Crop Circles, 2010 & Beyond: Ignore Denial?

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts

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Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts

"When it comes to crop circles, the term Deny Ignorance can't be emphasized enough."

Thanks for your thoughts,
IgnoreTheFacts.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a09fff1b75cb.jpg[/atsimg]

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Don't worry sol12 it all makes sense to me now i believe.

ALL you guys who think ALL crop circles are man made are not DENYING IGNORANCE. There is too much to deny that aliens in fact create them. How can you explain crop circles that appear in 30 mins? What about all the radiation? How would crop circle artists create a radioactive field around a crop circle that could not be replicated with modern technology? What about all the videos of UFOs making crop circles? How can you explain that crop circles are so complex that nobody could ever make them.

[edit on 23-4-2010 by zaiger]

reply to post by zaiger


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Originally posted by Zaiger

"Don't worry sol12 it all makes sense to me now i believe. "

That's great to hear Zaiger.

I admit, I can't prove to you
that I'm not convinced.

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Originally posted by zaiger
Don't worry sol12 it all makes sense to me now i believe.

ALL you guys who think ALL crop circles are man made are not DENYING IGNORANCE. There is too much to deny that aliens in fact create them. How can you explain crop circles that appear in 30 mins? What about all the radiation? How would crop circle artists create a radioactive field around a crop circle that could not be replicated with modern technology? What about all the videos of UFOs making crop circles? How can you explain that crop circles are so complex that nobody could ever make them.

[edit on 23-4-2010 by zaiger]

Here is a crop circle that appears in seconds made by orb's

www.youtube.com...

OH wait it's a hoax

I seriously will never understand why some people get so emotional over this subject. Mainly because from the believers side of things, theres barely anything there that consitutes a theory.

I think its a load of bs personally, but I always read crop circle threads in the hope that one day someone will be able to come with an alien based explanation that makes the slightest bit of sense. It hasnt happened yet, and I doubt it ever will.

Generally the (extremely vague) idea seems to be these things are messages/warning for us. Which is all well and good, but can people please consider the following issues, without whacking out the 'oh maybe we just arent clever enough to understand them' card. Which in itself is a contradiction because why send messages we dont understand ;

1. How does the Government fit into all of this? If you believe these are messages then surely we cant already be in contact with them?
2. Why, why, whyyyyy would this method of contact be suitable over the many other types of communication?
3. If these are messages.. we clearly arent understanding them. So why would a supposedly intelligent alien race carry on communicating such complex messages?
4. If you believe they are warnings/predictions, then considering how many, and how long these have been occuring, wouldnt you think that at least one crop circle would have come to something by now?
5. Do people not find it strange that although there are certain places in the UK where crop circles appear frequently, there's been no real effort to capture any footage of these things being made? Maybe those cropcircleconnector guys should consider spending less on helicopters to take nice pictures of them, and more on some real research..

If there's any other new theories floating about though Id love to hear them. I wonder if anyone can beat one I saw last year where someone was claiming that crop circles were actually 4th density beings who had become stuck here, and were sending SOS messages in the form of crop circles.

reply to post by Bluebelle

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Bluebelle,

Thanks for pointing out that indeed the CC debate
is being buried in ridicule, so it seems, by the 'CC community' itself.

We have a great example of this, right here at this thread,
as testified by the contributions of ex-ATS member judge360.

Could it be that all those wild speculations about so-called 'impending comets',
and so on, are merely being fed to the 'ignorant' to keep us endlessly speculating
about the next far-fetched theory, for ever and ever, going round in circles,
without ever getting to the point of it all?

How come in UFO-land there are only very few facts available,
nonetheless, there is an army of self-proclaimed 'specialists'?

How can anyone be considered a 'specialist'
when hardly any solid facts are available to specialize in?

'UFOlogy', for most part, is mere fiction and speculation.

The actual available tangible hard fact:

- The crop circle phenomenon.

The CC phenomenon is either being ignored by the 'UFO community'
or it is being buried in ridicule by the 'CC community'.

Why is that?

Never mind the MSM who is obviously not interested in a fair debate
regarding extra-terrestrials, UFOs and crop circles.

As far as the "method of contact" is concerned:

What makes you so sure that ET has not communicated
in other ways already with our so-called representatives
and the science community?

