to the border themselves? Doubtful, and this is why federal assistance is necessary for any state to truly solve their illegal immigration problem

As for Arizona, as I've already said way back towards the beginning of the thread to someone else what needs to be done is for employers to be penalized so heavily for hiring illegals that they aren't willing to risk it. Hold them responsible for encouraging the problem and make it hurt when they get caught. If there's no work, there will be fewer illegals. This requires the e-verify program to actually work of course and for someone to start making the connection when a newborn's social security number show's up with arrest warrants and debt or on an employment application.

Stop giving illegals access to government programs. Check those social security numbers, find out when they were issued and to who, not just that they're not already in use by someone else. If an illegal immigrant shows up looking for welfare, deport them.

When illegals get arrested, fingerprint them and deport them. If they've committed murder, execution should be up as potential punishment for their crime. If they're sentenced to jail, let them spend their time in prison in their home country. Don't waste our taxpayer dollars feeding, clothing, and providing them with medical care while they take up space in our jails.

If they show up at the ER, patch them up and deport them. Don't turn them loose once their problem is fixed, send them back where they came from.

All of those are things the states can do. For the actual deporting, they're going to need federal help. But none of those options require a US citizen to prove that they are just because they look like they might be here illegally.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
So why exactly have we not done it? Bush and Obama do not and did not want it. They want the border wide open for some reason, do they not? Why do you think they are against closing the border? What is your idea as to why they don't want to protect the country they rule?

The claim is that it costs too much and requires more manpower than we have. Personally I think some of the taxpayer money being wasted on pet projects and earmarks could be diverted to closing the border and hiring more people to patrol. The border could be secured and the government could start spending responsibly again, two birds with one stone right there.

Why do I think they really won't do it? I'm sure part of it is the cost, hard to have money for something like this when you're busy making sure they have money for wood utilization research and other similar asinine earmarks. The rest of it is likely because it's hard to get the illegal immigrant vote if the illegals can't get in. And yes, before anyone asks, I do believe that illegal's vote. It's not hard to get registered, and all I have to do is show my license and tell them if they have the right address on their list before they hand me a ballot. If they can trick e-verify, they can get registered to vote.