The Founding Fathers were FAILURES and DEADBEAT DADS.

reply to post by savageheart

I am both appalled yet amused at your responses.

You are entitled to be appalled and amused, however my intention was neither.

The question wasn't whether you watch TV or not. I am reminded that as with my child of 13 years of age, I must be absolutely specific in my dialogue. With that said, my point was whether or not you could appreciate the fact of such ingenuity brought forth through individual conception and freedom to pursue that concept into reality.

And my point is, as I’ve previously stated, no. The reason why I can’t appreciate something as silly as a remote is because I have little to no use of a tv (aside from connecting my game systems and dvd players.) I do not sit in front of the tv for long periods of time, or use it for long periods of time, so I find no appreciation in the remote. The same thing I can do with a remote, I can do with the buttons of the tv (yes I have a menu button, etc.)
Do you understand now? You remind me of the kids I used to tutor….

You obviously have mistaken "researching" for just searching. Again, where is your proof of what you spew and / or researched?

You’re another selective reader. I spend a lot of time researching and reading. This is business related and has nothing to do with ATS (even though I do a lot of reading outside of business.)

I am however inclined to believe the following as to your spare time: surfing the web, which does not constitute research, (refer to the above), video gaming, (shocker), and whatever "other things" are.

My job is to research for the company I’m a principle of. Yes, others can do it, and we can hire others to do it, but this is something I want and need to do. What I research is of no concern to you, but I assure you it is legal, we’re in a growth industry, we support STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) and we have a strong sense of developing technologies for emerging markets. You seem to be confused as to what it is I research, however, “empires” and “humans” is something I researched in school (and am able to apply to my current business ventures.)

I will admit that I have not done any statistical research regarding stairwells over an elevator, however, I do believe that I would prefer my chances in the elevator as opposed to being trapped in a smoke filled stairwell full of stampeding people.

You can take your chances as much as you like. Personally, I do not appreciate elevators.

Your response to refrigeration is as invalid as your previous posts and actually shows your lack of thorough understanding of what it can be used for.

This is idiocy on your part. You asked about a “refrigerator as opposed to an "ice box," to prolong perishable items”, yet when I tell you no, and tell you the reason why is due to not being able to keep the food as long as it could because the food has changed, you say I’m showing a lack of understanding. ROFL! I answered your question and gave you a logical reason as to why I don’t appreciate it yet you speak of what it can be used for, even though you limited it’s use to preserving food.

I do apologize that you feel "different" from most people, any clue as to why?

Because my people are a different group of people. No, we are not aliens from the Planet Zebes, not indigo children, etc. We’re simply a group of people with a distinct look and name, a look so distinct that we all basically resemble each other (even the most distant cousins, nephews, etc) no matter who marries who. It has nothing to do with skin tone either. For those who have encountered us, they encounter another member of the family and will ask if they are related. In fact, it has happened to me, several times, especially when I leave the state or when people see my last name. Which brings me to that, we have a distinct last name as well, which should be easy for people to pronounce, yet most people can’t pronounce it.

You are allowed to come and go as you please. There are specific reasons as to why proper documentation is needed, again, a lack of fully understanding what you think you understand. As to "watts and Boston," SURE! Whether an individual would want to or not would be of their own accord.....choice.

Again, no one is allowed to come and go as they please. You cannot get up, in the middle of the night, and do so without following the rules “they” have laid down. If I don’t want to travel without a passport or take another picture for it, I can’t leave even if I wanted. If I constantly make flights from one area to another I’m flagged (which has happened to me on several occasions.) Concerning someone going to Watts or Boston, again, the choice is only an illusion as the repercussions of what may likely happen should render future visits a non possibility.

So, your family has enough land to grow food for yourselves? That is simply an amazing statement to me with regard to your bashing posts against those who paved the way for your family to have such.

The founding fathers didn’t pave a way for me to have anything. Was our land once inhabited by other people? Yes, and we make sure we try to help others, regardless of what religion, race/ethnicity, sexual preference, etc they are.

And finally, you are familiar with the upkeep of a farm and/ or farm animals due to the fact that a friend bred dogs???? Are you seriously serious?

