Teapartiers: What an outrage!

Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by johnny2127
But you speak of hispanics here legally being the ones that would be upset, and I would beg to differ. I have many legal hispanic friends, and they are huge supporters of this.

Til they get harassed about proving they're citizens, then they'll sing a different tune. That's how it works. People don't care about rights getting violated unless it's their own rights.

Again, for someone to show proof of citizenship is reasonable to me. They don't detain then ask. They ask and then if something is fishy they detain.

How long do you think that'll last before it turns into "Hey, that guy's Hispanic and he's loitering. Bet he's illegal." "Well that woman over there is Hispanic and she sure isn't speaking English, I bet she's illegal too." This bill is wide open to abuse, and that to me is completely unacceptable.

So let me ask you, which violated rights are more severe: A) illegals murdering or kidnapping, sucking taxpayer dollars out of social programs; or B) An occasional US citizen being inconvenienced to show an ID

Inconvenienced? Citizen's getting their rights trampled is an inconvenience?

Good Lord my friend, you have a very interesting outlook on everything. You decide how legal hispanics will view things even though their stated opinion is different and you don't know them. You decide how police will enforce this law, even though the stated procedures and enforcement tactics are not what you outlined. Yes they can go up to a hispanic women and ask for an ID. No they cannot detain her if she has ID. Pretty simple.

Then you go on to state that US citizens rights are being TRAMPLED. Yes you use the word TRAMPLED because the police ask for an ID from them. It is a much greater violation of rights for the Federal Govt of state of AZ to allow illegals to continue to stream into the state and murder and kidnap people. This isn't a redux of the Patriot Act. This is making AZ safer WITHOUT violating rights. You act like they are just going to round people up and detain them without checking ID's. Good Lord talk about paranoid. Police ask for ID if you're speeding I.E. breaking the law. If they have reason to think you may be here illegally I.E. breaking the law, they will stop you and ask for ID. Calm down. Its easy and harmless. You aren't being violated.

Originally posted by prionace glauca

Originally posted by skunknuts

Originally posted by prionace glauca
Its about time someone finally reinforced the law. Now if we can get some law enforcement men more like Sheriff Arpaio. He knows how to stand up to people who are against true reform.

I knew you would be one to choose 'law and order' George Wallace style, over liberty and the constitution.

Best,
Skunknuts

Are we going to make this into another personal attack thread? Maybe I can mail you a constitution and the laws pertaining immigration even before this was signed. There is a reason why Sheriff Arpaio has been doing his job the way it should have been done by our federal authoritative bodies.

Boy, you ain't kidding. It doesn't take long to get the personal attacks going on here anymore, does it?

First of all, I would hesitate to use an uber-liberal source such as the Huffington Post to support an argument against something that Arizona is doing that is completely within the bounds of the law, and should have been done a long time ago. Illegal aliens in the southwest states are VOTERS to them, so of course they are going to be against it. Oh, you don't think illegals vote here? Think again.

Comparing Mexican illegals to Canadian immigrants is just nonsense. How often have you heard about an incident where a bunch of illegal Canadians were trying to get across the border stuffed in a secret compartment in a zamboni?

reply to post by johnny2127


OK, thanks for that. So now that I can do away with the license issue, I can move on back to the walking around my home town issue. Thanks for helping me keep my focus narrow.

reply to post by Afterall


You're right, I wasn't paying attention to who I was replying to. I will get to you're other question in a minute as this was easier to find and verify.

www.usillegalaliens.com...

Ignoring the "minor crime" such as ID theft and property crimes being committed by illegal aliens, here is a summary on some of the collateral damage reaped in crimes as a result of tolerating illegal aliens in the USA:

