The Founding Fathers were FAILURES and DEADBEAT DADS.

reply to post by EMPIRE


That is one of the most dishonest, disingenuous posts to ever be posted to ATS. Congratulations.

Propaganda, even though lately it seems to not matter, should be a thing of scorn and ridicule here. This site is not here to spread lies and propaganda. It's supposed to be here to expose lies and propaganda. Perhaps you misunderstood the intent of ATS.

The Dail Koss welcomes this stuff. You might give that site a try. They love hateful propaganda and haters in general there.

reply to post by EMPIRE


As per your own statements:

Your origin is of no importance, you are American. This to me translates to:
I am no one, yet I use the term American loosely.

I am EMPIRE, I am whatever you want me to be. This to me translates as:
I am nothing, I am nobody and I am clueless as to what I should be.

Again, as those previous to me have implored, show some evidence as to what you spew forth.

MajorD is exactly right. You have purposefully created a thread with false information in the title to invoke an inappropriate response from other members, i.e. start an argument. He is correct about the T&C violation, and you put him on ignore? This thread has degraded to a level so low, I feel sorry for you and the hatred you have not only for this country- but for other ATS members.

reply to post by EMPIRE

This depends on what you consider to be freedom. The ability to gorge on fast food? The freedom to waste water? The freedom to drive gas guzzlers? What exactly do you consider to be freedom, and how can one accurately gauge it?

I did not say we had it today. You need to watch your jumping to conclusions. You are you projecting our culture on to theirs. What we have become has little or nothing to do with what the founders tried to set up. The first hundred years of our existence we lived in relative maximum freedom on this country. There is no evidence to the contrary. No other country that I know of has achieved that measure of freedom. It was a simple question now answer it, what other country has achieved the measure of freedom America had despite our problems?

They did. You simply can’t accept it because the concept is so foreign to you, so “out there” you sugar coat it and find excuses.

It is not a matter of my accepting anything it is matter of you proving your premise. What you thought you could spout off and go un-challenged? LOL! Prove they led us to their demise. Where is the evidence? What? You read some crap on the Internet and suddenly you are enlightened beyond everyone else LOL! The evidence points to our squandering the principles of freedom much more then some conspiracy to enslave us by the Founding Fathers..

Refer to the section in my OP where I said people would refer to culture and political climate in an attempt to justify their actions.

Again prove it. Your word alone has no credibility. All people are limited by their cultural mindset and education etc. that is simple logic. That does not change principles of freedom even if those who espouse them don't live up to them fully.

And the constitution does not apply, so people need to stop believing as if it does. In regards to their progeny struggling--no.

I see you did not read my whole post before responding... You say twice in your post I am not their progeny, But I am and I am struggling like most, my Ancestor is the second signer of the Declaration of Independence. and appointed General of the New Hampshire Militia so I am indeed their progeny or posterity and your insistence that I am not only makes you look foolish.

When people are given much, much is required of them. The problem is, you were never really given anything, demand much, and can’t see reality for what it truly is.

This answer is nonsensical and not germane to the topic. Also it further degrades to insults of; You can't see reality your blind etc. as many of your answers often do. You are making the claims my friend the burden of validating them falls on you!

The founders themselves did not have your freedom in mind. This is the point many of you are failing to grasp.

Really I did not know you were in the minds of the founders how did you managed to pull that feat off? And once again your answer degrades to insults that we just simply fail to grasp you superior skills of mind reading 200+ years back into history. Again where is your evidence, prove they did not have it in mind. Because all of their personal and public writings sure seem to show they did have freedom in mind. It might do you well to study them.

Only to those who are blind and devoid of logic due they embody such things. Do you think the natives who are wiped out so this country could be built see them as such?

Ok enough of the insults that is always the last resort of those who cannot support their arguments with fact. Blah blah you must be blind or devoid of logic... Sigh

Continued two posts down...

[edit on 21-3-2010 by hawkiye]

[edit on 21-3-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by EMPIRE

You find it extremely relevant because you’re operating in the realm of the extremely illogical. For example, I know someone who majored in African studies. Guess what? This person is not African and can tell most Africans more about their history than their own people. Therefore, knowing my origin of country is neither a necessity nor a prerequisite...

This Canadian agrees. I've studied US history and I probably know more than most. If I don't know something, I ask and then research. I DON'T come up with theories and then try to adapt history to meld to my theory.

That said:

Yes, you’re lambs being led to the slaughter and the shepherds you placed faith in knew you would follow blindly as they helped orchestrate your very demise.

Calling people out is one sure way of getting their attention.

Now:

However, in the case of the so-called Founding Fathers, you’ve been led to a place of death, famine, disease, racism, hatred, idiocy, madness, deceit, barbarism and whatever abomination your mind can conceive.

You are saying that today's America is the result of the FF? Hardly. It's been the take over of government by the MIC in the last 50 years that has lead us to this point. The opposite of what the FF intended. In fact they even foresaw the need for the 2nd Amendment in case this eventuality came to pass.