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Originally posted by Sol12
reply to post by thesneakiod

 

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thesneakiod,

Originally posted by thesneakiod

"Could you answer why crop circles are much more intricately designed
than they were when they first started appearing in England in the early seventies?
Why have they gradually got better and better?"

When seen from my point of view, namely, that extra-terrestrials seek
to make their presence known in a gradual, delicate and non-intrusive way,
it would make sense.

Surely your joking. What difference would it have been if aliens made a complex design first off instead of a basic one?

What it indicates to me, is that those who are responsible
for creating crop circles evidently are highly intelligent and sophisticated.

Yeh mainly computer programmers, or anyone with a good understanding of logistics and a vivid imagination.

What about the motivation for doing it while
seldom anyone is ever making a claim for fame?

There are several decades of related unexplained issues.

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Not really. The only unexplained issues are why do aliens only ever use the corner of a field? why not use the whole of it? And why stop there, why not use other surfaces to put their obscure messages across, like a football pitch or in a park or burn it into concrete. They could even put a message in the sky for all to see.


I think your not giving humans enough credit here. Humans have admitted to doing them, humans have been filmed making them.

There's not one smidgen of evidence to even suggest that aliens create them.

[edit on Saturday20102010-04-24T18:52:03-05:00pm305220104 by thesneakiod]

Well I'm emotional because todaysa-the-day! Even if it's humans why are they taking so long this year out of the last 3? Grrr I agree to the above though, if only they would use a plethora of fields for one crop circle, that would be immense!

[edit on 24-4-2010 by markymint]

I am a little flustered and overwhelmed by this topic, there seems to be a lot of bickering going on here regarding the case. It is sad to see skeptics and believers go at it, they are both so close-minded that they can't just join forces and accept the fact that there are two sides to every story.

The skeptics side of the story is shaky. Alot of people have been saying "man-made" then supply videos, gif images, interviews, etc. The complexity of the objects is not something to argue, there are NO LIMITS to what man and artistry can do. Did anyone ever see a Salvador Dali painting?



Incredible. It's pieces of art such as this that make me certain man can accomplish any such complex patterns he/she can imagine. The argument here lies: How are these circles made in shorter than a day? I think some need to hone up to their intuition and admit that some of the more conspicuous and advanced circles made in a day are puzzling, and couldn't be simply created by a few bimbos with 2x4s. that is just as ABSURD as UFOs coming down and making them. It is a horrible argument to state "well, a bunch of people have admitted to doing them soooo, yeah, DEBUNKED." Really? With all the faked UFO cases and GHOST cases, are we at liberty to say that all of those are debunked as well because a few people took liberty upon themselves to "play paranormal"? So shameful, especially for a community like this! Alot of you steer away from the scientific evidence and lean on the "dudes with 2x4s" argument. The basic patterns, etc, they can be ruled out as man-made. The ones that come up overnight? those need to be looked into more.

The believers are at fault as well. You can somewhat tell that a lot of these patterns are thought up by circlers to make them look "alien-like" to our best knowledge of what we believe "alien-like" would look like. The crop circle with the actual picture depicting a grey is awesome! It is either a piece of art, or a disinfo trip to make people think that they are all jokes. The believers need to stop leaning on the complexity argument, it's weak guys. Stop posting gifs and say "humans couldn't have done this lol" because we all know they can, it's the time-frame that can be argued over. If I were a firm believer, I would start finding cases that have the following:

1. Proof it was made overnight.
2. A large complex pattern that is not immediately recognizable as a usual human pattern or human trying to make an "alien-like" pattern.
3. Proof of abnormal scientific activity and strange node behaviours on the stalks.
4. Consistence in form over hills and valleys.

Until believers present me with a documented case of the preceding credentials mentioned, then i'm going to stay objective and look onto both sides with this one. No, a gif image of a crazy pattern won't fool me, and a man saying he's done a few circles with his friends won't convince we likewise.

Oh and whoever posted that Credo Mutawa quote, be careful, hes a very tricky character in the paranormal community. Dealings with David Icke, etc. I'm definitely not quick to believe his off-the-wall stories. I watched a conspiracy documentary that showed a circler laughing at Icke because he was meditating in a circle that the circler himself has created! hahaha.