* In Los Angeles, 95% of some 1,500 outstanding warrants for homicides are for illegal aliens. About 67% of the 17,000 outstanding fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.
* There are currently over 400,000 unaccounted for illegal alien criminals with outstanding deportation orders. At least one fourth of these are hard core criminals.
* 80,000 to 100,000 illegal aliens who have been convicted of serious crimes are walking the streets. Based on studies they will commit an average of 13 serious crimes per perpetrator.
* Illegal aliens are involved in criminal activities at a rate that is 2-5 times their representative proportion of the population.
* In 1980, our Federal and state facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens but at the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in U.S. correctional facilities at a cost of about $6.8 billion per year.
* At least 4.5 million pounds of coc aine with a street value of at least $72 billion is smuggled across the southern border every year. ..
* 56% of illegal aliens charged with a reentry offense had previously been convicted on at least 5 prior occasions.
* Illegal aliens charged with unlawful reentry had the most extensive criminal histories. 90% had been previously arrested. Of those with a prior arrest, 50% had been arrested for violent or drug-related felonies.
* Illegal aliens commit between 700,000 to 1,289,000 or more crimes per year.
* Illegal aliens commit at least 2,158 murders each year – a number that represents three times greater participation than their proportion of the population.
* Illegal alien sexual predators commit an estimated 130,909 sexual crimes each year.
* There may be as many as 240,000 illegal alien sex offenders circulating throughout America. Based on studies, they will commit an average of 8 sex crimes per perpetrator before being caught.
* Nearly 63% of illegal alien sex offenders had been deported on another offense prior to committing the sex crime.
* Only 2% of the illegal alien sex offenders in one study had no history of criminal behavior, beyond crossing the border illegally.
* In Operation Predator, ICE arrested and deported 6,085 illegal alien pedophiles. Some studies suggest each pedophile molests average of 148 children. If so, that could be as many as 900,580 victims.
* Nobody knows how big the Sex Slave problem is but it is enormous.
* The very brutal MS-13 gang has over 15,000 members and associates in at least 115 different cliques in 33 states.
* The overall financial impact of illegal alien crimes is estimated at between $14.4 and $81 billion or more per year. Factor in the crime as a result of the coc aine and other drugs being smuggled in and the number may reach $150 billion per year.

Originally posted by Afterall

Originally posted by johnny2127
Do you realize that what you are up in arms about is that people have to carry proof of citizenship? Carry a drivers license, won't have a problem.

I have asked before and never got an answer so let me ask again. Where on my driver's license does it prove my citizenship?

This is a good point and definitely needs to be addressed here in NM. Illegals can get a NM driver's license. Can you believe that? And with a driver's license, they can VOTE. We really need a new Governor here who will do some things like AZ is doing with respect to illegal immigration. When AZ gets tough, the illegals will come across our border instead.

[edit on 21-4-2010 by AwakeinNM]

reply to post by digifanatic


That article is misleading. First it quotes Testimony of District Attorney John M. Morganelli before the House Subcommittee on immigration, Border, Security. Which is fine, but then goes on to add what you quoted.

Giving the illusion that that was part of his report. Meanwhile they haven't provided a source for said information.

Originally posted by digifanatic
reply to post by Afterall

 

You're right, I wasn't paying attention to who I was replying to.

I will get to you're other question in a minute as this was easier to find and verify.

No offense but that is completely useless. Aside from that fact that it cherry pics information from all over the place.

* Nobody knows how big the Sex Slave problem is but it is enormous.

Nobody knows....but we know it is enormous? What scientific study produces results like "enormous?"

I specifically asked because I want to see some real hard numbers that apply to the situation at hand and lists with statements like that really rub me the wrong way.

reply to post by grey580


Bad idea. If we do that we set a precendent that we are willing to overlook the law. More from Mexico will begin to stream into the U.S. believing that if the U.S. government forgave the offenses of their once-illegal brothers and sisters once, that the government will do it again. And will we? Where does it stop?

What if people from other impoverished nations decided that taking boats to the United States illegally was the way to go, in the hopes that our government would also forgive their offenses?

If so, we suddenly find ourselves with too many citizens and not enough jobs. The unemployment rate would skyrocket and welfare would most likely run out of money because of the sheer number of people who cannot find work. Remember, our government still has not addressed the problem of offshoring U.S. jobs because someone in the Phillipines or India can still do it cheaper than a Mexican immigrant living in Arizona can do it.

And if our government decided to make all of the illegal immigrants legal again and again and again??? Obama's health care plan which is funded on taxes? In order to be maintainable with the steady in-flow of now-legal immigrants those taxes would have to either be raised or the brackets lowered to include those in much lower income-classs brackets. It would be a huge nightmare of our own making for everyone.

