The Founding Fathers were FAILURES and DEADBEAT DADS.

reply to post by ownbestenemy

You have an interesting view going on here but you are using it as a veiled attempt to make a point about what seems to be a beef with the mods here on ATS.

Absolutely not true. I told another member I was going to post this thread in a couple of days. This was before I was wrongly hit with two warnings. All you have to do is click on my name, read my recent posts and you’ll see this. Again, this thread has NOTHING to do with ATS or ATS mods, nothing at all. The mods, admin and owners know that when I have something to say I say it to them DIRECTLY and have never held back. I just want to make this perfectly clear to you and anyone else reading that again, this thread has nothing to do with ATS or a beef with mods.

I would like to some historical findings that back your thesis.

Keep reading.

How could men, 230 years ago, know and dictate the outcome that we are seeing today?

This is like asking how could men write the bible and know people would use it later on down the line. A basic understanding of humans, coupled with a sense of Hegelian dialectic, and you now have what you need to implement a plan that can span centuries.

Sometimes in life, things go unexpectedly and horribly wrong. I can provide my children everything they need in life such as: good character, teach them right and wrong, provide a solid education for them, etc., and they might still end up taking a wrong path.

Because you didn’t remove the illusion of choice. And how will society look at you? As a failure.

Its how they handle and deal with that path and if they attempt to correct that path back to the foundations they were taught that will be the shining moment in their lives.

And this countries foundation was corrupt from the beginning. The genocide of Natives, the slavery of Africans, the mistreatment of the Irish, it’s all there. From the very start this country was founded on principles of bloodshed, mayhem, lies and the transference of power from one group to another. These men did not want independence for all, rather, they wanted independence for themselves, and their offspring, from people just as they were. This is history, this is the historical findings my words are based on, and there is nothing you or anyone else can provide that will remove this blight.

As for your claim that the founding fathers have not provided, Nixie just gave a great example of probably one of the most esteemed historical figure of our times that is greatly under appreciated.

She was addressed.

As a founding father, John Adams was a: family man (never divorced through tribulation and trials), loved his family and his country, fought tooth and nail and with passion (our Declaration may have been written by Jefferson, but it was John Adams who sold it to the people with vigor and steadfast principles).

And what happened to the Natives?

You see, I can provide historical context to the contrary of your thesis, can you do the same to back yours up?

See above. His “love of family and his country” came at the expense of what people? Whether directly, or indirectly, who were harmed as a result of his ambitions?

The other founding figures in our history were much the same. They were ordinary people placed into an extraordinary circumstance. They all had their faults, their shortcomings and their vices.

Slave owners. Genocide of natives, etc. This country was built on blood and to deny this is to deny the truth.


[edit on 21-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Hello ATS, the gut wrenching truth you so love to avoid is once again smacking you in the face. Thread after thread and post after post, many attempt to rise above the herd by rattling off do-gooder speeches, composing new battle cries and standing up for their so-called rights. However, these very people fail to comprehend that a heaping order of calamity was placed centuries ago and is now being served. Yes, you’re lambs being led to the slaughter and the shepherds you placed faith in knew you would follow blindly as they helped orchestrate your very demise. Who are these shepherds? They are your so-called Founding Fathers, the men with a vision of Manifest Destiny, a power structure ruled by their and their biological progenies hand, which was rooted in your grateful servitude and blind patriotism.

What does a shepherd do? A shepherd tends the flock and protects the sheep from attack by wild beasts. A shepherd also leads the sheep to better pastures, a better place to graze and the sheep are content, as they are safe, are able to eat, and multiply, without fear. In some cases, a shepherd can be looked on as a sort of father figure for his guidance is the one keeping the herd alive and leads to sustenance. However, it should be noted that the shepherd is not doing this because he truly cares for the sheep. The shepherd’s real motivation is financial increase (or survival) and such motivation is made tangible by sheering the sheep for wool or by selling the sheep to be slaughtered for consumption. Again, a shepherd can be considered a father figure, for fathers tend to lead their families to better places and protect them. However, in the case of the so-called Founding Fathers, you’ve been led to a place of death, famine, disease, racism, hatred, idiocy, madness, deceit, barbarism and whatever abomination your mind can conceive. You’ve been pillaged for your worth similar to how sheep are sheered. You’ve been fed your hearts desires and now you’re fit for slaughter. In other words, you’re expendable and, your shepherds, your so-called Founding Fathers, are smiling from their graves. However, we should consider the words used in the thread title and see if the Founding Fathers were indeed failures and deadbeats.