Honestly I think in the end, we need a firm case with a pattern unfamiliar to us. Could someone point me to some circles that have equations? I think there was a topic here awhile ago that showed a complex equation or schematics in a crop circle.

Anyways, one final word, keep an open mind people! Not in the new age David Icke kind of way, not in the NWO is after us kind of way, and certainly not in the "down-to-earth" logical way but in a way to see that there are TWO SIDES to every argument! and you should take both into consideration, not just close into a bubble on your own side.

[edit on 26-4-2010 by LiberLegit]

reply to post by mclinking


Thanks for that! Here in the deep south USA it is 90 plus degrees, 6-7 months of the year. We tend to forget what everybody else's weather is. It is a special day if it rains here. We got one 12 hour snow day of seven inchesthis winter, a first snow in seven years. No snow otherwise.
It's the 30th of April still waiting to see the crop art/ message.

First I wish to say hello to all people on ATS forum.

I can't make a new thread since i don't have enough posts, so I'm gonna put it here. On this site you can find a video of unexplained beam of light that was captured on the night of 2nd/3rd of May 2010 - using night vision goggles in east field Wiltshire:

www.cropcirclewisdom.com...

I think this was not posted here?

Opinions?

6 months into 2010 and theres only been about 3 Crop Circles in the UK so far? is this year lagging behind somewhat? or is the bumper season generally towards the latter months when the harvest is at its peak around August?

Originally posted by Sol12
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The typical interweb crop circle debate:

Hi Sol. Nice to see you still as passionate as ever about a subject we have both spent time discussing.

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poster a: All crop circles are man-made.

This is a hypothesis. "all crop circles are man made".
It is based on observed evidence. That evidence includes the fact Humans exist, they make crop circles, there are groups of humans that make them, are documented making them, there are groups of humans that profit from them. CC's have human imagery, philosophy or mathematical or geometric inspirations or imagery all known to humans.
Humans have a long and documented history of creating and believing "myths".

poster b: Can you prove it?

Yes. I can prove humans make crop circles. The hypothesis that human make them all is totally based on evidence.

People seem to expect that others need to prove that each and every circle was man made in order to rule out other explanations.
If you would like to claim that some CC's are not man made, simply show me something making CC's that is not human.
Then I can included it as a real explanation that exists and not one that is assumed or imagined or injected as a possible explanation.
Is that unreasonable?

The notion that I or anyone else would have to prove that every single CC is made by humans in order to prove that something else(Aliens or BOL's or whatever) is not making them, is quite frankly absurd.
I don't mean to be rude Sol. But it is. It seems that because You cannot show anything else non human, ever, in the entire history of CC's making them that you need to rely on an argument that we cannot show every single CC being physically made by humans.

If you claim that something else is making them.
Simply show it, making CC's.
It is that simple.

poster a: I don't need to, it's called basic common sense.

It has nothing to do with what is common or what people "sense" about CC's. It is based on evidence. Lots of evidence.

poster b: Is that all you've got?

Yes, we have got lots of evidence supporting the hypothesis that humans make CC's and that humans are making them all.

poster a: No, my cousin's friend has a stepsister who has an uncle with a PC computer
and he showed it to my cousin on the interweb how someone is making one.

Lets not forget that, even if this is as lame as our argument gets, this is far more than You have. Period.

poster b: LoL!

The fact that you need to ridicule this argument: That all CC's are man made, rather then simply show the evidence you have that supports your belief and refutes the hypothesis, speaks volumes.

You simply don't have any evidence. You cannot show any other cause fro CC's.

Can I ask you a question though?

Why do you think CC's are made by Aliens?

Is it because you accept the claims that CC's appear relatively quickly?
If so, why are these "claims" any more significant then the plethora of "claims" associated with the vast array of paranormal or religious "claims" right across the spectrum.
By this I mean, we have a long history of creating supernatural or mythical events or scenarios. Big Foot, Lochness, People saw Elvis for decades, religious claims and visions, there are many, many claims around statues weeping or bleeding etc.
So in that context and considering the long history humans have with mystifying events, why are crop circles and the claims associated with them any different?

IS it an appeal to the complexity of CC's?

