Plane carrying Polish president Lech Kaczynski crashes near Russian airport, CONFIRMED DEAD

Seems they are flying Tu-154M not the TU-154 in Poland.

The Tu-154M is the most highly upgraded version, which first flew in 1982 and entered mass production in 1984. It uses more fuel-efficient Soloviev D-30KU-154 turbofans. Together with significant aerodynamic refinement, this led to much lower fuel consumption and therefore longer range, as well as lower operating costs. The aircraft has new double-slotted (instead of triple-slotted) flaps, with an extra 36-degree position (in addition to existing 15, 28 and 45-degree positions on older versions), which allows reduction of noise on approach. It also has a relocated auxiliary power unit and numerous other improvements. Manufacture continued through 2006, and there is still limited manufacturing as of January 2009.(photo link) Max. take-off weight increased first to 100,000 kg (220,462 lb), then to 102,000 kg (224,872 lb). Some aircraft are certified to 104,000 kg (229,281 lb). Tail numbers are 85616 (prototype), production aircraft from 85606 and on (except 85804, which is re-imported Tu-154B-2). About 320 were manufactured. Mass production ended in 2006. No new airframes have been built since the early 1990s, and production since then has involved assembling airplanes from components on hand.[9] This is the most widely used version in the former Soviet states.

Poland is a BIG player on the whole ww3 issue, and since russia is in conflict with america on control of Kyrgyzstan poland may side with america, after all they were the area of choice for the missile defense complex.

This is bad news.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by togetherwestand]

[edit on 10-4-2010 by togetherwestand]

Well im curious...just why do you put half of the elite...in an old russian built jet...thats make no sense...

reply to post by maloy


I beg your pardon, but most people in here are not "entertaining the conspiracy theories". They are trying to get answers, and trying to pool information together to figure out what happened, for the simple reason that the media will Never tell us what happened.

As 'harrytuttle' already pointed out, the media already messed up the story, quite significantly. They claimed the plane lost communications for about 20 minutes, even though they earlier claimed the pilot was in radio contact receiving divert instructions. Then there is the fog, which there are few witnesses, if any, who claim the fog was too thick.

Both of those key pieces of info are Very significant, and the media already messed it up. So who here is really entertaining their egos? I'm sick of the media completely F-ing up entire stories, changing the story around all day long, for a week. Until they have the balls to tell us they finally have it "right", and somehow get the responsibility of writing history.

reply to post by SyphonX


I am as fed-up with MSM as you are, but keep in mind that one of the reasons -- other than trying to hide things -- that the story keeps changing is because of the Internet, everyone is trying to be first and obtain the most traffic.

If this means they have to re-write the story, so be it. Capturing the audience and having the most breaking news updates first is key.

I only bring this up to point out that the story changing isn't necessarily the smoking gun all by itself. Especially not in the first 12 hours or so of the incident.

reply to post by harrytuttle


This is the first bit of info I heard on contact being lost with the aircraft. Also, the link you provide doesn't open. Please check it.

If there was lost communication with the aircraft...lets try to replay the scenario:

The pilot enters Belorussian airspace. When the Belorussian air traffic control tries to warn him of the bad weather conditions ahead, the plane doesn't respond. I believe that repeated attempts would be made to contact it, and when they all failed, planes would be scrambles to find out what's going on. Well, maybe not planes, but Belarus and Russia would be on alert about the fact that a plane that is not responding is flying over their airspace.

Again, my friend, I'm still very interested in these witnesses. I never trust their words as it is, but the fuel leak would explain why the pilot tried to land so many times and refused to divert course. However the distance traveled by the plain was not significant, and Minsk was close by. If the fuel leak would have caused trouble for the aircraft it must have started early, and must have been pretty bad. Though if it did happened at the last second I think the pilot would have still been able to put the plane down somewhere else.

Regards,
Maestro

Originally posted by harrytuttle

So far there is absolutely no evidence that the crash was caused by anything other than combination of weather and pilot error.

