Would it be so bad to be required to have a license to have a child?

reply to post by Unity_99


Indeed, these are things we must consider into our caculations.
However, I havn't stated my thoughts on licensing here because i'm not convinced this is a solution. I could easily see it becoming Draconian. And I agree, there is no magic wand to wave to make everything right. This is a very difficult issue here that is not black and white. So what do we do? The Op has offered an idea for food for thought. We ought all be thinking on this subject and brain storming. I'm not so sure myself what i'd recommend but the start seems to be in pausing and taking a look and thinking deeply.

In regards with your comment in looking within...that power is within everyone...but to look within is to begin an initiation into realizing one's trueself which is where true power lay through the Beloved by the grace of the Beloved and there are those, who do not want that and so they devise a trickster's scheme to keep the sleeping asleep yet the sleeping have a choice to awaken if they so choose and no power above or below can stop the one who recieves the chalice of Gnosis and the baptism of Mind. You are right when you say there are many obsticles, many doorways with noughty keepers. They seem so strong and powerful with awesome abilties, much seems hopeless and impossible, issues seem over whealming but that is the illusion of the trick which makes them so. It's like the dark dark night that's like an unyielding nightmare that has no end, but it does have an end.
The 'enemy' whether inner or outer cannot prevail unless you surrendor your will and self to the enemy and so it comes down to prevail or surrendor. For me, there can be no surrendor.

But I fear I may be wandering off topic though I think it is connected to these types of issues at hand.

I agree with you that Birth Control and Abortion are also not answeres to this topic and we have well seen that abstinence dosn't seem to do the trick (seems to go down to that whole problem of people being unwilling to control themselves). So what should we do that can be reasonable (not forgetting to factor in human nature)?

reply to post by Hardstepah


That you even ask the question just goes to prove how far society and it's people have fallen under rule.

Sickening. Absolutely sickening.

peace

[edit on 20-4-2010 by silo13]

I like the idea. The process would be similar to immigration into the country - because that's essentially what birth is.

You'd have to meet minimum poverty/income requirements for your family size, and sign legal statements (you can use a co-signer) that you won't create a burden on society that the tax payers have to pay for, etc.. etc.. show tax statements, have a background check done...

Welfare payments would not be given to people with unlicensed children. Period. This is would get rid of the incentive for people who just want the money, to have children.

Let's see.. if someone was discovered to have had an unlicensed child, what would happen. Of course, we'll probably institute a post-birth licensing program, again for a fee but this would most likely have to be finished in haste because the child would IMMEDIATELY be registered for foster care and adoption as soon as it was discovered, so that people who wanted children but can't have them would have a chance. In the mean time though, they are left up to the parents.

The absence of welfare and automatic registration to foster/adoption are the meat and potatoes, but wait there is more.

They'd probably get fined on some interval. Someone without money getting fined even more money would be more reinforcement to not have a child in their current conditions.

Can an unlicensed child go to public school? Not sure... Perhaps for them to go to school, the parents must pay an "unlicensed child" fee every quarter/year. This provides more reinforcement to not have a child if you are living in poverty.

What happens when you can't pay for any of this? Who did you expect to pay for your child? The taxpayers?

You'll probably resort to crime and either killed kill or arrested. Unlicensed children go to jail with their parents; they are still up for adoption/foster care.

We'll put out plenty of propaganda posters around low-income areas, kind of like the Somalian/African posters and whatnot with the starving kids. They'll show families that can't survive, children in jail with their parents and the caption "The American Dream".

The offset in welfare payments will certainly more than enough for the paltry community birth-control office to be put in place.

We could go as far as to moving couples with unlicensed children to "re-education work concentration camps."

There are plenty of pays to make people not have children.

A lot of people here speak of not bringing children into "such a world". We hear that all the time.

Well, just ask yourself what type of situation draws the line.

Originally posted by Thirty_Foot_Smurf
How about having a license for existence. What if the populations of the earth had to go in front of a committee and justify their existence every year or so. If you stop producing then you are eliminated. Would this also help eliminate social burdens?

Nice avatar dude, but yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I used to think a license to have children was a good idea, but I came to realize that it is just another false reaction to a problem. There are too many licenses needed as it is and it's contrary to small government and minimal control (which we do not have). The problem of fatherless children and unfit parents will not be remedied by a license as it does absolutely nothing to correct the root causes.

Great Post! S N F

Just like to add that this "WILL" become mandatory down the line so you are right on the money.

China, did not choose to enforce 1 child laws n such...

They were threatened by TPTB to enact such legislature

People need to be approved in order to finance a car or get a mortgage for a home...