You asked about the upkeep of animals. Shoveling poop in a kennel is the same as shoveling poop in a pigpen. You seem to miss the fact that I told you my father was a farm boy. He taught his children how to hunt and fish. If I want to kill a chicken, I know how to do it. If I want to breed them, I can do it. If I need to tend the ground, I know how to do it. If I need to set up a trench to gain water for myself or the animals I can do it. There is no difference between taking care of a dog and taking care of a goat, or chicken or any livestock used for consumption. You may think it is rocket science, but I assure you it isn’t.

This is all very important and relevant as you seem to not have a clue that our FF helped to make all this possible.

I’m sorry, but they didn’t help with any of this. Well…they did if you accept the fact that they concocted a plan to kill, rape and pillage from the people who were already here. If so, yes, the FF made it all possible…

I bid you a good night and please, do a little more research.

Refer to all previous posts…


ETA: I'll be gone for two days. I'll tend to the sheep when I return.



[edit on 22-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Keep reading.

I did and all I saw was you bringing up questions, not context nor proof to back your claims.

Albeit, they are excellent questions to ponder, research and contemplate about.

Because you didn’t remove the illusion of choice. And how will society look at you? As a failure.

So wait, I will be a failure in the eyes of society if I have provided my children with a solid foundation? One that they can fall back upon in the tough times. I cannot make the choices for my children, but only hope that my teachings guide them to make them stronger. Since I am directly countering your thesis and claim, I will say that the Founding Fathers indeed provided a foundation and guidance, but just as my children must make their life choices, we too have made choices to guide this country to where it at today.

Apparently my allegory was above your head.

And this countries foundation was corrupt from the beginning.

Show me the corruption, not the mistakes. Not the culture and societal behaviors of the times.

The genocide of Natives, the slavery of Africans, the mistreatment of the Irish, it’s all there.

I agree. The Republic didn't have a perfectly clean start. Do tell though, which country ever has? Which country that has ever resided upon this Earth has ever gone to such great lengths that the United States of America has to right their wrongs?

From the very start this country was founded on principles of bloodshed, mayhem, lies and the transference of power from one group to another. These men did not want independence for all, rather, they wanted independence for themselves, and their offspring, from people just as they were. This is history, this is the historical findings my words are based on, and there is nothing you or anyone else can provide that will remove this blight.

Where have you derived this opinion though. I do not attack it, but rather seek to understand your view. If it based upon some knowledge, share it with us!

And what happened to the Natives?

Place yourself into the society of the times. Remove the knowledge you have now and tell me what would you do? Mind you, this is impossible because we know now, that the Native people of this land were not savages, but rather people. Different times, different views. I do not condone them, but I surely understand them.

By the by, John Adams never owned a slave and had slave labor for his family nor his farm. Him and his wife lamented and anguished over the fact they were so desperately fighting for their freedoms while denying certain groups theirs. It is an unfortunate consequence and black mark upon American History, but nonetheless, one that must be taught and must be understood from all sides to know that there were those in Independence Hall that wish they could have struck out slavery from the get go.

See above. His “love of family and his country” came at the expense of what people? Whether directly, or indirectly, who were harmed as a result of his ambitions?

This could be said to you Empire. At what expense is your rant that you have produced here going to cost? Both directly and indirectly. This could be said of any person in a leadership role. Not everything can be corrected at once. I am gaining the impression that you have never experienced a leadership role, lest you would recognize that sometimes sacrifices, even ones we dread, must be made.

Slave owners. Genocide of natives, etc. This country was built on blood and to deny this is to deny the truth.

Not all were slave owners. Most were, you are correct. Again, it was a time period that is completely 180 degrees from where we are today. Remove your subjective self and observe history objectively. The slave traders of Africa and tribes that sold off slaves are just to blame as the buyers and traders in the New World.

------------

On that note, since you have levied the claim that our Founding Fathers were deadbeats and failures, I provide you with the following quotes. I selected just a few, but there are many more that show not only did they lay down the foundations as best they could to provide the maximum freedoms, but also forewarned those that wish to take up the mantle of self-governance about the dangers that lie in wait.

But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.

-John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 1775

Quite true...look at all the unfunded entitlement programs we have allowed to suck this nation dry

Children should be educated and instructed in the principles of freedom.

