Crop Circles, 2010 & Beyond: Ignore Denial?

reply to post by zaiger

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Zaiger,

Thanks for your contributions so far.

Originally posted by Zaiger

"You have yet to contribute anything"

- circlemakers.org

That's all you've added here.

If you feel you have a point,
that's fine with me.

I have responded to you.

I know what I said, why I said it
and I have clarified.

No need to go round in circles.

I have voiced my opinion
and I'm not here to spoon-feed
anyone so-called "facts"
from behind my desk-top.

You and anyone else here
already knows how to access
the mother of all 'sources':

www.google.com

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reply to post by Sol12


So, nothing? You do not have anything?
you know
hitting
return does not
make your
post look
longer
than
it
is.

Hi all! Where are the crop circles. It's April 21st, 2010 already.
Isn't it curious that there are no crop circles yet this year?

reply to post by wmd_2008


Then why did you say it was done by humans? You provided it as an example of a "complex" circles created by humans.

Perhaps the Irc guys really just aren't that good.

reply to post by zaiger

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Zaiger,

I wrote:

Originally posted by Sol12

"No need to go round in circles."

You responded:

Originally posted by Zaiger

"So, nothing? You do not have anything? "

Well, as you insist,
I will go circular on you once.

Some people state that the crop circle phenomenon
is of down to earth man-made origin claiming that all crop circles
would be man-made while offering nothing to back up that claim?

A very poor appeal to "basic common sense"
is all that is being offered.

I am a non-believer regarding the, as yet,
unsubstantiated claim that all crop circles would be man-made.

One of your claims:

Originally posted by Zaiger

"people who believe that they are not man made make claims
with nothing to back them up while people like me like specifics"

I did not post a thread proclaiming: "ETs make CCs: ((( *PROOF* ))) !!!"

Next to stating my personal opinion, all I've been saying basically
is that the as yet unexplained crop circle phenomenon deserves a fair debate.

I have explicitly stated the following:

Originally posted by Sol12

"The interesting fact regarding the crop circle debate is
that neither the 'believers' nor the 'non-believers' find themselves
in a position to make a solid case regarding their convictions"

Now, we take another look at one of your claims:

Originally posted by Zaiger

"people who believe that they are not man made make claims
with nothing to back them up while people like me like specifics"

Now, let's take another look at your "specifics":

- circlemakers.org

If you feel that circlemakers.org is really all that important
to (ending) the crop circle debate, why aren't you making a nice video,
write down a few words and start a thread?

Suggestion for a thread title:

- "I am a circlemakers.org Believer: Here Is Why".

One pertinent question remains:

Why would you, or any other of the 'non-believers' here
waste your time on "another one of those CC threads"
regarding a supposed 'non-subject' which you consider..

..explained and 'debunked'?

Let me repeat some of my specifics:


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6a273a89346f.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/249c225162fc.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/196af8a19766.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/30d2a1e06817.jpg[/atsimg]


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reply to post by wmd_2008

...

You wrote:

Originally posted by wmd_2008

"To believe the world is different from what we are told we want EVIDENCE.."

And I responded:

Originally posted by Sol12

Who is telling you the world is as we are being told?

Could you perhaps provide a link to the place
where we can find evidence that the world
is indeed as we are being told?

How would a medieval monk respond
were I able to ask him similar questions?

He would probably tell me that asking questions
is a sign of lack of faith and take me straight to an exorcist.

Now, let me ask you this:

How would you prove to the blind that the world exists
and that it exists as a Planet within a Solar System
exactly in the way as you are telling them?

A mere appeal to "basic common sense"
would hardly be convincing?

Posting smilies would be rather pointless.

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The typical interweb crop circle debate:

...

poster a: All crop circles are man-made.

poster b: Can you prove it?

poster a: I don't need to, it's called basic common sense.

poster b: Is that all you've got?

poster a: No, my cousin's friend has a stepsister who has an uncle with a PC computer
and he showed it to my cousin on the interweb how someone is making one.

poster b: LoL!




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reply to post by Sol12

Some people state that the crop circle phenomenon
is of down to earth man-made origin claiming that all crop circles
would be man-made while offering nothing to back up that claim?