You should know this though because you state:

Well, that answer truly depends on your mental stability and ability to think critically. For the reasonably sane and the critical thinker...

To those lacking basic cognitive reasoning, wisdom and sound mind, they accept the treacherous concepts put forth by the so-called Founding Fathers.

If you feel comfortable about this, and your own abilities, I would be up to debate you about this topic in the Debate Forum. Just you and me and judged by DF members. You up for it?

[edit on 21-3-2010 by intrepid]

Continued from two posts above

reply to post by intrepid

America = hegemonic, plutocratic and oligarch all wrapped into one. Are you going to sit there and deny this reality?

I never tried to deny it again you are jumping to conclusions.Today yes but it did not start out that way.

You aren’t part of their progeny. You’re expendable. You don’t matter. There is no free republic. There is no democracy

I am part of the progeny see above. The free republic is still there just that no ones home except a few, it is waiting for us to repopulate it and come out of the federal Municipal Corporation posing as government. Some of us already have.

See the solution: www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 21-3-2010 by hawkiye]

[edit on 21-3-2010 by hawkiye]

Hmmmm....so, Empire, you whine about the FF killing off the natives in America.

I guess you must have missed that little bit about the Spanish doing a fair bit of killing in what would become the southern US.

As I said in another post on this thread, I think they were doing a fine job of genocide prior to the British and French arriving.

reply to post by Blaine91555

That is one of the most dishonest, disingenuous posts to ever be posted to ATS. Congratulations.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, I understand that many on this site come from a specific demographic, and so, I expect you to hold the opinions you do.

Propaganda, even though lately it seems to not matter, should be a thing of scorn and ridicule here. This site is not here to spread lies and propaganda. It's supposed to be here to expose lies and propaganda. Perhaps you misunderstood the intent of ATS.

I’m exposing lies and propaganda. You simply misconstrue the OP. The lies and propaganda put forth is the belief that the founding fathers were good men, had your interest in mind, that the constitution protects you, that things will get better, etc.

The Dail Koss welcomes this stuff. You might give that site a try. They love hateful propaganda and haters in general there.

Why do you equate speaking the truth with hate? I am neither republican/democrat nor am I liberal/conservative.

reply to post by jerico65

Hmmmm....so, Empire, you whine about the FF killing off the natives in America.

I’m not whining. I’m citing the fact that this country was built on bloodshed. You may consider it whining but people died, remember that.

I guess you must have missed that little bit about the Spanish doing a fair bit of killing in what would become the southern US.

We aren’t talking about them. This is not a case of “they did it why not mention them”, because ultimately, “the Spanish” are NOT the major beneficiaries of natives being wiped out.

As I said in another post on this thread, I think they were doing a fine job of genocide prior to the British and French arriving.

See above.


[edit on 21-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by savageheart

As per your own statements:

Your origin is of no importance, you are American. This to me translates to:
I am no one, yet I use the term American loosely.

What it means to you is your choice.

I am EMPIRE, I am whatever you want me to be. This to me translates as:
I am nothing, I am nobody and I am clueless as to what I should be.

See above.

Again, as those previous to me have implored, show some evidence as to what you spew forth.

I have addressed the evidence, it is called history, yet when it was presented, you and others like you, dismiss it or sugar coat it.

Originally posted by EMPIRE

In reality, the so-called Founding Fathers are a paradox. On one hand they are FAILURES and DEADBEAT DADS because they failed to give you something of truth, something tangible that could be passed on. They failed to do their duties as leaders, for they did not instill principles that would contribute to your survival or the advancement of humanity.

Well, obviously they did do something to contribute to our survival, as we are here to discuss what deadbeat dads they were. The only ones who can complain that their survival was not provided for arent here to complain.

And, who said they were perfect? Whose parents are perfect, since we are using the "father" and "deadbeat dad" analogy? They did what they did, and we are here now to do what we need to do to correct their legacy if we find it lacking. After a child turns 18, they need to stop complaining about what their parents did, and what they didnt do, and they need to start making a life for themselves.

They were wise enough to know that they could not know the future, of the minds of their "children." They allowed for us to correct any mistakes they might make, they provided us with the means to do that without revolution. Its up to us to use the tools they so kindly crafted for us to steer our own destiny.

Or we can just sit around and whine because they didnt do it all for us.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by savageheart

 

As per your own statements:

Your origin is of no importance, you are American. This to me translates to:
I am no one, yet I use the term American loosely.

What it means to you is your choice.

I am EMPIRE, I am whatever you want me to be. This to me translates as:
I am nothing, I am nobody and I am clueless as to what I should be.

See above.

Again, as those previous to me have implored, show some evidence as to what you spew forth.

I have addressed the evidence, it is called history, yet when it was presented, you and others like you, dismiss it or sugar coat it.