[edit on 21-4-2010 by sos37]

reply to post by johnny2127


Yes, let's talk about verification for a minute.

Source

# Illegal immigrants are not “undocumented.” They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake “green cards,” and phony birth certificates.

# Most (98 percent) Social Security number (SSN) thieves use their own names with stolen numbers. The federal E-Verify program, now mandated in only 14 states, can detect this fraud. Universal, mandatory use of E-Verify would curb this and stop virtually 100 percent of child identity theft.

# In Arizona, 33 percent or all identity theft is job-related (as opposed to identity theft motivated simply by profit).

# Children are prime targets. In Arizona, it is estimated that over one million children are victims of identity theft. In Utah, 1,626 companies were found to be paying wages to the SSNs of children on public assistance under the age of 13. These individuals suffer very real and very serious consequences in their lives.

But Arizona uses E-Verify, you say. Yep, and it works so well.

Source

Two years after Arizona began requiring all employers to use a federal online program to ensure a legal workforce, a new study indicates that illegal workers are slipping through the system more than half of the time by using stolen identities.

Fifty-four percent of the illegal workers whose names were run through the program nationwide were wrongly found to be authorized to work, according to the report by Westat, a Maryland research company hired by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to evaluate the system, known as E-Verify.

Tell me again how this is going to work when illegal immigrants can get fake identification that tricks the very program set up to verify citizenship.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
When AZ gets tough, the illegals will come across our border instead.

That is my problem. Then what will NM do? Will they want to follow the model that worked so well for Arizona? If so and it works there too, then does it keep shifting or will the problem be solved once and for all.

See, my concerns are both that I do not want to have to travel to any state in my own country where anyone can demand to see my papers based on my appearance alone + I do not want this law spreading to where I already live.

The license thing was iffy for me. I knew illegals could get them in some places and non-citizens can certainly get them so I was not sure what the deal was with a license in Arizona.

Originally posted by johnny2127
Good Lord my friend, you have a very interesting outlook on everything.

It's not an interesting outlook, I just understand human nature. No one cares much about what happens to other people, they only care if it happens to them. Don't believe me? Pick a thread and read for awhile. You'll find plenty of posts that boil down to "So, what do I care they deserve it" when it's about someone else but if it's about something that affects that particular poster it's the worst thing ever to happen in the history of the world. It's sad, but it's true.

You act like they are just going to round people up and detain them without checking ID's.

Give it time. As open to abuse as that bill is, it won't take long for the harassment of legal citizens to start.

Originally posted by Afterall

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
When AZ gets tough, the illegals will come across our border instead.

That is my problem. Then what will NM do? Will they want to follow the model that worked so well for Arizona? If so and it works there too, then does it keep shifting or will the problem be solved once and for all.

See, my concerns are both that I do not want to have to travel to any state in my own country where anyone can demand to see my papers based on my appearance alone + I do not want this law spreading to where I already live.

The license thing was iffy for me. I knew illegals could get them in some places and non-citizens can certainly get them so I was not sure what the deal was with a license in Arizona.

The whole problem is a tough one and I don't know that anyone has the answer. The problem is, once they get in, they can pretty much do whatever they want unless they get caught committing a crime. Something has to be done to be able to determine someone's nationality. Asking for proof of citizenship is fine, but there has to be a system in place that is reliable and accurate. I'm afraid the next step will be a national ID, and THAT is what I have a problem with. Besides, A national ID will be no more resistant to fraud than current state licenses.

Originally posted by digifanatic
Personally, I don't see the problem here. The law in AZ is just fortifying the existing federal law into the state laws. I can't see them just "asking for papers" to everyone. That's ludicrous. I give my ID on traffic stops and just the act of having one says I'm legal. If the ID is fake, then there won't be any hits in the police database that their in car computers interface with. This is why illegal immigrant population has DECLINED 18% just in the past one year in AZ. I applaud them for actually upholding federal law since no one else will. I wish CA would adopt similar laws.

For the person who asked if one would have the same stance if this law was passed in WI, then I say I would have the same stance. Illegal immigration is just that, illegal and it doesn't matter where you come from.