Your ancestors fell for these ideologies because they were a broken people, feeble minded and poor in spirit. They weren’t freethinkers, were without purpose, direction and thought, and so they were used—you’re no different. Like a child never weaned from the bottle, in 2010, centuries after the men in question have passed on; you still cling to their fables of equality, life, liberty and happiness. The myth that you’re free has been ingrained in your psyche and you long for the day to see it come to fruition. Sadly, the day will never come for you, as you can’t even realize you’re still stuck living in the past and clutching to your security blanket.

To those lacking basic cognitive reasoning, wisdom and sound mind, they accept the treacherous concepts put forth by the so-called Founding Fathers. They deem them successful in creating an institution of freedom where democracy shines and the Liberty spreads her grace to all who will come. These same people, however, fail to realize that we do not live in a democracy, or a republic, but a place that is one part oligarchy, one part hegemony and one part plutocracy, and so they agree to conform and reinforce antiquated ideas and a piece of paper that have never, and will never, lead to a prolific outcome.

In reality, the so-called Founding Fathers are a paradox. On one hand they are FAILURES and DEADBEAT DADS because they failed to give you something of truth, something tangible that could be passed on. They failed to do their duties as leaders, for they did not instill principles that would contribute to your survival or the advancement of humanity. They did not lead by example, but instead, chose to be hypocrites and presented you with false motivation, myths of happiness, security and nurtured it through the signing of papers and documents that you subconsciously hold above your own humanity. On the other hand, by giving you something to believe in, they were successful in their goals and successful in securing their offsprings place in this world—the problem is, which you fail to see, is you aren’t that offspring.

EMPIRE

************* F A I L *************

There's a historically bibliographical documentary written by an American House Wife who lived during the time of the Revolutionary War that details EVERYTHING about the times, the events, and the people that planned for and executed, then terminated the American Revolutionary War.

This documentary was written in two volumes, by a GENIUS of a woman named Mrs. Mercy Otis Warren, born in the year of our Lord 1728 in Boston, Massachussettes, and lived to die in the year 1814, and published in the year 1805.... Entitled

History of the Rise, Progress, and Termination of the American Revolution

I'm not going to elaborate on the book much. there are copies of it in pdf format online, do a google search for it... download it.... then READ IT ....

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU DO.

"This is the usual course of human conduct, however painful the reflection may be to the patriot in retirement, and to the philosopher absorbed in theoretic disquisitions on human liberty, or the portion of natural and political freedom to which man has a claim. The Game of deception is played over and over to mislead the judgement of men, and work on their enthusiasm, until by their own consent, hereditary crowns and distinctions are fixed, and some scion of royal descent is entailed forever upon them. Thus by habit they are ready to believe that mankind in general are incapable of the enjoyment of that liberty which nature seems to prescribe, and that the mass if the people have not the capacity nor the right to choose their own masters."

~ Mercy Otis Warren, 1805

reply to post by EMPIRE


Oh yes I love the logic here. The Founders in the 1700s owned slaves and did other bad things, so freedom and a government that respects individual rights must be wrong.

reply to post by DarkspARCS


The winners always write, or rewrite history, as they see fit.

reply to post by projectvxn


No, it makes them hypocrites. That was explained in the OP. You're confusing two different things here.

reply to post by EMPIRE


Perhaps, but they were right in the end, and here we are. No one is perfect, if you think morality is confined to the ideology of one man over another you have another thing coming. Some of the Greatest figures in History have done immoral things by our standards. But there are some truths that endure past our mistakes and guide us as we try to become better stewards of the gifts we've been given by just being here. We should protect that, not admonish it.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by projectvxn]

reply to post by hawkiye

So what other country has had the measure of freedom America has had?

This depends on what you consider to be freedom. The ability to gorge on fast food? The freedom to waste water? The freedom to drive gas guzzlers? What exactly do you consider to be freedom, and how can one accurately gauge it?

It's not perfect and we have squandered it but that by no means proves they purposely lead us to our demise.