IF so, how do you explain the steady progression in CC's from simple to complex?
How do you explain the evolution of the interpretations?
In the earliest CC's people claimed they were simple impressions from UFO that landed in fields. Now we have them being really complex and related to contemporary issues associated with new age mysticism like 2012, Galactic and Planetary alignments, human evolution( ascension, homo luminous etc).

Do you believe they are created by aliens based on the "scientific" claims surround "anomalies"?
If so, are you familiar with ALL the criticism surround these claims. Node anomalies, magnetic claims, radiation etc. BLT, Haselhoff et al. All make claims yet cannot show any other cause. They admit making assumptions and injecting causes without any evidence to support the massive assumptions.

And further more, why have there only ever been 3 papers published in 20 years?

Yet in that time we have hundreds of experts telling us exactly what these circles means, and that they also claim that it is impossible that they were man made.
But they only ever do that with DVD's, Subscription Websites, Lectures, Conferences, Crop Circle Tours, Documentaries, Books, T-shirts, calenders..........
You get the picture.
Yet all these "experts" haven't been able to organize real studies to support their claims?
3 in 20 years.



One of the most important unknowns regarding CC's, is who is actually making them.
Because this effects the meaning, the messages in an enormous way.
Which is why CC's need to have mystery.
Otherwise, if they are Man made, the meaning changes dramatically.

Look at videos and websites or some of the many CC movies, "experts" and researchers and you will see that they have one thing besides the crop circles in common.
And that is that they have a message or a philosophy that they claim is "from" or is inspired from these CC's. That somehow there is a deep meaning and great importance and relevance to these CC's. That they may hold the meaning to our existence, or keys to our future or instructions for only those brave enough to listen. But, they need CC to be mysterious in order to make this valid or imbued with a supernatural authority far superior to us mere humans.

But it is the reverse, they have created the CC phenomena in order to infuse it with a religious belief. They don't actually create mystery, they create doubt about the CC's origin.
That is why they need to spread doubt about the Human cause of CC's.

And when there is doubt they can insert a suggestion or a possible answer. Mystery/Aliens.
That is why the majority of crop circle experts and researchers and movie makers will constantly site that it is impossible for man to be making them, all the while spreading "mysterious" anomalies or "eyewitness testimony" etc etc.
Yet in the 20 odd years of CC making, no other source ever, in the entire history of CC has been shown. Other than Us. Not one ever!

Just plenty of people telling us how impossible it is for humans to be doing it without ever showing us another possibility that is real.

Originally posted by zaiger
reply to post by Sol12

 

Can you pick out man made vs. "real" alien ones?


[edit on 16-4-2010 by zaiger]

yes, there are differences between manmade and "paranormal" crop circles.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 10-6-2010 by Psychiatrium]

reply to post by Psychiatrium


I suggest you read the whole thread that you linked. The material presented in that thread is not evidence that anomalies exist.

Originally posted by Psychiatrium

Originally posted by zaiger
reply to post by Sol12

 

Can you pick out man made vs. "real" alien ones?


[edit on 16-4-2010 by zaiger]

yes, there are differences between manmade and "paranormal" crop circles.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 10-6-2010 by Psychiatrium]

Yes but if you look at the link that the material was sourced from it just says.

The physical changes (listed below) documented in crop circle plants by Michigan biophysicist W.C. Levengood have been determined by evaluating hundreds of sample plants -- both downed and standing -- taken from inside the overall perimeter of each formation against hundreds of control plants taken at varying distances outside each formation, in several directions. More than 250 individual crop formations from multiple countries, over a 10-year period were examined in-depth. Although many of the formations studied were relatively "simple" in overall design and/or relatively "small" in overall size (primarily because of BLT's financial and/or personnel limitations, particularly in Europe), many larger and more "complex" formations -- those whose overall design included intricate geometric shapes with multiple design elements of varying sizes -- are represented here.

Many of the formations occurred in European countries and, in those cases, the plants were dried-down in open air for 4-6 weeks prior to shipping to the U.S. Some of the U.S. and Canadian formations were shipped while still green. The physical changes found in these crop circle plants, outlined below, have all been determined to be statistically significant at the 95% level of confidence:
www.bltresearch.com...

