Plane carrying Polish president Lech Kaczynski crashes near Russian airport, CONFIRMED DEAD

Originally posted by rufusdrak
So much for hating on Russia and being with Nato/EU's side. I guess EU/NATO couldn't give them a better plane for their most important people? Don't bite the hand that feeds you. They smooch with the west yet they still take their most important equipment/planes from Russia, and use a 30 year old one at that.

That RT video feed just interviewed a former Russian fighter pilot who said he worked with the jet type that crashed for 20 years. He said the plane has a great mechanical record, and that of all crashes only 10% of crashes were due to technical failures, and so that in his opinion it must have been pilot error.

Felt like I was watching American propaganda on Fox News.

Originally posted by BobAthome
Why is it everytime there is going to be World War Poland gets nailed first ?

We are not EVER going to have another world war....

Even to suggest it is a crazy idea....

The World has us all were it wants us without firing a bullet. Society has changed And people stand to lose far far far too much to let a WW happen.

ROFLMAO

During Kaczynski's presidency, he pursued a strongly pro-U.S. foreign policy, in accordance with a cross-party consensus that has grown in Poland since the fall of communism. He was an enthusiastic backer of plans to build a U.S. missile defense facility in the country, the largest of the European Union's new eastern members.

www.foxnews.com... xnews%2Flatest+%28Text+-+Latest+Headlines%29

I have some information from my dad from poland.
He told me, that there were some power struggles between lech kaczynski and donald tusk. Tusk wants to reform the military in poland.

Then he said, this kind of plane crash wasn´t the first one, with that many important personalitys dying at one time.
On 24.01.2008, 16 officer of high rank died in Miroslawiec in a plane crash, not far away from the runway. I couldn´t find anything about the black box.

He wrote in some forums, but his threads were deleted. (don´t know how offensive his writing was.)

He says the discussions in parlament make the polish military very weak. Some days ago, there was nearly a revolt, becaus soldiers were told to move away from Stettin with their families to an exercise area. These are not good news for a soldier, but they have to handle this, I think. It´s easier to take a command when you know, there is no other alternative. But they hope for alternatives which tusk offers.

Well it´s not much I understand from what he said, hope it helps a little bit.

Originally posted by harrytuttle

Originally posted by rufusdrak
So much for hating on Russia and being with Nato/EU's side. I guess EU/NATO couldn't give them a better plane for their most important people? Don't bite the hand that feeds you. They smooch with the west yet they still take their most important equipment/planes from Russia, and use a 30 year old one at that.

That RT video feed just interviewed a former Russian fighter pilot who said he worked with the jet type that crashed for 20 years. He said the plane has a great mechanical record, and that of all crashes only 10% of crashes were due to technical failures, and so that in his opinion it must have been pilot error.

Felt like I was watching American propaganda on Fox News.

The plane was 26 years old. And was introduced in the 1960's. According to wiki it has been involved in 64 serious flight incidents including 36 with human fatalities, however due to its long time of operation its safety record is considered 'average.'

Originally posted by Vitchilo
CONFIRMED.

THE PRESIDENT AND HIS WIFE KILLED.

(on Sky News TV)

Indeed this is really strange... let's hope Poland ain't taking this as an assassination...

Because Poland is in NATO... and an attack on NATO is an attack on everyone, and that means WW3.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by Vitchilo]

Hmmm...good thinking....that would mean poland is involved in the beginning of another world war.

Russia/China vs Nato ?

What if there are 3 sides in the war......a three way / three sided war.....or 4 sides ??


that would be crazy. I hope it never comes to that

reply to post by pause4thought


No I do not see any possible motive on Russia's side. Sure Kaczynski was critical of Russia, but there are many leaders like him in Eastern Europe. Either way relations between Russia and Poland have been gradually improving recently. Kaczynski's death won't change much for the relations or of Polish political track, because many Polish politicians share his and his party's views.

Either way, no country would ever want a foreign president to die on its soil. Any such event would be investigated and scrutinized to the highest degree, and there is too much risk and potential negative fallout.

reply to post by Numino


Interesting. This sounds more and more like an internal Polish assassination made to look like Russian. Tusk had struggles with the president and someone else said that in this particular trip the president wanted to go in a different plane but Tusk forced him to take this plane?? Sounds kind of fishy.
People should stop condemning Russia and start looking into Tusk and how he was able to make this 'accident' look like it was Russia's doing.

Personally i think the "KID" is 100% correct. And i remember, ok kids if there is a bright flash here is what to do. When it was taught in schools.
And the North Korean war which U.S was winning and told to stop by U.N
And the Vietnam war when they were told oh u can bomb Siagon
And Contra, and so on and so on
And here we are today. Communism is winning or should i say won and everyone is still in la la land. Im mean common they us, just fought a war in Iraq and where does the wealth of the nation go? CHINA ,, won again,, and i do remember when CHINA got there marching orders from RUSSIA and still do in my own humble opinion.