They did. You simply can’t accept it because the concept is so foreign to you, so “out there” you sugar coat it and find excuses.

The King had his agents in the mix however the founders did their best within the confines and limits of thier culture, education, and understanding. Is their room for improvement? of course.

Refer to the section in my OP where I said people would refer to culture and political climate in an attempt to justify their actions.

It's easy to judge from our cultural perspective but it often does no apply. And by the way some of us are thier progeny and struggling the same as everyone else.

And the constitution does not apply, so people need to stop believing as if it does. In regards to their progeny struggling--no.

America has achieved the greatest measure of freedom in known history under the auspices of the Declaration of Independence an the Constitution.

When people are given much, much is required of them. The problem is, you were never really given anything, demand much, and can’t see reality for what it truly is.

It doesn't mean it's perfect and there is no room for improvement. There is no way to ensure future generations will uphold the principles of freedom so why blame the founders?

The founders themselves did not have your freedom in mind. This is the point many of you are failing to grasp.

Despite the founders human failings they embodied and illustrated many of the principles of freedom in documents to give humanity something to shoot for.

Only to those who are blind and devoid of logic due they embody such things. Do you think the natives who are wiped out so this country could be built see them as such?

And even though we have regressed for a time we will make another leap forward eventually despite the nay sayers, pessimists and do nothings such as yourself.

Nice little insult there.

You use democracy and republic as if they are both the same light which shows your lack of understanding.

No I don’t. I said democracy or republic and said we live in neither, which, obviously means that they are two separate things.

The Founders abhorred democracy and it is not mentioned in our founding documents for it is nothing but mob rules. A free republic has to be based on immutable principles of freedom not subject to a democratic vote. What most people don't realize is the Constitution does not apply to them or the states it was merely a compact governing the federal government whose main role was to decide on how to implement mutual protection of the Several states against attack.

America = hegemonic, plutocratic and oligarch all wrapped into one. Are you going to sit there and deny this reality?

You premise is based on flawed understanding of what the socialist democracy/elected oligarchy feigns as De facto government. The Federal republic was again formed for the purposes of mutual defense the State and county republics were operating long before this compact and worked quite well.

See above.

I fail see how it is the founders fault that thier progeny squandered the principles of freedom and allowed socialist democracy/oligarchy to supplant the free republics!

You aren’t part of their progeny. You’re expendable. You don’t matter. There is no free republic. There is no democracy.

Hold on a second here. Your country of ORIGIN is of no importance?? I simply cannot agree with that statement.

I find it extremely relevant in order to have a complete understanding of what you seem you think you know about and also for clarification in the event you were taught something that may or may not be a falsehood.

Are you afraid to say what your country of origin is? You claim to be American. What American descent are you then? As I understand it, we have several different types of Americans, people who claim to be American, legally or not, so you see, it can be easily spewed from those who may or may not be.

Again, I believe there is relevance in your origins.......

reply to post by EMPIRE


Ok now you're trying to confine the debate And box it up in narrow definitions. No one is justifying slavery or killing the Natives. But I did no such thing. I came to the US 20 years ago. What would you have us do? time travel and change the past so that you can be happy with it?

Edit 29 to 20 years. iPod keys suck.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by projectvxn]

reply to post by projectvxn

Perhaps,

Perhaps? Why can’t you people call a spade a spade? There is no perhaps. These men were hypocrites, and the fact that you confused my words, coupled with your initial posts, and your reluctance to answer the question I posed to you a page ago shows where your head really is. Stop making excuses for them and start questioning without blinders on. You, like others, have shown you’re emotionally attached to these men, these so-called founding fathers, and the pieces of paper they gave birth to—I’m not. Look at things for what they truly are, what this country was founded on, and you’ll see your interest was never in mind.

but they were right in the end, and here we are.

To what end and at the expense of who? Yes we’re here, and what is that supposed to mean? What are we doing while we’re here? Invading other countries? Killing each other? Check. Living in poverty? Check. Illiterate? Check.

No one is perfect, if you think morality is confined to the ideology of one man over another you have another thing coming.

No, you have another thing coming as you fail to realize that one man’s “morality” or vision is another man’s demise.

Some of the Greatest figures in History have done immoral things by our standards. But there are some truths that endure past our mistakes and guide us as we try to become better stewards of the gifts we've been given by just being here. We should protect that, not admonish it.