-John Adams, Defense of the Constitutions, 1787

Far cry from what is taught today. Dependency is the word of the day.

A fondness for power is implanted, in most men, and it is natural to abuse it, when acquired.

-Alexander Hamilton, The Farmer Refuted, February 23, 1775

Would you not agree?

Here sir, the people govern.

-Alexander Hamilton, speech to the New York Ratifying Convention, June 17, 1788

Again, we have fallen wayside to the teachings and wisdom that was handed to us; we failed our stewardship.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by ownbestenemy]

Originally posted by projectvxn
Hehehehe. Nice baiting attempt. No historical foundation, no understanding of the thousands of years of philosophical evolution that lead to our founding, nothing of value.
This is what happens when children lose an argument.

Good for a chuckle though.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by projectvxn]

I was going to launch into a witty retort, but thank you for saving me the time and angst in doing so!

reply to post by EMPIRE


I can see where you're coming from, even though I dont agree with you. I understand your frustrations with this country, and the need to blame someone for the way things are today. But slandering people who you never have and never will meet is kind of strange to me. What exactly does anyone know about people from over 200 years ago? I mean, other than what you've read about them. History has shown us that writers are not always un-biased when it comes to telling stories. For example I have read 2 books on Ben Franklin, (who I still admire by the way), each book wove a tail that showed a completely different man than the one my college text books described. So, which should I believe? Perhaps all of them have some truth and some exaggerations. What I DO know for a fact is that these men you slam were NOT dead beats. They were in most cases aristocrats that wanted a simple life instead of a pompous one, or they were simple men that rose to the level of aristocrat by sheer ingenuity and financial prowess, something by the way that would have been impossible in England at the time.

Sure, most of these men were adulterers, womanizers, drunks, smokers etc... But, despite their shortcomings,( they were human after all) they managed to put their fellow countrymen first and literally RISK THEIR LIVES by speaking out against the King of England and promoting revolution. This was not for some financial gain as you propose. This was based on principal. Principals that today people seem to negate.

Let me leave you with this quote from B Franklin himself which I think sums up my feelings toward your post.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

reply to post by EMPIRE


Thanks for the laugh my friend. Had to have a chuckle today. It's a Monday after all and I needed this little bit of entertainment.

So what do you think we should do? Just chuck the Constitution? Scrap the country and start over with a more social leaning one?

I don't get your angle? What are you truly preaching here?

reply to post by EMPIRE


Who are you speaking too? The people sitting mind numbed in front of the TV and computer with no clue or anyone within the borders of the U.S? There are plenty of people here in the U.S who do whatever the hell they want, nuts to the laws on the books and what people think. There are plenty of people who enjoy life here and don't acquiesce to the system.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by nixie_nox

 

Do you know anything about American history?

Yes, we’re Rome with a coat of paint that happens to be red, white and blue.

That could be said about every civilization, try something original.

You do realize that America at its start was broke as hell. John Adams had to work hard overseas just to get countries to recognize that America even existed, much less invest and start commerce with a country that 1) others didn't acknowledge existed and 2) was broke.

No, America, in the form of the founding fathers, was not broke.
I have to skip some of your other lines because they’re filler.

I can just see your trolling, as this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

And you obviously can't answer any real questions, further proof your trolling.

The revolution and Declaration didn't happen in a day. This took decades. Even voting on the DOI took a lot of prompting and fast talking by John Adams.

How long will it take for the current population to wake up? Decades?

Yet, we don't have a monument to the man to this day. Which is horrible imo.

Well since you have obviously made it clear you don't know anything about the American history your talking about, you should pick up a history book before reading conspiracy 101 to pick your battles.

A monument? To a man? A monument is simply brick, clay or whatever material you’re going to use to make it. This man, in fact, no MAN deserves a monument. Stop worshipping men and looking for messiahs.

What a great big leap you took. I don't believe in messiahs. I do believe in rewarding those who sacrifice much for the good of others. So I suppose in your beliefs you want to take a hammer to the Tomb of the Unknowns?

The man didn't even like politics, but was a patriot, and spent decades from his family to bring about what is best. When all he wanted to do was be a farmer.

Question, if he is as you say he is, which I doubt, do you think he would want a monument?