No we have

evidence of some crop

circles being man made, there is no

evidence of crop circles comming from

ufos.

A very poor appeal to "basic common sense"
is all that is being offered.

It is not

illogical to think that

crop circles are man made

I do not see the logic in thinking

that UFOs make them when there is no evidence to back

that up

Now, let's take another look at your "specifics":

- circlemakers.org

Did you read the links?

There are many


crop circles on there that show them

making it.

Let me repeat some of my specifics:

Specifics, where is that from? when was it made?

reply to post by zaiger

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Originally posted by Zaiger

"Specifics, where is that from? when was it made?"

Educate yourself:

www.google.com

You're right,

It always ends like this doesn't it?

Or is that maybe where it should all start?

First two pics:

2002-07-18- Windmill Hill Avebury Trusloe Wiltshire UK.

Last two pics:

2000-07-22- Knoll Down Avebury Trusloe Wiltshire UK.

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reply to post by Sol12


The appeal to common sense which the human explanation is based on is not as weak as you make it sound. We know for a fact that making crop circles is something that human beings do. We don't know for a fact that making crop circles is something that ETs do. Until we have some evidence for ETs, we have no reason to propose that as an additional explanation for some crop circles. In fact, there is no reason to propose any additional explanations until we have some evidence which cannot be accounted for by the human explanation. Impressive complexity is not that evidence.

A good analogy is magicians. We know for a fact that there are magic tricks. We don't know for a fact that there is real magic. When a magician does his tricks, you can probably explain a few of them and not others. Is there evidence here for real magic being done? Does anyone propose that some of the magic is real, when they know for sure that some of it is trickery? Even if some of the tricks are very impressive, and you can't immediately explain how they're done, you are not likely to accept that these tricks are actually genuine magic. It's probably all tricks.

For both magic tricks and crop circles, there is a simple explanation which we know explains some of the cases. There is uncertainly about the remaining cases. However, it's really not sensible to appeal to a very complex explanation for those mysterious cases, until you can absolutely rule out the simple explanation.

reply to post by Sol12


Got any links to that info? Im having a hard time finding those cropcircles for those dates.

reply to post by Sol12


Could you answer why crop circles are much more intricately designed than they were when they first started appearing in England in the early seventies? Why have they gradually got better and better?

My guess is it's not aliens, just human beings with the aid of GPS and better communication, who have simply got more advanced over the years at making them.

Originally posted by zaiger
reply to post by Sol12

 

Why are crop circles ever discovered in remote locations?

[edit on 16-4-2010 by zaiger]

because they are crop circles?? created in crops!! usually on farm land....which to the best of my knowledge is in a remote location.

but thats not the answer to your question...your question is actually wrong because not all CC's are located in remote locations...some are found on farm land very close to populated areas. research

Originally posted by Reign02
crop circles are man made people..... Do some research and open your mind to other possiblities. The whole thing started with two dudes in England that used 2x4s and a rope.... It takes up to 3-4 hours to do some of the most elaborate ones......
here is a wikilink en.wikipedia.org...
look up somemore info....

have you seen some of the more "elaborate designs"? they are HUGE and VERY COMPLEX. do you have a method or explanation as to how a person...or group of people can complete these crop circles within a few hours, at night, without being seen...even if you could draw some of those designs on paper imagine how much planning is needed to scale up and plant that design into crops (without breaking the crop).

and how does a 2x4 on some rope make those intricate patterns that are INSIDE of circles...those photos in the OP can not be made with a 2x4.

and using wikipedia as a resource is terrible...anyone can change wikipedia to say anything.

reply to post by frugal


Simple! Weather in N. Hemisphere is 3 weeks behind after long cold Winter. I'm on French/Spanish border, still 3 weeks behind.

mclinking

reply to post by OnceReturned

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OnceReturned,

Originally posted by OnceReturned

"The appeal to common sense which the human explanation is based on
is not as weak as you make it sound."

Do we all master our senses to the same extent?

No doubt, it does make sense to hold on to common sense,
as a starting point that is, without overdoing it.

A mere appeal to 'basic common sense' does not qualify as Science.