Does not a child cost A LOT more than a car and over 18 years, probably, getting close to a small mortgage....

People should be "approved" to have children as it is a financial obligation

I would like to know where the hell these draconian and asinine posts are coming from.

How bout we the people set up a licensing scheme to allow government? How bout that?

Or how bout a license to allow ignorant individuals to open their mouths in public or on the internet?

I am sure most freedom loving people would not grant the OP a license.

How bout you draconian imbeciles leave the rest of society alone?

The people coming up with these asinine ideas are glaringly becoming to be seen, as an exact replica of the Lords and Kings of yesteryear. As others have stated, you and others like you are becoming the Nazis of today.

What are you going to do if the licensing agenda is sidestepped, going to set up some ovens?

I propose you get a sense of reality.


If you are a free human being you have the rights to reproduce. No matter who u are. You own your body.

Why would you give that right away to an authority that is known for egregious abuses of power?

You really need to get a grasp on history pal before you start thinking outloud.

The licensing thing its all been done. Its called a tax or surf or enslavement.

You are totally brainwashed removed of your humanity and so willing to hand your dignity over to the whims of a guy working for the government collecting a paycheck. That was stolen from you!

You might as well give me your money, and ill license you to live what do you say? I have a government hat and im sure we can find black helicopters with guns to make me look legit.

What is wrong with you people. Sick.

How bout i take 40% of your entire family's labor and hire goons in suits to terrorize you and pass redundant laws but its ok because we have a uniform that says police. Or irs.
Yeah you are defiantly not brain washed for sure!

Originally posted by Hardstepah
apologies to the mods if this is in the wrong forum but i figured this is a maddening political issue to me.

It is the wrong forum, because you question is right on the spot of a very important issue, but it's not an 'American' problem, or simply a political issue.

It is a global problem, which takes global solutions.

To all the stout defenders of individual freedom that posted in this thread, I'm a defender of my personal individual freedom as well, but in this case personal freedom needs to be overridden, because we are now in a situation in which this planet is grossly over-populated by humans, and if the masses cannot think and react for themselves then someone needs to think - and decide - for the masses, for the good of everyone.

Yesterday I watched a documentary on Afghanistan. A reporter interviewed a poor Afghan farmer who complained about his harsh life, about the war and various problems, but his main concern was that he had difficulties nourishing his family with what he was able to produce from his fields. Then he mentions, as a side-note, that he has 12 children. I do imagine it is difficult to nourish 12 children, especially if you're poor, something each and every person must think of before making children. I realize that various cultural and other factors play into the picture, but I also realize that the individual can't always see beyond those factors (that every person on this planet cannot add another 12 persons to the already present six billion) and think globally.

Therefore we need laws that take this into account.

It's kind of like speed limiting. It would be nice to be able to drive your car at any speed you like. But most people realize that speed maniacs would make the roads unsafe and threaten the lives of all those using the roads.

Therefore the better of the many overrides individual freedom.

Absolutely not! Who will be the one to set the standards? You, the govt, the religious nuts?? I do agree that there are people out there who shouldnt procreate but that should be their choice not the govts. The people of the world need to be more responsible!!! I know 6 people who are pregnant and I can only think of 1 of the 6 who is actually stable enough to have another kid right now. I mean do people not use protection anymore?!

Originally posted by mblahnikluver
Absolutely not! Who will be the one to set the standards? You, the govt, the religious nuts??

Our social structure mandate politicians to make political decisions, and the legislative apparatus to implement them, so why would it be any different in this case?

I suppose that in a country like Iran, where all types of democracy is absent, it would be the religious nuts.

reply to post by Hardstepah

I do totally agree in principle. You need a license (or be registered) to own a dog, but to have a child is alright. This is even if an Animal Welfare authority has previously removed an an animal from your care due to neglect. Go figure.

In Australia we have gone the other way and now reward people for popping out kids. This is one mistake (although good intentioned) of a government payment called 'the baby bonus'. The baby bonus was established a few years back to aid population growth. The payment equates to $5000 per child paid by instalment from birth, it used to be a lump sum. As you may know Australia has a majority ageing population, and it is fact that in a number of years (10 -15) retired/ elderly will out strip those in the workforce. Now this payment is biting us in the bum, teens are falling over themselves to have a baby to fund that new plasma. I know of people that have had a second to access the payment. Sorry I am getting off topic. The point I am trying to make is due to this incentive we have ferals breeding ferals. A feral is what you in the us call trailer trash.