Originally posted by maestro46
Please don't use movies to back up your beliefs.

Please don't create straw men you can easily cut down. It's completely unnecessary for you to insult me like that.

I never said I "believed" anything about Die Hard 2, I asked a question and used Die Hard 2 as an easy cultural reference to illustrate the concept of the question.

Moving forward, instrumentation issues don't make sense as it's becoming clear that the reason the plane was low was because of low fuel causing decreased thrust OR some other yet to be determined mechanical failure.

If the pilot was dumping fuel it was because he knew crashing was inevitable, which means mechanical failure, not pilot error.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by harrytuttle]

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85

Originally posted by Vitchilo
CONFIRMED.

THE PRESIDENT AND HIS WIFE KILLED.

(on Sky News TV)

Indeed this is really strange... let's hope Poland ain't taking this as an assassination...

Because Poland is in NATO... and an attack on NATO is an attack on everyone, and that means WW3.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by Vitchilo]

Hmmm...good thinking....that would mean poland is involved in the beginning of another world war.

Russia/China vs Nato ?

What if there are 3 sides in the war......a three way / three sided war.....or 4 sides ??


that would be crazy. I hope it never comes to that

This is why i think that ATS is on way down.. - these users.
Ignorance, lack of knowledge, too comfortable armchairs.
Bull#.
Stop these COD4/ MW2 propaganda dreamers, or you will lose credibility.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by potential_problem]

Personally i think the "KID" is 100% correct. And i remember, ok kids if there is a bright flash here is what to do. When it was taught in schools.

In US schools?
Dude, there;s 5.6 bln people outside US here, do you understand that?
WE do not care what you were told.
Stop your propaganda.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by potential_problem]

Polish president Kaczynski defeated Tusk in 2005 presidential elections (Tusk, resentful of that?)

"In foreign policy, Tusk has sought to improve relations damaged during the previous Kaczyński government, particularly with Germany and Russia."


"Tusk has also advocated a more realistic relationship with Moscow, especially in regards to energy policy.[6] Under Tusk’s premiership, Russian bans on Polish meat and agricultural products have been lifted, while Poland reversed its official policy of disagreement on a European Union-Russian partnership agreement.[7]"


"In regards to U.S. plans of hosting missile defense shield bases in the country, Tusk hinted skepticism in the project, saying that their presence could potentially increase security risks from Russia, rejecting U.S. offers in early July 2008.[10] By August, however, Tusk relented, and supported the missile shield, declaring, “we have achieved the main goal. It means our countries, Poland and the United States will be more secure.”["


"Since being elected prime minister, relations between Tusk and President Lech Kaczyński have often been acrimonious due to different political ideologies and the constitutional role of the presidency. Using presidential veto powers, Kaczyński has blocked legislation drafted by the Tusk government, including pension reform, agricultural and urban zoning plans, and restructuring state television.[13] Tusk and Kaczyński have repeatedly sparred over issues ranging from European integration, homosexuality, foreign policy, to constitutional issues, with Tusk taking more socially liberal opinions than the conservative Kaczyński."



"In his premiership, Tusk has proposed various reforms to the Polish constitution. In 2009, Tusk proposed changes to the power of the presidency, by abolishing the presidential veto"

reply to post by maloy

Either way, no country would ever want a foreign president to die on its soil. Any such event would be investigated and scrutinized to the highest degree, and there is too much risk and potential negative fallout.

Good argument.

On the other hand there could be no clearer way of sending a message to other leaders who are openly critical of Russian history and policy, such as the leaders of other ex-Warsaw pact nations.

Those who thrive on intimidation don't necessarily fear the truth coming out.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/18f45bd1270f.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by rufusdrak
People should stop condemning Russia and start looking into Tusk and how he was able to make this 'accident' look like it was Russia's doing.

What would be the gain for Tusk, and would it offset the potential negative consequences? It is not like Tusk will lead the country now - there will be early elections and he is not eligible being a PM. Kaczynski's party and supporters are still very strong.

I am not even going to venture into how Tusk could have possibly organized an accident like this. The airplane could have landed with no problems during the first 4 attempts, and nothing would have happened. How could anybody have know that it will need to make as many as 5 attempts. Also why do this in Russia, and thereby giving the Russians an opportunity to do their own investigation uncovering everything.


I think it is silly and inappropriate to talk about any foul play at this time. Nothing points to Tusk. The decoding of the black boxes will yield the necessary clues.

Originally posted by IanC99000310

Originally posted by BobAthome
Why is it everytime there is going to be World War Poland gets nailed first ?

We are not EVER going to have another world war....

Exactly, nuclear weapons are old hat today, they mean nothing, no one is going to use them.