It does not answer any questions.

Merely looking at the wheat in a CC field
is not providing a lot of answers.

Some are man-made, most are in fact not known to be man-made.

That's about it.

No one denies that CCs can't be really appearing just "out of the blue".

There must be an explanation, and here is where common sense
comes in again, begging for some logical answers.

Fact is, there is a wider context available; 60+ years of controversy
and related documentation regarding visiting extra-terrestrials and UFOs.

Additional context and evidence can be obtained
by studying Myth, Philosophy, Art, Science and Religion.

Why are crop circles mainly discussed at UFO/fringe forums
and not at, let's say, agricultural or Art forums?

There is also another interesting and closely related controversy
regarding new technology concerning electromagnetism.

My conviction is that the answers to the UFO/ET/CC phenomenon
can be found by applying knowledge related to electromagnetism.

It is probably no coincidence that this particular field of science
is rather controversial.

It relates to the more subtle qualities of matter.

What is 'magic'?

I don't believe in 'magic' nor in so-called 'miracles'.

There is only Nature and Science.

Let's say, some people/Saints/ETs know how to reach beyond the perimeter
of contemporary accepted Science as limited by convention, fashion
and mere imperfect knowledge, to some then, it would appear as if
they were 'magicians' or 'miracle' workers.

To me, it would mean that they are greater masters of Science.

What today qualifies as Science, during the dark ages
was considered 'magic' and 'work of the devil'.

Obviously, tricks and illusion isn't 'magic' either.

Ed Leedskalnin has tried to point out
that both Magnetism and Love relate
to the secret of the Universe.

He managed to build Coral Castle all by himself.

Was he a 'magician' or a greater master of Science?


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e6524db648e8.jpg[/atsimg]

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[edit on 23-4-2010 by Sol12]

reply to post by thesneakiod


Humans, you say. Okay. But why? Since mass media has lost interest in crop circles, what's the point in humans making them? For what purpose since they're supposed to have been debunked? And then these circles appear all over the place, not just one point. If they're all supposed to be hoaxes, who is coordinating their construction? Why do the military helicopter crew and police keep confiscating cameras from observers? Quite frankly, if TPTB want people to forget about crop circles, why keep making them? Obviously, TPTB CANNOT make them. Take it from there. Whoever it is, whether aliens or gods, we do NOT know. Theories are not reality. For instance, I could say we're all having a collective dream and one day will wake up to find all this never happened.

mclinking

reply to post by thesneakiod

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thesneakiod,

Originally posted by thesneakiod

"Could you answer why crop circles are much more intricately designed
than they were when they first started appearing in England in the early seventies?
Why have they gradually got better and better?"

When seen from my point of view, namely, that extra-terrestrials seek
to make their presence known in a gradual, delicate and non-intrusive way,
it would make sense.

What it indicates to me, is that those who are responsible
for creating crop circles evidently are highly intelligent and sophisticated.

Maybe, pointing out to this, could be one motivation for
the gradual change and varying complexity of crop circles.

Some people will argue that they merely got better
because Earthlings have invented GPS.

Even if taking into account the use of GPS, there are many other
complexities relating to the logistics of creating a work of Art
in a field of wheat which would have to be explained.

What about the motivation for doing it while
seldom anyone is ever making a claim for fame?

There are several decades of related unexplained issues.

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I think, for the most part, the majority or rational thinkers here, those of us that actually use logic, reason and common sense in our daily lives....we fully understand there is no point debating the crop circle fantasy with true believers.

When it comes to crop circles, the term Deny Ignorance can't emphasized enough. Unfortunately, those that desire to believe in their supernatural or otherworldly explanations can't possibly have an actual debate concerning the subject...as evidenced by this very thread.

Don't kill the messenger guys.

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts


Yeah it is like pulling teeth with these guys to get a single link to any information about their claims. Everyone is supposed to accept their broad generalities at face value. And im not saying an argument for them being aliens cannot be made but the argument that is made is poor.
"crop circles are made by aliens, yeah some are man made but the rest are made by aliens"
The same logic could be used for anything and still not hold water.
"some bank robbers have been caught but the others must be aliens"