Oh, and something else to chew on (this needs to be done again!):

Operation Wetback

I have seen plenty of illegal immigrants with drivers lisences and S.S. cards, just because you have one doesn't mean anything.

Originally posted by endisnighe

Originally posted by NightGypsy
reply to post by VintageEnvy

 

Arizona has been passing some weird things lately, I don't know whats going on down there all of a sudden but I'm staying away.

I was just gonna say the same thing.

I was going to say the exact opposite. Hell, they are going to back to the Constitution and enforcing our borders. Looking good!

Umm the original constitution doesn't say anything about the illegal immigrant problem...perhaps you read it again?

Originally posted by johnny2127

Originally posted by Afterall

Originally posted by digifanatic
reply to post by Afterall

 

When I got my CA ID, I had to provide a SSN and a birth certificate or SSN and a passport. When I got my CA DL a few years later, I had to provide either a birth certificate and SSN or a valid CA ID and SSN or a passport and SSN. Either way, I had to prove I was a citizen of the USA.

So you are trying to tell me that non-citizens such as people here on work visas can not get a legal US driver's license? I am fairly certain that Jenna has already pointed out that non-citizens can get a driver's license. Do you have any proof otherwise?

Well since we are talking about Arizona, why don't we look at their license requirements. Yep, an AZ license verifies that you are in the US legally, either as a resident or on a visa.

AZ Dept of Licensing

There are 5 states in the US that do not verify that you are in the US legally: Hawaii, Illinois, New Mexico, Utah and Washington. With a license from any of those states, your name can be checked with the national database and lawful status verified. Again, all very very easy.

No it's not quite as black and white as you think. You can't just check someone's name...you know how many aliases some illegal immigrants have? You have no idea how good the forgers have become at copying immigration documents. Often times forgeries are out at the same time NEW security documents are and they look authentic. You think the average worker in a DMV can tell the difference? Heh.

[edit on 4/21/2010 by Everwatcher33]

reply to post by Jenna


So tell me Jenna, what is Arizona's proper action here in your opinion? The Federal Govt won't help. You don't agree with them checking to make sure someone is here legally. So tell me what your solution is. To me it sounds like you're saying AZ should just shut up and take it. The state does have rights here. So I wonder what your solution is.

reply to post by Everwatcher33


You're right, but it can be checked to see if the DL/ID and S.S card are valid by looking you up in several databases that are maintained by the federal and state governments. DMV workers have access to these databases. When they put your info into their computer program, it checks all these databases in the background. And yes, it's quick to search in a database.

reply to post by skunknuts


when im a member of costco or some other membership based wholesale store, they require i prove i am a member by showing a membership card upon entry, theres no mandate after that.

they dont require me to buy specific products, or specific amounts of products, to participate in their system. only proof that i paid in and am rightfully able to enjoy all the benifits.

if i didnt have that proof of membership, i wouldnt be trying to enter the store, or even entertaining ideas of participating in anything associated with the store.

if a worker asks to see my membership while im in line, or in an isle shopping, or anywhere IN THE STORE, its the same as being asked upon entry, authorization to be IN THE STORE, everything after that like buying stuff and useing the bathroom is water under the bridge.

now if a worker asks me for something other than my costco membership, then that person is out of line. they dont need to know what im buying, what i plan on useing it for, what my birthday is, or what my favorite color is.

reply to post by digifanatic



No it's not always a quick search, and yes they can check names but the system sucks. Local DMV's in each state don't even connect with each other in some cases. I've seen the systems used for name checks they suck. There often isn't enough information to relate the information to the person you are looking at. You are right sometimes they will catch illegals, most of the time...they won't.


Not to mention you do know these databases are often incorrect and have a lot of errors because of the amount of people who can imput imformation in them right?

[edit on 4/21/2010 by Everwatcher33]

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
reply to post by digifanatic

 

No it's not always a quick search, and yes they can check names but the system sucks. Local DMV's in each state don't even connect with each other in some cases. I've seen the systems used for name checks they suck. There often isn't enough information to relate the information to the person you are looking at. You are right sometimes they will catch illegals, most of the time...they won't.

Well it sounds like even if 100% of what you say is true, some illegals will pass the check, but many still won't and will be caught and deported. Why is this bad?