What do you care, you don't even know the history.

I am sorry, but to insinuate a group of men, whom you don't seem too familiar with, could line up decades of events to bring this all about as a secret plot control a group of people, not very big or wealthy at the time, is just absurd.

No, it isn’t absurd. These men saw a need and filled the need. Or you can say they created a need. You see it every day in business. The problem is, you don’t see it because you don’t understand that from the very start, this country has been conducted as a business, and you don’t see it because you fall for soothing words and are predisposed to accepting strong delusion.

Oh tell me again, enlightened one, what I have fallen for. You have no idea of my beliefs or disbeliefs, and are yet another beginner trying to flex yoru wings and assume what a random person on the net knows or don't know, or believes and doesn't believe.


To line up the series of events it took for the Constitution to happen is way to random and tentative to actually be created by a person.


Stop with your generic answers and get some data to back you up so you can graduate from conspiracy 101.

And then to say it didn't work, when a tiny country of peasants managed to turn it into a superpower that affects the whole global climate is not a successful plan, is also absurd.

Are you part of that superpower? NO! You’re part of the peasant population, but because you have the “right” to vote, and believe that because you can surf the net, or have “freedom of speech” you think you’re part of the superpower.

What are you smoking?


[edit on 22-3-2010 by nixie_nox]

If you would stop conning yourself with empire, you will see the truth. Until then, the beast will run in circles, but hopefully tighter so that you will be saved from your folly. Manifest destiny is correct. Man-I-fest. Man I eat. The rigid structure coming from asking "Y" when X marks the spot is a fountain of problems for humanity. The i-dea that you are ever correct is wrong. It is inherent. You are being her ant. I realize the irony of me saying this, as language makes this difficult to express. If you long to see, you will see.

So the main premise of this"post" is that the people who started America were nothing but bloodthirsty slavers and destroyers of all happy goodness. My question is what happy goody goody crap got destroyed? The majority of large tribes on this continent were slave holders and raiders, they took what they wanted from the weak and along came a bigger bully to take it from them. That's history, I've studied a lot of the planet and can't come up with one good example of a culture or city state that came to power without it adversly affecting some other group. It's a zero sum game.
The "Founding Fathers" of this country is an interesting mythos, but to think that it was just the dude's who signed a piece of paper that caused this country and all that has happened in 200 odd years to occur is a bit of a weak argument. Even during those FF's lifetimes many of them were dissapointed with what was happening, Thomas Jefferson (I know another evil evil slaveholder whose slaves lived better than most of the people in the country at the time) was fully convinced that we had failed in checks and balances because we had forgotten that by having a court of the law that the courts would have their own armies(Lawyers and Police) and be signifigantly more empowered than the other two branches.
I could rant on like many of my fellow members but it won't change you're lack of opinion. It won't change that you are "Whatever We want to believe you are". Whatever, a man (or woman) who cannot or will not define themselves has no right to hang definitions on others.

PS: Not trying to diss on anyone who identifies deeply with their native roots, I have a bit from a tribe that was crushed and enslaved by the Algonquin after they decided to go with a more Euro style of government, ie Democracy for us, Death for them.

Young man, youre speaking your thoughts freely, and writing them from your unintruded home, in your country of residence, which happens to be The United States of America.
Please take a moment to read that again and understand it fully.
I would imagine that should YOU be involved in the start of something of value, such as the creation of a country in which you instilled your strong beliefs of freedom of self, that you would also have the intelligence and foresight to realize that you were mortal, you have a lifespan, and that you would die.
Incorporating into your creation the power for those that would follow you to have the ability to continue on with your handy work by not only keeping it going, but improving it, would require great wisdom on your part, and great participation by those following you.
To lay the term dead beat dad, at the feet of those that are truly dead and in the grave, who actually worked at creating the country from where you now type bravely in your unintruded home, as you share your thoughts freely without penalty, seems not only unappreciative and immature, it brings with it an odor of hypocrisy, true ignorance, and selfish entitlement.
DEADBEAT DADS?, hardly young man.
Perhaps applying some of your own comments toward yourself would bring you some clarity, perhaps instead of you stomping your feet and demanding that you get what you want because youre entitled, maybe you doing something to insure it continues to exist is called for.
Your founding fathers are dead, they cannot fight your fight from the grave.
Deadbeat Dads? or is it FAILURE AS A SON, as an Heir?
Failures ?
Disappointments will come, how quickly they are dispatched depends on actions taken against them.
Do you only believe that you are talented enough to write about the disappointments and setbacks and are powerless in their remedy?
Is that all you have?, commentary on what has already happened, are you so broken and weak that you can not lead or contribute to provide positive changes?
If so, then you need to come to terms with the idea that YOU have failed,
you have failed to even come close to halfway of where your DEAD BEAT DADS left off.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
I’m not whining. I’m citing the fact that this country was built on bloodshed. You may consider it whining but people died, remember that.