I believe you just might have a chance now that you have acknowledged "Choice".

I believe you have been misguided into believing things that are what most would consider, "the top surface," instead of delving even further into what you seem to think you have convinced yourself upon as to the matters of the history of a nation built upon blood, sweat, tears and a belief for which you have no common concept of, and of which includes several nationalities that did whatever was necessary to come to this great new land in order to prosper instead of be held down, back by those like you who have their mind set that what you believe to be truth is just truth in your own mind.........

I have to look over my 13 year old's homework as tomorrow is a school day. Shall I help you with yours?

[edit on 21-3-2010 by savageheart]

reply to post by intrepid

This Canadian agrees. I've studied US history and I probably know more than most. If I don't know something, I ask and then research. I DON'T come up with theories and then try to adapt history to meld to my theory.

You are the last person I want agreeing with me and should keep your patronizing to yourself.

Calling people out is one sure way of getting their attention.

Sure is, and I’ve gone page after page addressing most and not relying on help, especially from the helps of the likes of you (or other mods.) I can hold my own here, don’t need you chiming in now.

You are saying that today's America is the result of the FF? Hardly. It's been the take over of government by the MIC in the last 50 years that has lead us to this point. The opposite of what the FF intended. In fact they even foresaw the need for the 2nd Amendment in case this eventuality came to pass.

The FF NEVER intended for anyone to be free except for their people. Everything else was created to keep you in a state of servitude. The constitution, the bill of rights, the SC, it is all designed to keep you in bondage and preserve the will of status quo, not the will of the people.

If you feel comfortable about this, and your own abilities, I would be up to debate you about this topic in the Debate Forum. Just you and me and judged by DF members. You up for it?

NO. Sorry, never gonna happen. The deck is already stacked against me. From mod bias, to member bias, you aren’t gonna sucker me into that type of trap, because the outcome will simply be a “STAR INTREPID not EMPIRE” campaign.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Well, obviously they did do something to contribute to our survival, as we are here to discuss what deadbeat dads they were. The only ones who can complain that their survival was not provided for arent here to complain.

Natives? Africans? Other Europeans?

And, who said they were perfect?

Normally I don’t answer a question with a question, but who is pointing out there transgressions?

Whose parents are perfect, since we are using the "father" and "deadbeat dad" analogy?

And shepherd. No one is perfect, but a line needs to be drawn, and when we’re at a critical time, like we are now, we must go back to the start of this country and see if these men are/were contributors to the problem. They were. They were, and people do not wish to accept it as true because they’re blinded by patriotism, comforts, etc.

They did what they did, and we are here now to do what we need to do to correct their legacy if we find it lacking.

Who’s correcting it? All I see is people saying, “times are bad” or “stand up” yet no one is doing much of anything except for talking. The window of opportunity, if such a thing actually existed, is gone.

After a child turns 18, they need to stop complaining about what their parents did, and what they didnt do, and they need to start making a life for themselves.

Please tell me you have more to add to this…

Or we can just sit around and whine because they didnt do it all for us.

They did NOTHING for you. That is the point you fail to grasp.

reply to post by EMPIRE


So the Founding Fathers weren't perfect, we know that and understand that but what they did was, in their day and age, incredibly brave and revolutionary. Of course they made mistakes along the way, allowing slavery and only having voting rights for white land owners but keep in mind that these were enlightened men fighting other less enlightened ones. Many conferences or congresses were held and many compromises had to be made in order for the nation to ratify the Declaration (and later the Constitution).

Just because they were imperfect and had issues does not mean they were altogether bad people or some sinister shepherds leading us off a cliff. Maybe some go a little far in their heroic romanticization (if that's a word) of the Founding Fathers but regardless of the obsession of some they were indeed revolutionaries.

I think we should build on their ideas of liberty but instead our government seems to do the opposite.

reply to post by EMPIRE


Please stop whining.
No one is out to get you, you're just wrong.

Not only are you wrong, you're forcefully condescending.

reply to post by EMPIRE


Gotcha. Your argument can't stand on its own. I digress.

reply to post by intrepid


Intrepid, what is MIC?

thanks


[edit on 063131p://bSunday2010 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by intrepid

 

Intrepid, what is MIC?

thanks


[edit on 063131p://bSunday2010 by Stormdancer777]

The Military Industrial Complex.

Originally posted by EMPIRE

"The Major" like "The Colonel" is going on ignore, as I feel they are the same person and not worthy of a response.

The Major accepts your unconditional surrender. It comes as no surprise that you are unable to defend your OP and have chosen the cowardly way out via the ignore function. The Major is more than confident in the troops assembled that your continued remediation will be tended to in a complete and thorough manner.

For the record, the Major is his own man, a stern and sober one. The Kernel has a proclivity for drink, and tends to slur his posts. The Major is not the Kernel, and on his best day, the Kernel couldn't be the Major.

Dismissed.