In other words they got a whole bunch of data from crop circles and not all of the plants were bent the same. Please not that it shares no specifics like
"This abnormal plant came from a crop circle in east susex in 1974"
It is just more of the same dribble. A very broad claim cloaked with makeshift science.

reply to post by Bluebelle

1. How does the Government fit into all of this? If you believe these are messages then surely we cant already be in contact with them?

I'm not sure I believe they are messages - or intrinsically linked with aliens. Furthermore - I think it's somewhat dangerous to jump to the conclusion that they are intended for us - we just happen to live here, which may be of no consequence to crop circle phenomena (or the aliens supposedly creating a few of them here and there).

Perhaps they are a natural phenomena on our planet, something of interest to the government and aliens, alike.

Perhaps the crop circles, themselves, are not the phenomena, but a byproduct of a labeling process for observing various phenomena observed by another intelligent species. They may observe something and simply label their find for others in the region to see.

Of course, many of the 'odd' crop circles possessing 'paranormal' qualities are rather simple and do not appear to possess any real information content, which would leave them being a sort of byproduct of some activity or behavior.

Many different agencies would be involved in researching this - very few of them would share information. Having spent some time in the military, I've learned that the government is not a single effort - there are many different top secret projects out there under different commands and different budgets - some of which trying to accomplish the same goals and competing for the same information.

If there was one involving contact or research into the paranormal and/or aliens - there would likely be other agencies 'not in the know' also researching the same thing and the activities of the other interested agencies.

No - I do not claim to have any knowledge of such projects - it is just an observation I have made with regards to many military and government projects/agencies, and I would expect to find it repeated with anything else under any other magnitude.

2. Why, why, whyyyyy would this method of contact be suitable over the many other types of communication?

Perhaps it is a game to them - or some sort of cultural study. Or, perhaps we give them far too much credit - do they know of Radio? Do they even have the capability to try to communicate in that method?

Perhaps our technology is far superior to their own in many ways - we simply have missed something along the way that would have given us the same ability to travel as they do - or perhaps it is somehow inherent to their physiology.

It is a lot of guessing, really - and hinges around the somewhat dangerous assumption that a crop circle would be intended as a form of communication to us.

3. If these are messages.. we clearly arent understanding them. So why would a supposedly intelligent alien race carry on communicating such complex messages?

Do you stop trying to teach your child to write after they scribble on the page a few times?

Perhaps they see our imitation of crop circles as a sign we are learning - or that we do understand (God only knows what we've said back to them, in that case). Or, perhaps there is no message per-se other than the communication of coherent understanding and appreciation for geometric relationships - just a way of expressing their presence and what is important to them - maybe they are just as intrigued by our incredibly elaborate 'imitations' that go way beyond many of the designs they left.

Maybe they don't know we question their existence - and have decided this is how we prefer to communicate with them.

I can only provide different thoughts on the matter, not a hard answer.

4. If you believe they are warnings/predictions, then considering how many, and how long these have been occuring, wouldnt you think that at least one crop circle would have come to something by now?

The problem with any prophecy that is open to interpretation is that you can always read into it what you want, or decide it really was supposed to be a few years later, or what have you. I would caution against treating crop circles as a warning or prophetic notion on that principle.

That doesn't mean to not heed warnings or consider how to respond to such a predicted disaster - being well prepared is important, but you can't re-live the end of the world every month.

5. Do people not find it strange that although there are certain places in the UK where crop circles appear frequently, there's been no real effort to capture any footage of these things being made? Maybe those cropcircleconnector guys should consider spending less on helicopters to take nice pictures of them, and more on some real research..

This is a problem in all necks of the woods with just about all fields of study. It is just like the shows that try to go out and find bigfoot or something - they set up overnight and leave the next morning saying: "well, we didn't see bigfoot, maybe he exists, maybe he doesn't." A single night is not going to tell you much one way or another.

There is always something more to be done, more detail to be desired, wider sample areas, different technologies to look at something to see if there's something interesting, etc.

The problem is that the real research is less sensational and, while intriguing, doesn't fill air time with dramatic and sensationalized conspiracies. It is also slow going and slow funding - governments will fund universities with millions to research the flight of a Frisbee - for the ten billionth time, but you're not getting the department head with a career to recommend your idea of researching crop circles and aliens to authorize your study unless it's a sociology project discussing cultural trends, fads, mass delirium, etc.

reply to post by atlasastro

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Originally posted by Atlasastro

"Hi Sol. Nice to see you still as passionate as ever about a subject
we have both spent time discussing."