And name a country that wasn't built on bloodshed?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
We aren’t talking about them. This is not a case of “they did it why not mention them”, because ultimately, “the Spanish” are NOT the major beneficiaries of natives being wiped out.

Well, we are talking about the FF, and the Spanish were here prior. They helped settle the New World along with the French and British.

Oh, I get you. The Spanish get a "pass" on the Natives they killed and enslaved in the New World.

Once again, it's all the fault of the Americans. Geez, that's pretty lame.



[edit on 22-3-2010 by jerico65]

[edit on 22-3-2010 by jerico65]

I've been watching this thread evolve for awhile, wondering what, if anything to say - but honestly, since I'm convinced in my heart of hearts that this is a bait thread by a troll who really just wants to get both attention and a rise out of people by using convoluded logic and big words, I'm going to refrain. The repeated use of veiled insults really just reaffirms my theory...

reply to post by Legion2112

since I'm convinced in my heart of hearts that this is a bait thread by a troll who really just wants to get both attention and a rise out of people by using convoluded logic and big words

You know, you are so right. This has provoked reaction and wasted time for so many, and I fell for it too. Learning experience.
BTW if the OP ever declared whether he was a U.S. Citizen or not, I haven't seen it yet. Anyone know? That's one thing I asked, that I did not get an answer for.

Excellent thread, I look forward to reading more of EMPIRE's replies.
All that he/she speaks of rings true in my ears. Actually, I am amazed
at the fact that such a philosophically well rounded person exists.
There are many facts and philosophical theorems used that many of you should look up. I can say that I have never seen a person defend their position so well. The only problem that I can see, in my view, is that EMPIRE speaks to most of you, arrogantly I must say, as if expecting every single one of you to be well read and well rounded in critical thinking. Unfortunately independent logical thought doesn't work for everyone. I'm not trying to insult any of you, I'll be the first to admit that I would have a hard time defending EMPIRE's position in this matter. I am not as well read as he/she is. But for all those of you who perhaps fail to grasp the basics of what EMPIRE tried to put forward is this, in my understanding of course.

Forget all you know, forget all you have been thought. All nations have been founded on bloodshed and tyranny, that is the human way. America is just the topic at the moment because it is a superpower and has much influence on the world, and also because it hits close to home for most of you. EMPIRE is trying to show you that everything you have been thought in school is a big fat lie, yet you scream and accuse him/her of wrong doing when you fail to coherently argue with him/her. Perhaps it's laziness, but I have not seen one of you post a link to any source, nor use critical thinking in this debate, and I use the word debate loosely here. I have instead seen the opposite, the spoiled urge to be shown... something... Maybe it is time to set aside the ego, and the "I feel it in my gut that I am right" and accept what is posted as potentially true, and refute it logically with accurate historical backing. All I see is some of you posting patriotic essays on the FF regardless of cold hard facts, even as far as ignoring the said facts. Why is it so hard to accept that the FF were intentional hypocrites with their own agendas? Have you not learned in your lives that no one on this planet has your best interests at heart yet? Are you that naive? Why do you refuse to at least consider EMPIRE's position? Because it makes you feel dumb? This is a natural process by which an individual learns to improve one self. Everyone feels dumb when they are proven different, but forging forwards towards the ultimate truth is what matters, the final SYNTHESIS. Forging forwards makes one feel smarter and more in control of one's own environment. Do I have to explain everything EMPIRE said in an Essay format for you to understand? Certain things are learned when one looks from an outside perspective, unbiased by common misguided ideologies. I'm amazed at the fact that some of you would rather discuss EMPIRE's ethnicity rather then the subject at hand. I don't wish to chastise any of you, but please, for the sakes of a healthy debate, stay on track. Where are the "Maybe you are right, but what about this? What about that?" Instead I hear what I can only relate to as a high school behavior of "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm showing you my tongue now". Your egotistical need to be right regardless of the amount of proof and critical thinking presented is astonishing. Are you all that Arrogant?

