The Founding Fathers were FAILURES and DEADBEAT DADS.

reply to post by intrepid


Thank you, I tried to figure it out, thanks again.

reply to post by hawkiye

I did not say we had it today.

So why question the measure of freedom America has had? I mean if we’re talking about the past, and comparing and contrasting America to other countries, what exactly are we looking at? Are we going to consider how women couldn’t vote? Are we going to consider how Africans were used as slaves? Or, are we going to cherry pick and use what suits us for the moment, which is something you obviously want to do…

You need to watch your jumping to conclusions. You are you projecting our culture on to theirs.

No, YOU need to stop jumping to conclusions and need to see that I’m not projecting my culture onto theirs. In the OP, I already said people like you would refer to culture and a different political climate, but you missed that memo. Because you missed it, you failed to see I’m calling these men hypocrites, and that their actions/deeds were different from word.

What we have become has little or nothing to do with what the founders tried to set up.

It has everything to do with it.

The first hundred years of our existence we lived in relative maximum freedom on this country.

Who is the “we” you’re referring to? Africans? Native Americans? This isn’t a rhetorical question, who are you referring to?

There is no evidence to the contrary.

See above.

No other country that I know of has achieved that measure of freedom.

What is freedom and how do we measure it?

It was a simple question now answer it, what other country has achieved the measure of freedom America had despite our problems?

It is not a simple question, as the questions I asked earlier, and now ask you prohibit you from actually looking in the mirror and accepting the truth. You talk about the measure of freedom, yet you don’t even say what you think it is, so why should I paint myself in a corner by answering it? You either rephrase the question, answer the questions that will allow me to answer in a way that will lead you to understand what is being conveyed, or you move on. No matter, the choice is yours.

It is not a matter of my accepting anything it is matter of you proving your premise. What you thought you could spout off and go un-challenged?

Going unchallenged is for those who obviously enjoy bias or sycophants. I have no problem with people disagreeing, which for the most part, is why I’ve been addressing many of you.

LOL! Prove they led us to their demise.

R-E-A-D the OP again, then go pick up a history book, look outside or tune in to current events.

Where is the evidence?

History, coupled with inductive and deductive reasoning is the evidence. I’ve stated this many times and provided examples, so stop asking redundant questions and read.

What? You read some crap on the Internet and suddenly you are enlightened beyond everyone else LOL! The evidence points to our squandering the principles of freedom much more then some conspiracy to enslave us by the Founding Fathers..

See above and this has nothing to do with reading anything on the net (especially on this site.)

Again prove it. Your word alone has no credibility. All people are limited by their cultural mindset and education etc. that is simple logic. That does not change principles of freedom even if those who espouse them don't live up to them fully.

Evidence has been prevented, but you, and others, use word-jugglery and charlatan like movements to sidestep the truth.

I see you did not read my whole post before responding... You say twice in your post I am not their progeny, But I am and I am struggling like most, my Ancestor is the second signer of the Declaration of Independence. and appointed General of the New Hampshire Militia so I am indeed their progeny or posterity and your insistence that I am not only makes you look foolish.

Sure, buddy.

This answer is nonsensical and not germane to the topic. Also it further degrades to insults of; You can't see reality your blind etc. as many of your answers often do. You are making the claims my friend the burden of validating them falls on you!

You people are blind because you are emotionally attached to the FF doctrine and are predisposed to believing madness. Here I am giving you history, and citing history as evidence, yet many of you refer to that as “whining” or whatever madness you can conceive. The problem is, again, you were never given anything of value. Because you were never given anything of value, what you were given, you place above your own humanity.

Really I did not know you were in the minds of the founders how did you managed to pull that feat off?

Well, the fact some of them owned slaves is proof enough. The fact the SC is used to uphold the constitution yet keep you in bondage is also proof.

And once again your answer degrades to insults that we just simply fail to grasp you superior skills of mind reading 200+ years back into history.