Hi Atlasastro, nice to see you around.

It may surprise you but I agree to a certain extent with many of your observations
relating to the oddities surrounding the CC phenomenon, you ask fair questions,
yet I tend to draw slightly different conclusions.

One thing I mentioned regarding the so-called "Specialist Phenomenon" :

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Sol12

How come in UFO-land there are only very few facts available,
nonetheless, there is an army of self-proclaimed 'specialists'?

How can anyone be considered a 'specialist'
when hardly any solid facts are available to specialize in?

'UFOlogy', for most part, is mere fiction and speculation.

The actual available tangible hard fact:

- The crop circle phenomenon.

The CC phenomenon is either being ignored by the 'UFO community'
or it is being buried in ridicule by the 'CC community'.

Why is that?

Never mind the MSM who is obviously not interested in a fair debate
regarding extra-terrestrials, UFOs and crop circles.

Well, as the Americans say; "you can't make an omelet without breaking any eggs".

My basic point here may be obvious to anyone familiar with the complexities of "UFOlogy"
and that is that there are a few folks out there with dubious agendas
who seek to muddy the waters.

So, by all means, there is an abundance of noise and pseudo-science available.

I have also indicated the type of research
that may provide actual answers to the subject:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Sol12

There is also another interesting and closely related controversy
regarding new technology concerning electromagnetism.

My conviction is that the answers to the UFO/ET/CC phenomenon
can be found by applying knowledge related to electromagnetism.

It is probably no coincidence that this particular field of science
is rather controversial.

The problem here is that the average 'croppie' does not have
adequate means to do this type of research.

The established Science community has these means and so does the Army,
but hey, they pretend to be deaf and blind to the UFO/ET/CC phenomenon?


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/196af8a19766.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/30d2a1e06817.jpg[/atsimg]


You wrote the following:

Originally posted by Atlasastro

"The fact that you need to ridicule this argument: That all CC's are man made,
rather then simply show the evidence you have that supports your belief
and refutes the hypothesis, speaks volumes."

I did not post this thread to offer final answers,
my intention has been to offer "Food for Thought"
as indicated by the title of my video.

As I wrote earlier:

Originally posted by Sol12

The interesting fact regarding the crop circle debate is
that neither the 'believers' nor the 'non-believers' find themselves
in a position to make a solid case regarding their convictions.

It is fact that the origin and method of creation of the majority of crop circles is unknown.

So, what we are dealing with, as yet, is largely an unexplained phenomenon.

The facts, several decades of documented CC history, indicate this
and these facts are out there for anyone either to study or to ignore.

Originally posted by Atlasastro

"Can I ask you a question though?
Why do you think CC's are made by Aliens?"

I don't regard visiting extra-terrestrials as "aliens",
they are fellow citizens of the Universe.

Earth's Humanity is not "extra-universal".

Earth's Humanity can be regarded as one fish in the Ocean of our Solar System.

Isn't it reasonable to assume there must be other fish out there?

Our Solar System is one fish in the Ocean of an Infinite Universe.

Before we can argue that we, people of the Earth, are alone,
we need to first answer the questions what exactly is Human and how did Humanity evolve?

Has accepted contemporary Science managed to answer these questions yet?

The facts, 60+ years of documented history and controversy
related to the UFO/ET phenomenon, point out that we are being visited
by extra-terrestrials, in addition we have an unexplained crop circle phenomenon.

Additional context and evidence pointing out to the fact that we are not alone
can be obtained by studying Myth, Philosophy, Art, Religion & Science.

As to clarify my point of view relating to the "Specialist Phenomenon",
I'll re-post here what I wrote elsewhere while discussing the Butterfly CC:

Full post:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

A Cosmic revelation is taking place,
as evidenced by an extra-terrestrial presence
reaching out to us in a highly sophisticated,
non-intrusive and awe-inspiring manner.

History testifies that the process of disclosure
as initiated by extra-terrestrials is gradual,
it began shortly after the second world war
around the 40's of the previous century.

Parallel to the increasing amount of sightings
reported around the world at that time and continuing
until today, a massive dis-information campaign
was launched in an attempt to keep the general public
unaware of the extra-terrestrial presence.