So in short I have come to the opinion that no not everyone should be allowed to breed. The situation happening here means these kids are growing up with no stable role model, the parent/s are on government benefits, and fortunetly the child never really breaks from this cycle. So one payment to boost the active workforce will result on a greater burden for the tax paper funding the welfare for these kids when they hit adulthood.

I know I will be flamed for a blanket generalisation but I live near an area where we have second generation welfare recipients and are now breeding the third.

OZ

OKAY DAMN IT!

People are using welfare recipients to propegate their basis on this component. HOW BOUT PREFACING THIS on the inability of WELFARE.

You are attacking this on a symptomatic response. Who created this DAMN welfare system that has been created?

Ever think that JUST maybe they have created this CRAP?

I really find you people to be below contempt. When do you actually feel that someone should not be able to have REPRODUCTIVE rights? How bout if they are Muslim? Christian? Atheist? Home Schoolers? Individualists?

I find you REPULSIVE!

To those entertaining the idea that this is correct, and from whatever seat of judgement and justification youre currently occupying, please consider doing this;
For the next hour of your life, imagine having to apply for a license to do "whatever" it is youre about to do.
Every choice, great or small, apply for a license.
Surrender your ability to choose freely and move forward with your day, your life, in ALL of your actions, you are no longer intelligent enough to make a choice.
You will need to apply for a license to even have an idea, or an opinion,
and if your application is denied, you will ACCEPT the determination made by OTHERS and continue to SERVE.
It's nice that threads can be created such as this to discuss all the varying views and opinions.
I posted my reply freely, WITHOUT A LICENSE.
(yet!)

reply to post by Hardstepah


This would only be MAYBE legit at a State level (Tenth Amendment)and barely at that. While I DO support mandatory classes for expecting parents (people nowadays are just f'in stupid) I dont think I support a license.

A license means that you no longer have a right. You have privilege.

Yeah, I know. I have seen knuckle dragging trash that should have NEVER been allowed to muddle up the gene pool. thats a given. I've seen the same trash with 5000 kids and less parenting skills than my female German Shephard (she is an EXCELLENT mother btw-to puppies and human children ).

You NEVER give up rights. PERIOD. You will not get them back without a MAJOR fight (read that as war).

I have to agree to a point but the problems of the standards are endless.

First, there would have to be some sort of required birth control starting at a certain age. Lets say....if you dont get the birth control...you cant drive or rent or own period. So then we would be looking at starting children on birth control at around age 13? There would have to be some sort of forced issue because humans dont give a damn about a 'law' or 'rule' is there is not some sort of gain from following it. Even then, some dont care.

See, already we have rules that would cause havoc amongst the people.

Lets say that a requirement to be taken off of the birth control is that you at least become skilled in some form, mabey at least 2 years of college or complete a program of some sort. I would also add that a drug screening should be used over a period of time, say for like a year.

Why would such things be good? We already have more children without homes then we know what to do with. Many grow up with emotional issues due to their home enviroment as a child. I see it every day.

But isnt this communism?

Plus...I dont think we have a birth control that is that dependable to control the masses.

We should definitely have to have a license to walk the streets, as traffic is so complicated these days. How about a permit to make money? Not everyone should be allowed to work. Also, most importantly, nobody should be allowed to grow their own food without a license. How about having a license to live? Or to breathe (clean air is so scarce, we need to manage it, don't you think)?

I have a feeling I forgot something, there must be something else that we should require a license for. We are living in a civilized world, these things need to be regulated.

/end of sarcasm

We do not need a prison if it is already in our heads.

Ya know... I try to keep my temper, and be polite. I really do. But, I can't keep it capped for this one.

Eugenics sounds like a good idea, (and make no mistake, that's what you are proposing), and maybe, logically, it is. However, human beings can't handle such a thing responsibly. Part of the reason for this is that there are far too many power-tripping-self-righteous-finger-shakers out there seeking authority positions so that they can fulfill their own sick, emotional needs/fantasies by controlling the lives of others. People who take one glance at a situation and are so emotionally invested in their 'moral superiority', and 'intelligence' that they feel they can assess a situation they know nothing about, make assumption after assumption and pass it off as 'judgement', and then make decisions that will affect these people for the rest of their lives.

I don't know for sure if you are one of these, but this post sure sounds like one.

Originally posted by Hardstepah

look at our society these days. we have children being raised by, and these are just a few adjectives to describe the people raising our future; unintelligent, ignorant, racist, poor, lazy, freeloading morons.

everyday i drive through towns and cities and just see outlandish things that makes me sick to my stomach. such as...

i see a mother who isn't even old enough to drink with 3 kids. all 3 children have diapers only. no shoes, no shirts, no pants, NOTHING BUT A DIAPER. while her kids have nothing, she has her bootleg coach purse, her fake nails, her louis vaton shades that cover her entire face, and her hair done.