If anything, I’m the one being insulted. I have to take my time to correct readers when they make false accusations, have had veiled threats leveled against me in this thread, have been called names, etc. Yet I’m still here, answering most of you, and not relying on mods/admins to do their duties. However, if you feel you are being insulted, quote the insult and let us examine it, or report it to a mod.

Again where is your evidence, prove they did not have it in mind. Because all of their personal and public writings sure seem to show they did have freedom in mind. It might do you well to study them.

I’ve provided ample evidence. Please refer to previous posts to other readers as well as yourself.

Ok enough of the insults that is always the last resort of those who cannot support their arguments with fact. Blah blah you must be blind or devoid of logic... Sigh

No insults, but logical answers and observations derived from the type of posts you people make.


[edit on 21-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by intrepid


No, it can stand on it's own, I'm simply not going to engage you in a kangeroo court. You're using a fallacy even though I told you the reason why it ain't happening.

Originally posted by EMPIRE

They did NOTHING for you. That is the point you fail to grasp.

I just disagree. They did plenty for us. You have the right to live in a country and complain bitterly about everything, publicly. In some countries, you could be hunted down and killed or jailed for speaking the way you do about the "establishment." But you arent. Nor am I. Thats part of what they did for us.

They also set up a system that allows us to choose our leaders. How could they have known that Americans would be too busy watching TV and talking on cell phones and partying to care enough about their own country and its government to take the time to ensure the people they voted for worked for their interests? How could they have known that roughly half of us would be too damned lazy to go vote at all?

Again you make the mistake of thinking that the founding fathers were all of one mind. Much like you make the mistake of thinking all whites are of one mind in some arguments. In truth, they had some pretty great ideological differences, and they didnt all agree. There was a lot of compromising of values and ideology on their parts to come up with the blueprint for our country. OUR country. Yours too. It doesnt matter how you or your ancestors got here, you arent separate from America, so that you can stand back and complain about her. You ARE her. As we all are. No matter what ethnicity, as long as we are legal citizens.

You are every bit as much to blame for the mess our country is currently in as any one of us. Perhaps if rather than feel sorry for yourself, or some group of people long dead, you had put your considerable energy and passion into making our nation a better place, via politics or public works, you would not have so much to complain about.

I have little compassion for those who do nothing but criticize. Or for those who are Americans who think pointing the finger at others and the dead is some kind of solution for our problems. You and people like you are a big part of our problem. Because rather than help yourself and your country, you would rather tear your country down and apart.

Mind you I am not supporting individual politicians. But I do love the country. And if the politicians are bad, there is no one to blame for that but ourselves. You dont have to learn all your politics from TV. The media does control, and buy and sell elections, but thats our fault. Not theirs. No one makes us too lazy to get involved on a local basis, and pressure those politicians to put pressure all the way up.


Face it, you arent alone in wishing "big daddy" would take care of everything for you, and make everything ok, and tuck you in bed at night and chase of f the monsters in the closet. Most Americans wish that were the case. But it isnt. Its our job to make our country safe and good, and to make it work for all of us as a people. And WE are failing in that. Not the founding fathers.

I dont give a hot damn that I wasnt included as someone with "rights" in the original interpretation of the Constitution. That was then. I am included now, and I am included because they had the foresight to allow for amendments to that Constitution that did not need to be won with civil war. Thats what they did for me. I dont care that they didnt do it intentionally for me or my kind. They DID do it for me and my kind. And thats enough for me.

Some people just prefer to focus on what they dont have, and they have absolutely no appreciation for what they do have. Im not one of those people. I acknowledge the imperfection of my country, but I am grateful to be in it. Here more than anywhere else in the world our country is what we make of it. Its not our nation or its founders fault we are by and large a bunch of spoiled, intellectually lazy, ungrateful children.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

I just disagree. They did plenty for us. You have the right to live in a country and complain bitterly about everything, publicly.

The right to live in a country? At the expense of who? The blood of slaves? The destruction of entire cultures and people who already had a life?