This dis-information campaign today is mainly targeted
at alternative internet boards and forums where people
gather who take an interest in the UFO/ET/CC phenomenon.

Main purpose of the disinfo-agenda
is to distract and divert attention.

The basic methods of the disinfo-agenda:

- Blunt denial. ( MSM, "give me proof or shut-up". )
- Ignoring the facts ( ignore any info that actually makes sense. )
- Ridicule. ( anything goes. )
- Beating around the bush ( endlessly rehashing case_XYZ. )
- Tunnel vision ( emphasis on irrelevant facts, ignoring the wider picture. )
- Fiction ( pointless mindless fictional speculation. )
- Fear-mongering/fiction ( "abduction", "cattle mutilation", "aliens")

Regardless of all the noise, dis-info and fear-mongering,
people are gradually awakening to the simple truth.

We are not alone.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1770da8579f5.jpg[/atsimg]
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[edit on 13-6-2010 by Sol12]

Hello Sol,
Great Thread.
There is noway that all the Crop Circles are Man Made some are faked .
Real Crop Circles will have also a noise picked up in the field with certian audio equipment .
Fake ones will not .Its that simple .
So if someone says all Crop Circles are Man made prove it once and for all do the research and also talk to people who have recorded sounds in real crop Circles .
Its not all Doug and Dave or Art Students .

reply to post by Sol12


Hi Sol,

Thank you for taking the time to consider my post and offer a reply. I have come to appreciate and value your opinion and the way you conduct any debate you engage in, you recent reply is no different.

Hi Atlasastro, nice to see you around.

It may surprise you but I agree to a certain extent .......

I am not surprised that you agree with me, we have both shown an ability to agree on issues that seem to oppose our beliefs or arguments.

One thing I mentioned regarding the so-called "Specialist Phenomenon" :

www.abovetopsecret.com...

You make some valid observations. We could also include in these observations that historically, humans have dis-informed others to prophet in many ways.
Individuals who create, promote and profit from offering an alternative narrative to explain the circles.
I label it a narrative because they are effectively weaving a tale of mystery in order to suggest that something supernatural is occurring. Simply because they cannot show anything else making them.
By creating a strawman: "that some circles are man made but not all", as an argument they weave doubt into minds.
The challenge is then made that I have to prove a claim that the circles are all man made.
Whilst they offer nothing in anyway that explains the circles other than imagined entities, assumptions and 10 and 15 year old studies by BLT that are thoroughly flawed and ingrained in the mythology and psyche of Believers.

In relation to evidence that people are spreading religious propaganda and philosophies as well as capitalizing on the phenomena, there is plenty that supports a motive to create or invent non-human origins or mysterious causes for CC's in order to do just that.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Well, as the Americans say; "you can't make an omelet without breaking any eggs".

My basic point here may be obvious to anyone familiar with the complexities of "UFOlogy"
and that is that there are a few folks out there with dubious agendas
who seek to muddy the waters.

No doubt.
But we need to clarify the agenda's. We can do that by looking at behavior and what people are getting out of what they are telling us. Fortunately, we have many people doing the same things surrounding this phenomena so pattens form, and historically we can see the trends that have developed in the business aspects surrounding the phenomena along with the contemporary evolution of the philosophies and "messages" that have been promoted by those you mention.
We can see how this correlates to CC location and CC imagery. Southern England is a perfect example of high CC incidence in relation to culturally important regions close to huge populations and transport. In other terms, CC seem to appear mostly around areas in England that will see lots of people who are already visiting these regions, traditionally and historically, for cultural tourism.
www.siue.edu...


The one significant agenda that has stayed pretty constant is the claim that some of the CC's are not man made.
What is second to this is the fact that this claim is only established by creating or inspiring doubt about the ability of humans to make ALL the circles.
Only when this doubt is established, can people then being to entertain other possibilities.
So all that is really being created is an agenda of doubt. The mystifying or the creation of a phenomena.
No other cause have ever been shown. Ever. In the history of CC's Sol12. Think about why it is that you believe something other that Humans is or are making CC's.
Is it because you merely believe a claim that it is impossible for humans to make Crop Circles?

Originally posted by Sol12

There is also another interesting and closely related controversy
regarding new technology concerning electromagnetism.