I must apologize, I did not mean to chim in, but I could not resist my emotional outburst. I know full well that EMPIRE can handle him/her self quite well in this thread. I just feel like clarifying certain things for certain people. Unlike some, I actually look up words and definitions of things I am not familiar with.

This is going to be my only post on this thread. Any questions should be privately sent to me. This is EMPIRE's thread, not mine.

EDIT. Some of you show promise in your counter arguments, EMPIRE's responses should be interesting.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by Radekus]

The OP is overly long, and meanders around using loose analogies to try and make its point.

Regardless of the shortcomings of both the title and content of the OP - it has a point of view that has merit.

The founders of the USA were just human beings, and certainly they were driven in at least some part by self interest, and we should not be surprised to see self interest evident in the language of the documents they created.

On the other hand, they were also in many ways in competition and opposition to each other - so this self interest had to be acceptable to them all. I feel it was created to allow them individual power, and prohibit the creation of a central authority which would deprive them of personal power.

Therefore the constitution of the US is a document that shows a healthy suspicion of government, and makes a lot of attempts to distribute power, in hopes of preventing its concentration.

In this regard it was effective for many years - but by the late 19th century, the financial interests certainly had their foot into the doors of governmental power.

So, generally while I empathize with the points that the OP is trying to make - I feel that the concentration of power that has developed over the last 120 years or so, is not because of the constitution, and the efforts of the 'founding fathers' but rather, in spite of it.

At the moment corporate and government power is indistinguishable. Financial interests have captured both legislature (congress), judiciary (courts) and executive (president, military) powers - so without a massive reshuffle, and further measures implemented to force the separation, and dissolution of this concentration of power - then the ongoing subjugation of the common people by this collective of oligarchs will continue.

People should understand this is the basic problem that faces them now - there is no separation of power - because financial interests have achieved two crucial things;

1) Undermining of the electoral system, whereby THEY select candidates, rather than the people - and they unduly influence voters by use of a mass media system that is not held to standards of truth and integrity.

2) Using bribes and a corrupted electoral system they have been able to place their own people into all branches of government.

While there are many issues that have arisen as a consequence - this is the central problem.

In dealing with the problem, the question should be asked; what were the underlying conditions that allowed this to happen?

The main facilitating condition to allow this was two fold;

1) The use and existence of a fiat currency, and monetary controls that were independent of the state - namely the central banking and Federal Reserve system.

2) The existence of corporations which were allowed legal entity status, but were 'privileged' entities, in that they could act immorally, but had no physical person against whom punitive damages, or imprisonment could be exacted.


As an additional note, a quick application of logic in assessing the prevailing business environment reveals two inescapable conclusions;

While business does not have to measure and account for social or environmental costs of conducting business, then there will be increasing human and environmental costs.

A system that facilitates concentration of wealth through the use of debt and usury will concentrate wealth, and the divide between rich and poor will widen.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by Amagnon]

reply to post by ownbestenemy

I did and all I saw was you bringing up questions, not context nor proof to back your claims. Albeit, they are excellent questions to ponder, research and contemplate about.

Again, history supports my assessment.

So wait, I will be a failure in the eyes of society if I have provided my children with a solid foundation?

Absolutely not. You’ll be considered a failure if your children failed. Do I need to remind you of your words? I think I do so let’s rewind a bit to when you said:

Sometimes in life, things go unexpectedly and horribly wrong. I can provide my children everything they need in life such as: good character, teach them right and wrong, provide a solid education for them, etc., and they might still end up taking a wrong path.

Bold emphasis added. Focus on it.

One that they can fall back upon in the tough times. I cannot make the choices for my children, but only hope that my teachings guide them to make them stronger.