What are the truths that endure past our mistakes? Our so-called freedoms come at the expense of other people. They always have, and they always will. Instead, you sugar coat things and omit the truth, and this needs to stop.
Now let me ask you this since you and other hold these men in high regards, do you know anyone in this country, today, that you would say is similar to them or capable of leading and getting things back on track?


[edit on 21-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Slave owners. Genocide of natives, etc. This country was built on blood and to deny this is to deny the truth.

Yeah? So? How many other countries were built on blood?

Do a bit of research. I think the Spanish were doing a fine job wasting the natives in America before the British and French came over and took up the job.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by EMPIRE

 

Ok now you're trying to confine the debate And box it up in narrow definitions.

Modus operendi for those that would pontificate and set up topics just to argue. The Kernel was of the belief that ATS was here for logical debate, not spurious topics so that some could banter like children. This won't be seen by the OP though. The Kernel's logic made the member ignore him. Pretty easy to set up a discussion and then mute the logical, dissenting posters that would like to get to the bottom of the tripe.

reply to post by EMPIRE


One of the men that reads history would be Ron Paul. Jesse Ventura, and a handful of others. I'm not ommiting anything. You have a skewed view of freedom. Rights and Liberty don't mean you get to hurt others, this is why the role of government was designed to protect rights. We've had our struggles but you are ignoring so much history, so much advancement.

reply to post by savageheart

Hold on a second here. Your country of ORIGIN is of no importance?? I simply cannot agree with that statement.

What you cannot agree with is of no importance to myself.

I find it extremely relevant in order to have a complete understanding of what you seem you think you know about and also for clarification in the event you were taught something that may or may not be a falsehood.

You find it extremely relevant because you’re operating in the realm of the extremely illogical. For example, I know someone who majored in African studies. Guess what? This person is not African and can tell most Africans more about their history than their own people. Therefore, knowing my origin of country is neither a necessity nor a prerequisite, especially when it was implied that I’m some spy/disinfo agent or that some Americans don’t hold the beliefs I do.

Are you afraid to say what your country of origin is?

Are you paying attention? I already answered the question. Here it is again:

America, but my country of origin is not important.

Now let us move on.

You claim to be American. What American descent are you then?

That, along with gender, is something I will never reveal (unless by accident.) I’ve stated this many times in the past and I say it here. No one here knows what race/ethnicity/culture I am and no one here knows what gender I am. Simply put, EMPIRE is whatever you feel you want EMPIRE to be.

As I understand it, we have several different types of Americans, people who claim to be American, legally or not, so you see, it can be easily spewed from those who may or may not be.

I was born here. My Parents were born here, their parents were born here. Their parents were born here and so on. We trace our roots to two groups of people on two different continents, that is all you need to know.

Again, I believe there is relevance in your origins.......

And your belief has been deemed illogical and insufficient when it comes to the merits of my premise.



[edit on 21-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by EMPIRE


The Major hasn't read such misguided sophomoric drivel which would be a polite way of saying FAILURE; since the last time the Major inspected the latrines at the Leavenworth DB. A rather juvenile attempt at baiting and unabashed internet discussion board trolling. The Major, realizing that a complete remediation of the precepts of the OP would be to much of an intellectual burden for it's author. The Major instead will focus on one small segment of the title and text that is patently false. The OP states that our great nation's Founding Fathers were "deadbeat dads." Let the Major provide a brief discussion of what a "deadbeat dad" is, and why our Founding Fathers could not be labeled as such.

The concept of the "deadbeat dad" came on the heels of the Bradley Amendment which establishes rigid adherence to court ordered financial support for children fathered regardless of marital status.

Child support is a rather modern concept, with the international efforts to mandate some form of financial support circa 1956.

Child support in the United States is generally addressed on a state by state basis with the exception of the aforementioned Bradley Amendment.

Deadbeat parents is a modern term, used more by advocacy groups and the media.

The term deadbeat parent is a descriptive term used more by child support advocacy groups than by Governmental Child Support Agencies. Child Support Agencies described clients either as in compliance, not in compliance or criminally non compliant. Compliance is judged by the paying party's performance in meeting the terms of the Child Support court order. However, some local authorities have mounted campaigns targeting so called "deadbeats" and eliciting a more excited emotional public response.