Firstly Sol12. The Sun emits in the full electromagnetic spectrum but our atmosphere filters much of it out.
So we have the ability to observe the effects electromagnetic radiation on plants and we have in fact researched these effects in depth.

There have literally been been thousands of studies relating to this Sol12.

Not to mention We live in a world that has many, many, many new devices that emit electromagnetic radiation. Powerlines, mobile phones and wireless technology etc.
So the research on the effects of electromagnetic fields on both animal and plant life are in there thousands. Literally in the thousands Sol12.
This gives us a base of knowledge to compare CC crop anomalies with research conducted on EM on plants.
It also adds the potential that EM is being used by humans to create CC's.

My conviction is that the answers to the UFO/ET/CC phenomenon
can be found by applying knowledge related to electromagnetism.

Well, I usually am convinced by evidence, but your conviction is noted and respected.

It is probably no coincidence that this particular field of science
is rather controversial.

It is controversial, but only because it is an everyday technology that billions of people use and rely on. It is controversial because of the fact that if the levels of EM, that we use on a daily basis, were found to be harmful(there is debate surrounding cancer etc) it would have massive implications.

The problem here is that the average 'croppie' does not have
adequate means to do this type of research.

Yet they seem to be able to find the adequate means to make a plethora of websites, documentaries, "lecture tours", Crop Circle tour companies, DVD's, calenders, Arial Photography, conferences, Crop Circle Industry Fairs, Crop Circle Music CD's, Crop Circle Health products, Jewelry........Maybe they just don't have the time or the money to invest in anything else.

The established Science community has these means and so does the Army,
but hey, they pretend to be deaf and blind to the UFO/ET/CC phenomenon?

You are ignoring the fact that they have looked at it. Both the scientific community and the Military.
It is funny to me because when it suits the Crop Circle community, they use the Government and the military to support the Mystery or UFO/Alien connection but then blame the government and the military and scientific community when it suits them for their own inability to research and find proof for the cause they claim is making the CC's.
www.colinandrews.net...

I did not post this thread to offer final answers,
my intention has been to offer "Food for Thought"
as indicated by the title of my video.

But you still needed to ridicule a hypothesis that is supported by evidence and fact. Ridicule as an opposing argument is not food for thought, my friend.

Cont.

Originally posted by Sol12

The interesting fact regarding the crop circle debate is
that neither the 'believers' nor the 'non-believers' find themselves
in a position to make a solid case regarding their convictions.

I have argued to the contrary. The hypothesis that all crop circles are man made is not based on any assumptions at all. The hypothesis makes the assumption, sure, that is what it is for. But it is totally supported by observed evidence. The case is solid.

It is fact that the origin and method of creation of the majority of crop circles is unknown.

We can apply this to many things.
Did I see my house being built? No.
Did I see how it was built and by whom? No.
Does that mean that it was not built by humans or that it was impossible for them to build?
Again, no.
I hypothesis that my house was built by humans, with human technology because I have observed other house being built by humans. So my hypothesis that Humans built my house is solid, even though I did not see them build it, or how they built it.

So, what we are dealing with, as yet, is largely an unexplained phenomenon.

It is explainable. You just reject that explanation. Lets be clear on that.

The facts, several decades of documented CC history, indicate this
and these facts are out there for anyone either to study or to ignore.

In all that time, there has been nothing other than humans ever documented making CC's.
In the entire history, no other cause, other than man, ever documented!
You can either study that or ignore it.

Isn't it reasonable to assume there must be other fish out there?

Do you think it is reasonable to suggest that what you assume exists means that you can assume they capable of traveling to earth and then assume they are making CC's as a way of explaining something you believe unexplainable, a belief you have after rejecting a human explanation.
Does that sound reasonable?

Our Solar System is one fish in the Ocean of an Infinite Universe.

Yes it is.

Has accepted contemporary Science managed to answer these questions yet?

Slowly, we are getting answers.

The facts, 60+ years of documented ....... in addition we have an unexplained crop circle phenomenon.

There is over 2000 years of documented religious and other supernatural phenomena.

Additional context and evidence pointing out to the fact that we are not alone
can be obtained by studying Myth, Philosophy, Art, Religion & Science.

I have. In depth.


cont

[edit on 14/6/10 by atlasastro]