How can you say that if the aircraft's communications were cut off 16 minutes before the plane crash?

How can you say that they were cut 16 minutes before the crash? According to what? A BBC chart drawn up by God knows whom? How does BBC have this information? I have not seen this from any other source.

Even if there were cut, that still does not point to any conspiracy theory. The pilot might have cut it in order to focus on the difficult landing, since it was his 5th attempt. Also cut communications are no reason for the plane to crash - the no doubt experienced pilot still had full control. The plane received word about dangerous conditions way before the crash anyway, and it is not like they didn't know about the fog. And nobody can cut communication but the pilot himself.


Seriously why are you trying so hard to push your conspiracy theory? Terrible things happen. Denying ignorance is one thing, but being in denial is another. There is no motive to suggest foul play.

Originally posted by harrytuttle
How can you say that when there were witnesses who saw the aircraft leaking fuel and from as far away as local hotels just before it crashed?

What witnesses, according to what sources? Do they know what leaking fuel looks like? Attention whores appear anytime there is such a tragedy. All reputable sources confirm thick fog, and other planes landing in the airport before the accident had to divert after aborted landing.

Originally posted by harrytuttle
Seriously, how can you make statements like that when there is so much evidence suggesting it wasn't simply "pilot error" and "weather"?

I haven't seen any evidence - just rumors and baseless speculation.


[edit on 10-4-2010 by maloy]

And they were going over to a memorial for the Polish officers murdered by the coms back in the day. This is just custom made for a CT.

reply to post by maestro46


I doubt that the plane was actually leaking fuel. If the witness reports are accurate, its more likely that the pilot realized he had some sort of problem and was intentionally dumping fuel to reduce weight and the chances of a fire in the event of an emergency landing.

Wow I can't believe this isn't all over mainstream news in the US. They are talking about GOP resurgence on CNN. What the hell?

reply to post by maestro46

You are the second person who says the link "doesn't work", but it does! I clicked it and it works.

What country do you live in? Maybe it's an internet filter.

Here is the URL to the BBC article:
BBC article

If that doesn't work for you, then you're internet is being filtered. Can others please verify this works and that I'm not posting garbage please?

Originally posted by maloy
How can you say that they were cut 16 minutes before the crash? According to what? A BBC chart drawn up by God knows whom? How does BBC have this information? I have not seen this from any other source.

Same.

Originally posted by maloy
What witnesses, according to what sources? Do they know what leaking fuel looks like? Attention whores appear anytime there is such a tragedy. All reputable sources confirm thick fog, and other planes landing in the airport before the accident had to divert after aborted landing.

rt.com...

It talks about witnesses to the fuel leak half way through. I never trust witnesses, and this is why I raise the question again - was there in fact a fuel leak, because if there was then the pilot would have reported the problem.

Regards,
Maestro

reply to post by maloy

Thanks for fixing your post, if it was a moderator, thanks for correcting it.



[edit on 10-4-2010 by harrytuttle]

reply to post by lpowell0627


Indeed, I realize the reasons they change their story. Though it was kind of my point all along. Rather than just saying, "Plane crash, no foul play suspected at this time, more to come when we have more information." They choose to pick whatever they want "to break the story first", for money, for attention, and for other things.

Highly disingenuous, no integrity, mostly disgusting. They are in fact, the standard bearers for the writing of the world's history, so you would think they would try harder in the integrity department.

Originally posted by vor78
reply to post by maestro46

 

I doubt that the plane was actually leaking fuel. If the witness reports are accurate, its more likely that the pilot realized he had some sort of problem and was intentionally dumping fuel to reduce weight and the chances of a fire in the event of an emergency landing.

A bit of logic and thought, and all of a sudden things aren't as evil as they seem. Thanks, Vor78.

Regards,
Maestro

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Because it happened in Russia, does that mean that ALL the investigation will be done by Russian authorities?

Yep, the black box from the Polish President's plane has been recovered and is in the hands of the Russians who have been designated as the investigatory body that is being headed up personally by the "uber-concerned" Russian President Putin.