If you teach your children properly, they won’t need the illusion of choice and will not stray. If your teachings fail to produce prolific offspring you’ve failed as a parent and failed society.

Since I am directly countering your thesis and claim, I will say that the Founding Fathers indeed provided a foundation and guidance, but just as my children must make their life choices, we too have made choices to guide this country to where it at today.

See above.

Apparently my allegory was above your head.

No, it was beneath my feet as it was not an accurate representation of reality, nor did it consider the fact that society will deem you a failure if your children fail. So again, this isn’t about you giving your children instruction, rather, it is about the possibility of taking the wrong path which you introduced to the topic.

Show me the corruption, not the mistakes. Not the culture and societal behaviors of the times.

As stated in the OP, “Yes, but some of you will make excuses by referring to political climate and culture of those times…” Friend, it is highly illogical to say “show me the corruption” and then say to not show you the culture and societal behaviors of the times. I shouldn’t have to compare and contrast the obvious nor should I have to explain such matters of correlation and causation.

I agree. The Republic didn't have a perfectly clean start. Do tell though, which country ever has? Which country that has ever resided upon this Earth has ever gone to such great lengths that the United States of America has to right their wrongs?

I’m going to cut this short as you and most here are relying on what is known as “The Appeal to Common Practice” fallacy.

Where have you derived this opinion though. I do not attack it, but rather seek to understand your view. If it based upon some knowledge, share it with us!

History, and one other member mentioned the “illuminati” as well. I suggest you read that members post as it contains a bit of info you may find useful.

Place yourself into the society of the times. Remove the knowledge you have now and tell me what would you do? Mind you, this is impossible because we know now, that the Native people of this land were not savages, but rather people. Different times, different views. I do not condone them, but I surely understand them.

Filler. If it is impossible why ask me to do it? Because you feel it is a rhetorical question that deserves attention?

By the by, John Adams never owned a slave and had slave labor for his family nor his farm. Him and his wife lamented and anguished over the fact they were so desperately fighting for their freedoms while denying certain groups theirs. It is an unfortunate consequence and black mark upon American History, but nonetheless, one that must be taught and must be understood from all sides to know that there were those in Independence Hall that wish they could have struck out slavery from the get go.

Can you say the same for all the other deadbeats? Speaking of Adams, before he was POTUS, he had no strong history/record of publicly speaking out against slavery.

This could be said to you Empire. At what expense is your rant that you have produced here going to cost? Both directly and indirectly. This could be said of any person in a leadership role. Not everything can be corrected at once. I am gaining the impression that you have never experienced a leadership role, lest you would recognize that sometimes sacrifices, even ones we dread, must be made.

I answered a similar statement in my previous post. Please refer to it.

Not all were slave owners. Most were, you are correct. Again, it was a time period that is completely 180 degrees from where we are today. Remove your subjective self and observe history objectively. The slave traders of Africa and tribes that sold off slaves are just to blame as the buyers and traders in the New World.

What you’re doing is illogical. On one hand you say don’t refer to culture and those times, yet here you are telling me to do exactly that. Yes, Africans sold other Africans, but who still benefits from slavery? The descendents of the Africans (those in Africa) or the descendents of white slave owners and African slaves that survived the trip? As far as a 180? That is up for debate. Yes black people have it better now, but don’t pretend as if things are all chummy for them because they aren’t.

On that note, since you have levied the claim that our Founding Fathers were deadbeats and failures, I provide you with the following quotes. I selected just a few, but there are many more that show not only did they lay down the foundations as best they could to provide the maximum freedoms, but also forewarned those that wish to take up the mantle of self-governance about the dangers that lie in wait.

Most of those quotes were quite meaningless. In regards to the first quote, there is no true liberty or freedom outside of death and this is what many of you fail to grasp. In regards to the second quote, again, there is no true liberty or freedom outside of death. Concerning the third quote, this simply supports what I’m saying. There is no true freedom because one someone is placed in power, over another, they will become corrupt. Concerning the last quote, ROFL!!!!! The people don’t govern anything. TPTB say JUMP and you say “how high” and “for how long?”

ETA: Due to time constraints, and some of you bringing nothing to this thread, I've chosen to ignore a couple of responses.

[edit on 24-3-2010 by EMPIRE]