Now that the Major has provided the framework in which an individual could be identified as a "deadbeat dad." The Major will even ignore the fact that the Founding Fathers had long passed from this mortal coil and into the pages of history long before any legal precedent had been adjudicated.

Please provide the Major and the troops assembled, documentation of a Founding Father who was ordered by a court of law to pay child support, and the subsequent documentation that said Founding Father failed to do so. Absent that documentation the Major would assert that you have knowing posted false information which would be a direct violation of the Terms & Conditions Of Use.

1). Posting: You will not post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate.

There isn't enough KP and latrine duty in the world for you recruit.

Dismissed.

reply to post by Major Discrepancy


"The Major" like "The Colonel" is going on ignore, as I feel they are the same person and not worthy of a response.

NOTE: If your post had come from someone else I'd actually respond to it like I've responded ot everyone else so far.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

[edit on 21-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by Kernel Korn


I agree Kernel....This individual seems to be stumped as to my post as well.

Second line for posterity.....or something similar.

reply to post by savageheart


How am I stumped when I just showed you I answered your question and just gave you a logical reason as to why your question is not important.

Being from America, or not being from America, has no bearing. If being from this country is important, or knowledge of this country hinges on being here, why is it some are able to major in American studies even though they aren't from here? On the flipside, why is it many Americans fail history each year?

reply to post by projectvxn

One of the men that reads history would be Ron Paul.

LOL! Would I be poisoning the well if I mentioned the racist rhetoric he was known for? All of that aside, Ron Paul can do nothing for you or anyone else in this country. He can barely do something for himself, and the only reason he’s “known” is because of the internet and conspiracy sites such as ATS.

Jesse Ventura,

LOL! A person that has monetized “conspiracy theorist” content and left his own state in the dust. Imagine that…

and a handful of others.

Who?

I'm not ommiting anything. You have a skewed view of freedom. Rights and Liberty don't mean you get to hurt others, this is why the role of government was designed to protect rights. We've had our struggles but you are ignoring so much history, so much advancement.

You’re omitting a great deal and not admitting much. For this reason you compromise and shift the blame. Such is typical for those who have great confirmation bias.

Ok now you're trying to confine the debate And box it up in narrow definitions.

No I’m not, that is why I asked the guy questions.

No one is justifying slavery or killing the Natives.

You all are. The more you defend the so-called Founding Fathers, and the more excuses you make, you’re doing exactly that.

But I did no such thing.

Sure you did. When you lift no finger to help them now it is as if you did it. When you lift no finger to help the poor it is as if you did it. When you lift no finger to speak out and stop the terrors committed against the children of Iraq you did it. Directly, or indirectly you are responsible. Let me put this to you, it doesn’t matter if you’re religious or not, but what did Jesus say about visiting the poor, helping people, etc and how that relates to treating him? See, you people feel as if you weren’t alive, or directly involved, that you don’t have an obligation to change or admit that mistakes were made and should rectified. That is part of your problem.

I came to the US 20 years ago. What would you have us do? time travel and change the past so that you can be happy with it?

Please clarify your question, and tell me how such an answer is valuable to this discussion.

Sorry, the real founding fathers are more like Lorenzo Ricci the Jesuit General and Charles Caroll. People like Jefferson, Washington, Franklin where promoted to make the 97% that didn't want the war feel good about what was happening. The 3% where tied directly to the Jesuits or the Masons (unknowingly taking orders from the Jesuits). Yes, the "Supermen" founding fathers may have been fairly ordinary in some respects. But they, being mason or mason inspired where acting for a cause they thought was just. The promotion of the Supermen Founding Fathers as "dark" can either be used to:
1. enlighten people to the understanding that the founding of the uSA as independent of England was arranged by the Jesuits to destroy anti-Jesuit and anti-Catholic inclinations in both countries and to set the foundation for the uSA to be the whip for the NWO.
2. To demoralize the uSA and set the stage for a fake new birth of the uSA as part of the NWO scheme with a new identity as something "good" to fool the masses.

I'm guessing #2 is your cause?

What was done is ultimately for good reasons far beyond and diametrically opposite to what the Jesuits intended. They where simply the catalysts used by their strong inclinations.