The fact that the Polish President and ALL the HEADS of EACH of the Polish Armed Forces - Army, Navy, Air Force, etc. (i.e. "Joint Chiefs of Staff") were all on their way to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Katyn Massacre, the site at Katyn has become the visible symbol of the atrocity where twenty thousand Polish officers captured during the Soviet Union’s sneak attack on Poland were secretly executed by the NKVD* (ancestor to the KGB), and the Russian plane the Polish dignitaries are in crashes while attempting to land at a Russian airport and the official investigation concerning the crash is being performed by Russians headed up by Russian President Putin IS OBVIOUSLY PURELY ALL FREAKING COINCIDENTAL!!!! /sarc

Yeah, right......

Originally posted by SyphonX
I beg your pardon, but most people in here are not "entertaining the conspiracy theories". They are trying to get answers, and trying to pool information together to figure out what happened, for the simple reason that the media will Never tell us what happened.

In this case they are not relying on any evidence, but are on unsubstantiated rumors. Rumors do not help decipher what happened in a tragic event, but only cloud the facts. But who am I to argue - I simply suggested that people keep their cool and don't rush to sensational conclusions. This is a time to mourn the victims, not make baseless accusations.

Originally posted by SyphonX
As 'harrytuttle' already pointed out, the media already messed up the story, quite significantly. They claimed the plane lost communications for about 20 minutes, even though they earlier claimed the pilot was in radio contact receiving divert instructions. Then there is the fog, which there are few witnesses, if any, who claim the fog was too thick.

What could BBC possibly know about communication with the plane? Were they in the control tower? All information is coming from Russian and Polish sources, because they are the only ones that know the facts. Most of the facts will not be revealed until the investigation.

So far the Russian and Polish sources said nothing about any communication cut off. How can BBC possibly know this?

Originally posted by SyphonX
Both of those key pieces of info are Very significant, and the media already messed it up.

The media is also highly susceptible to rumors and sensationalism. BBC does not have any knowledge that wasn't provided to them by the Russian, Polish and airport officials, and these sources did not say anything about communications.

Originally posted by SyphonX
So who here is really entertaining their egos? I'm sick of the media completely F-ing up entire stories, changing the story around all day long, for a week.

Then don't listen to the media. I am simply saying that based on concrete facts, there is no substantiation for any conspiracy theory so far. The communication bit is not a fact, but a possibly a mistake by BBC, which wouldn't have any direct knowledge of such details yet anyway.

reply to post by harrytuttle


Link still doesn't work. I can assure you that the current country that I'm in would have no reason to filter BBC.

If I'm not the first one who can't open the link...well...there's definitely something wrong with it. Can you find this info anywhere else? I'm looking, and I've got nothing so far.

Regards,
Maestro

If the plane was dumping fuel what kind of problems could they have if the hush kiit was on. A hush kit is mounted on older planes to make them quite during take off and landing by allowing the plane to suck in outside cold air. Could the hush kit have sucked in dumped fuel after 4 or 5 atempted landings at the airstrip?

reply to post by maloy


Conspiracy theories or not, you're trying to tell people to not ask questions. I don't understand this, sorry.

By all means, people should be asking questions. Who else will?

Do you think the heads of state across all countries in Europe, and abroad, including Canada and the US are telling their people to not suspect anything? Do you think they are telling their intelligence sector to stand down, and not investigate further?

No. Everyone will be independently investigating this disaster for Months, maybe years, maybe forever. Every 1st world country on the planet is considering this as possible foul play, because it is an incredibly high-profile loss of life.

You think other countries heads of state will be traveling by plane in the next 48 hours, let alone anywhere near Poland? No, they will not. Not anyone integral to leadership anyway.

Fact of life, is that tragedies need to be speculated on, in order to learn and adapt. Frankly, as much as I support the questioning of this sad event, I have to say that I myself am not considering many conspiracies. My brain just isn't buzzing for this one, for whatever reason. That being said.. nothing is unlikely in this 21st century world.