Originally posted by grantbeed

Lech Kaczyński, the President of Poland
Maria Kaczyńska, the first lady
Ryszard Kaczorowski, the last President of the Polish government-in-exile
Jerzy Szmajdziński, Deputy Speaker of the Sejm
Władysław Stasiak, Chief of the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
Aleksander Szczygło, head of the National Security Bureau
Paweł Wypych, Secretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
Mariusz Handzlik, Undersecretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
Andrzej Kremer, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
General Franciszek Gągor, Chief of the Polish Army General Staff
Andrzej Przewoźnik, Secretary-General of Rada Ochrony Pamięci Walk i Męczeństwa
Grzegorz Dolniak, member of the Sejm
Przemysław Gosiewski, member of the Sejm
Zbigniew Wassermann, member of the Sejm
Janusz Kochanowski, Polish Ombudsman
Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the National Bank of Poland
Janusz Kurtyka, Historian and president of the Institute of National Remembrance
Bishop Tadeusz Płoski, Polish Military Bishop (2004)
Izabela Jaruga-Nowacka, member of the Sejm

en.wikipedia.org...

What a shame. One of my friends is Polish and he's quite worried about his family/friends back there, as this isn't likely to do the pretty dire financial situation in Poland any good.

Also, it's pretty bloody stupid for them all to be on the same plane, at the same time, flying into a country with slightly iffy relations with them. Why would they do that?! Weird.

Originally posted by potential_problem
This is why i think that ATS is on way down.. - these users.
Ignorance, lack of knowledge, too comfortable armchairs.
Bull****.

Considering you joined ATS less than a month ago, how can you claim ATS is "on way down"?

Plus, you violated T&C for spelling out the word Bull**** (I censored it because I don't want to violate T&C. It appears it is you sir, who is on the way down...

Originally posted by BobAthome
Personally i think the "KID" is 100% correct. And i remember, ok kids if there is a bright flash here is what to do. When it was taught in schools.
And the North Korean war which U.S was winning and told to stop by U.N
And the Vietnam war when they were told oh u can bomb Siagon
And Contra, and so on and so on
And here we are today. Communism is winning or should i say won and everyone is still in la la land. Im mean common they us, just fought a war in Iraq and where does the wealth of the nation go? CHINA ,, won again,, and i do remember when CHINA got there marching orders from RUSSIA and still do in my own humble opinion.

China can say it's communist until it's blue in the face doesn't change the fact that they still have a government ANYONE that knows what communism is knows that they won't have a government ergo china is a socialist state at BEST with an appalling human rights record.

Originally posted by harrytuttle

Originally posted by potential_problem
This is why i think that ATS is on way down.. - these users.
Ignorance, lack of knowledge, too comfortable armchairs.
Bull****.

Considering you joined ATS less than a month ago, how can you claim ATS is "on way down"?

Plus, you violated T&C for spelling out the word Bull**** (I censored it because I don't want to violate T&C. It appears it is you sir, who is on the way down...

I was reading that forum for 2 yrs without registering;
Now you are talking about my country tragedy and please, just don't do that anymore. US people got into topic, and they do not know nothing.

I have some information from my dad from poland.

How you would react. I AM from Poland. HOW could his DAD affect my reality, please tell me.

Btw, you are free to remove my account here - that forum became kids/ignorants/cash makers/whistleblowers food now.
shame, that many of you cannot see this, or it is just good fun for you.

It is like TV now, imho.
BS and 1% of data betweeen lines, actually.
This is disease of every single ats-like forum today.
BUT you do not care - you are unable to difference propaganda/artifical/armchair users voices from real conscious people voice.

Plus, you violated T&C

Do not be ridiculous, dude. US kids are talking about my country, stupid ideas are evolving and what i should say?
Are you kidding me?
feel free to remove my account and have your fun, make ussr flag as your avatar.
It's SO trendy, yeah, LOL

Only data i can share: that accident is opening way to CHANGE our constitution - SECOND worlds constitution stated.
To UE interests.

NOT Russia.
ENOUGH?


Now you can beat me for using word bu.llsh.t.
G'night.
I won't bother YOU anymore, armchair 15 y.o. US truthseekers(you know, guys, they know better).


[edit on 10-4-2010 by potential_problem]

[edit on 10-4-2010 by potential_problem]

Originally posted by harrytuttle
Moving forward, instrumentation issues don't make sense as it's becoming clear that the reason the plane was low was because of low fuel causing decreased thrust OR some other yet to be determined mechanical failure.

It could have been low because of pilot error. The pilot might have become disoriented in the fog and though the runway was closer, disregarding the instruments for a moment. It does not take much control input or time to make a wrong move during approach. A mere 100 or 200 meters of altitude makes all the difference, and the plane could have lowered altitude this much in a matter of seconds, by which time noticing the instruments would have been too late.

Originally posted by harrytuttle
If the pilot was dumping fuel it was because he knew crashing was inevitable, which means mechanical failure, not pilot error.

Perhaps he was told that he had to land anyway (by Presidential staff), so that there would be no delay, so he dumped fuel just in case.

Either way there is no confirmed report about the fuel other than the unnamed witnesses.