In some countries, you could be hunted down and killed or jailed for speaking the way you do about the "establishment." But you arent. Nor am I. Thats part of what they did for us.

When did this country stop doing so? When MLK Jr was killed? When the CIA infiltrated Malcolm X’s circle?

They also set up a system that allows us to choose our leaders.

With that I shouldn’t even continue replying to your post. We choose our leaders? On a local level that might be true. When it comes to POTUS, no.

How could they have known that Americans would be too busy watching TV and talking on cell phones and partying to care enough about their own country and its government to take the time to ensure the people they voted for worked for their interests? How could they have known that roughly half of us would be too damned lazy to go vote at all?

I’ve explained this in earlier posts. An understanding of human needs, coupled with an understanding of the concepts of Hegelian dialectic (which actually predate Hegel) and there you have it. If you do not understand that, I can give you something in the realm of psychology known as outcome based thinking.
www.winstonbrill.com...

Again you make the mistake of thinking that the founding fathers were all of one mind.

They were, this is how they achieved their goal.

Much like you make the mistake of thinking all whites are of one mind in some arguments.

False, I’ve never stated that all whites are of one mind, and there is no one on this site who can quote me on that. What I have said, which you obviously confuse, is that all whites in America experience what is known as White Privilege. The two, white privilege and whites being of one mind, are two completely different things.

In truth, they had some pretty great ideological differences, and they didnt all agree. There was a lot of compromising of values and ideology on their parts to come up with the blueprint for our country. OUR country. Yours too.

It is not our country. It is “THEIR” country and you’re expendable.

It doesnt matter how you or your ancestors got here, you arent separate from America, so that you can stand back and complain about her. You ARE her. As we all are. No matter what ethnicity, as long as we are legal citizens.

My line is, how shall I say it, “LOCKED OUT” therefore, it does matter how we got here, and so I’m not “her”.

You are every bit as much to blame for the mess our country is currently in as any one of us.

How so? Because I’m speaking the truth and forcing you people to look in the mirror? Because I’m going to the root of the problem and presenting you all with political iconoclasm? Or how about because I said I won’t give up, will continue to help, but realize on a macro level nothing will change?

Perhaps if rather than feel sorry for yourself, or some group of people long dead, you had put your considerable energy and passion into making our nation a better place, via politics or public works, you would not have so much to complain about.

See above, and I actually do public works (which I’ve shared with a select few here)

I have little compassion for those who do nothing but criticize. Or for those who are Americans who think pointing the finger at others and the dead is some kind of solution for our problems. You and people like you are a big part of our problem. Because rather than help yourself and your country, you would rather tear your country down and apart.

I have little compassion for people who only speak out when their rights and comforts are on the chopping block. I’ve provided solutions to the problem, but the fact is, you people don’t see the problem as a problem because you’re emotionally attached and have severe bias. Therefore, it is hard for you to think outside of the box and question your reality.

Mind you I am not supporting individual politicians. But I do love the country. And if the politicians are bad, there is no one to blame for that but ourselves. You dont have to learn all your politics from TV. The media does control, and buy and sell elections, but thats our fault. Not theirs. No one makes us too lazy to get involved on a local basis, and pressure those politicians to put pressure all the way up.

Listen, it doesn’t matter who you vote for when it comes to the big game. Everything is RIGGED, and you can only watch the game, from the nose bleed section, but guess what? Your ticket costs more! In fact, your tickets fund the entire game!

Face it, you arent alone in wishing "big daddy" would take care of everything for you, and make everything ok, and tuck you in bed at night and chase of f the monsters in the closet. Most Americans wish that were the case. But it isnt. Its our job to make our country safe and good, and to make it work for all of us as a people. And WE are failing in that. Not the founding fathers.

There is no “BIG DADD” or anyone coming to help/save us. As I’ve said in another thread, this cycle will repeat.