How do you know? I'm 33 and people still mistake me for a teenager. I'm small, and look young. When my daughter was little (and I was 24, and looked all of 12), if it was hot I would let her wear just a diaper. *gasp* In Public. (Oh no's! I'm raising a disaffected derelect.) Not to mention, she is on the autistic spectrum, and hated clothes, so I would make her comfortable if I could. If I was babysitting a passel of under-two crumb catchers in the heat... Guess what? They were in diapers too. (Aahhh! Western Civilization is crumbling! Oh the Humanity!)

So, I'm not worthy to reproduce in your estimation because I'm poor and had a naked baby... In the heat... With my nails done...? Are you kidding?

(Also, for the record... If you can peg genuine Louis Vaton shades on a drive/walk by, then maybe you are the one who needs your priorities checked.)

Originally posted by Hardstepahi work at a local video game shop and constantly get these idiotic gangbangers who come in with their 5 kids and talking to these 2-7 year olds like they were his "potnahs". "shut the f^&% up lil nigga".

Talking to your kid that way is wrong. However, I'm not so arrogant to think that this means these people shouldn't be reproducing.

Maybe (in my opinion), bad grammar, spelling, and syntax should be a disqualifier as well. (In that case, you're screwed... Or not... [ah ha ha], as the case may be.)

Originally posted by Hardstepahmy neighbor, she has 6 kids and has admittedly fraud welfare because she makes more then if she were to get a job and she "doesn't know what she's gonna do when her youngest turns 18". this woman has repeatedly asked me if i knew anybody who could score her some meth.

Drug user. Not cool. With kids... Grow some stones, and call the cops.

Then, maybe she'll get her head outta her butt. For the record... I'm a former meth addict. Over twelve years sober. *flips OP the bird* Stick that in your little pipe and smoke it.

Originally posted by Hardstepahbut again that's just my opinion.

Thank god that's all it is.

Even a former junkie like me, is far worthier of reproducing than one more run-of-the-mill-soap-boxing-sh**-bag will ever be.

But again, that's just my opinion.

How about we get rid of welfare programs instead of licencing parents.

This way you don't have to worry about feeding some crack addicts 30 kids with your tax dollars, because the crack addict will not have 30 kids.

Why won't she have 30 kids? Because when you take away the welfare incentive, she will no longer go out and get herself pregnant by 50 dads.

This is a much simpler solution to the problem.

Yes, it would.

I would like to point out that as a female, we have a limit use window for fertility.

Much of that window is when we are legitimately too young to have children. Much of it is before chronic physical and mental health issues would show up. The other part happens while we are still in a time period of proving ourselves out.

If we had to apply for a license based on factors that could be measured about our responsibility and abilities as an adult, it would significantly eat into our fertile window.

This being the case, any license we would have would need to probably come from factors of our parents.

Making a decision about me based on my parents would have been a grave mistake.

The other possibility would be to limit licensing to men, where the men have to prove out that they are capable to dealing with any issues that crop up from "their" women turning out to not be as "pristine." Meaning that you would be inflicting a case where men of older years would inevitably "own" the ferility rights of young women.

This doesn't even address that a "licensing fertility" scheme essentially says that society OWNS women, and that society CONFERS ownership of fertile women to men of some societal stature.

This is just the BEGINNING of the problems inherent in a licensing scheme for fertility.

I could come up with more. If these ones don't make you want to vomit.

[edit on 2010/4/20 by Aeons]

In my opinion, we are already in danger of having a homogeneous population. Uniform, cut and oh so clean, middle class, apple pie and mean.

DFCS standing there to intimidate and ensure that families live within some 'this is the way things are done' norm....schools set to process all children from 5, after the pre-schools are done with them.
Think like this, not that. We won't say it, but you'll know it.

And then we find ourselves in a political system that is not working for us, and yet we can't seem to break free. A 3rd party? That's not the way things are DONE! **We** do it this way, because that is the homogeneous oh so white milk way. And it's good for you!

WTF does everyone worry so much about what's good for them? And all the hand wringing "BUT THE CHILDREN!" We'll go to war and kill a million children, cut off a million legs, because of some middle class homogeneous woman here in the US standing there wringing her hands worrying about some children she's never laid eyes on.

Really, it all makes me sick. I think the homogeneous white milk has infection all in it because of the crap they are feeding us.