I dont give a hot damn that I wasnt included as someone with "rights" in the original interpretation of the Constitution. That was then. I am included now, and I am included because they had the foresight to allow for amendments to that Constitution that did not need to be won with civil war. Thats what they did for me. I dont care that they didnt do it intentionally for me or my kind. They DID do it for me and my kind. And thats enough for me.

If you give a slave the illusion of freedom they will always be a slave. No one did anything for you. No one had your interest in mind, realize this fact and you’ll see the bigger picture.

Some people just prefer to focus on what they dont have, and they have absolutely no appreciation for what they do have. Im not one of those people. I acknowledge the imperfection of my country, but I am grateful to be in it. Here more than anywhere else in the world our country is what we make of it. Its not our nation or its founders fault we are by and large a bunch of spoiled, intellectually lazy, ungrateful children.

No home training yet we’re exactly like our founding fathers…


[edit on 21-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

I ask you this in all earnest:

Do you not appreciate the fact that you no longer have to actually get up off your a$$ to change channels on the television set?

Do not appreciate the fact that you no longer have to walk up sets of stairs to get to the top of a building thanks to Otis?

Do you not appreciate having what is called a refrigerator as opposed to an "ice box," to prolong perishable items?

Do you not appreciate the ability to come and go as you please, (as you have proclaimed yourself an American), at will?

Do you not appreciate the fact that you, instead of absolutely having to grow your own produce, can go out, on your own free will, (see above), and procure that which of you wish to sustain yourself?

Do you not appreciate the fact that you, instead of having to maintain a FARM, those animals on said farm with feed and cleaning of the pens etc, washing and the daily maintenance of said farm/ animals, in which you wish to provide sustenance to not only but your family?

Etc etc etc

Do you not understand that due to our FOUNDING FATHERS efforts, WE, heh, as TRUE AMERICANS, are able to have done so and continue to do so in moving forward?

Yes, we have had our trials and tribulations, but tread lightly lest ye get bit.......by many in the nest.

Originally posted by EMPIRE

The right to live in a country? At the expense of who? The blood of slaves? The destruction of entire cultures and people who already had a life?

Ok Empire, riddle me this. What country do you suggest was NOT built on the destruction of peoples and the blood of slaves?

Name me one of these countries.

Not the Native Americans, in case you were thinking of going there, they were happily slaughtering each other in conflicts over resources and they slaved each other too. They just didnt leave a big material culture for all their bloodshed and slaving. Whom else? The Maya? The Inca? Egypt? Other parts of Africa? Where are these idyllic humans who did not slay others or steal their labor or resources to promote their own survival?

reply to post by savageheart



I ask you this in all earnest:

Do you not appreciate the fact that you no longer have to actually get up off your a$$ to change channels on the television set?

No, as I don’t watch much tv. I spend a lot of time researching and reading. My spare time, is spent surfing the web, gardening, some video gaming, and other things.

Do not appreciate the fact that you no longer have to walk up sets of stairs to get to the top of a building thanks to Otis?

I actually prefer the stairs as I don’t want to be stuck in an elevator in case an emergency happens.

Do you not appreciate having what is called a refrigerator as opposed to an "ice box," to prolong perishable items?

No. And I say this because our food has changed so much that refrigeration is something that lasts shortly.

Do you not appreciate the ability to come and go as you please, (as you have proclaimed yourself an American), at will?

Americans cannot come and go as they please. If I want to leave the country I must have proper documentation, the same can be said when I enter. Moreover, I cannot go where I please as I am different from most people. Can a white guy walk the worst streets of watts when he pleases? Can a black guy walk the suburbs of Boston when he pleases? Maybe, but what are the possible repercussions of such folly?

Do you not appreciate the fact that you, instead of absolutely having to grow your own produce, can go out, on your own free will, (see above), and procure that which of you wish to sustain yourself?

My father was a “farm boy” and I have a green thumb myself. I’m going to plant tomatoes, corn, squash, mustards, string peas, potatoes and other fruits and veggies. I recently had part of the yard rotor tilled and it’s ready to go.

Do you not appreciate the fact that you, instead of having to maintain a FARM, those animals on said farm with feed and cleaning of the pens etc, washing and the daily maintenance of said farm/ animals, in which you wish to provide sustenance to not only but your family?

See above. My family has enough land to grow for ourselves, and enough land to raise animals. I, myself, am familiar with the upkeep of animals as I used to help a friend with his dog breeding business.

Etc etc etc

Now how is any of this remotely important?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
I have little compassion for people who only speak out when their rights and comforts are on the chopping block. I’ve provided solutions to the problem, but the fact is, you people don’t see the problem as a problem because you’re emotionally attached and have severe bias. Therefore, it is hard for you to think outside of the box and question your reality.

By the way, I think you may be a little deluded on this issue. Your speaking our for "people of color" IS you only speaking out when your rights and comforts are the issue. I have yet to hear you complain about things in a holistic way, for the benefit of all Americans. I hear you complaining loudly because you perceive your self as coming up on the short end. In fact, you willfully overlook any oppression and discrimination against those you consider "not my group."

And personally, I do not believe for one moment that in those times when discrimination swings in your favor that you decry discrimination on principle. You certainly havent in any thread I have been on. There is a big difference between being opposed to oppression and discrimination in general and being opposed to your own self being oppressed and discriminated against.

As for MLK et al, black people were not the only ones to die for civil rights. At that time in our nations history, we seemed to have a lot of people assasinated for a lot of reasons, dont forget that JFK and RFK were assassinated too, for other reasons. Thats is/was part and parcel of being a public figure. Sometimes crazy people and/or political or ideological enemies decide the best thing to do to stop you is kill you. It certainly isnt limited to that historical time frame, and it absolutely wasnt limited to people with a strong dose of melanin.

Not that I in any way condone it, but lets get real here, it isnt just a black issue in America. People who rock the boat in a big and public way are running the risk of becoming martyred. Its been that way in virtually every society we have historical writings of, for as long as we have record.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Please stick to the topic. You're making false accusations, and if I say anything to the contrary I'll be hit with a warning (like I was earlier.) Again, stick to the topic and contribute, or move on. This thread is to discuss the political madness of America at it's very roots.

We must believe your premise or only comment accordingly. Sounds like you have been to long at one of our fine liberal universities my friend. Like the guy said your premise is falulty.

reply to post by Logarock


The person didn't understand the premise, and I've already said I don't endorse liberals or conservatives.

For the most part i think our founding were very smart and did the best to their knowlege,you cant blame them for what has happened in time since.They warned, but never made law ,of a central bank.our capitalist system,greed,little by little bypassing the constitution.you can blame lobbyists,corrupt polititians,and the voters who elect reps without knowing very much about them.secrecy,foreign policy we were warned.lies deception,our founders knew plenty.fed.gov was never intended to be so big we allowed it to happen

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by hawkiye

R-E-A-D the OP again, then go pick up a history book, look outside or tune in to current events.

What part of "the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim" do you not understand?

History, coupled with inductive and deductive reasoning is the evidence. I’ve stated this many times and provided examples, so stop asking redundant questions and read.

Actually I have studied the history surrounding this nation quite substantially and you have provided nothing but your biased opinion.

Evidence has been prevented, but you, and others, use word-jugglery and charlatan like movements to sidestep the truth.

Wait let me get this straight first you say you have provided evidence which is a lie you have provided nothing but opinion, then you say evidence has been prevented... So which is it?

You people are blind because you are emotionally attached to the FF doctrine and are predisposed to believing madness. Here I am giving you history, and citing history as evidence, yet many of you refer to that as “whining” or whatever madness you can conceive. The problem is, again, you were never given anything of value. Because you were never given anything of value, what you were given, you place above your own humanity.

Ah excuse me you have cited nothing and only given your opinion without a single citation of history, try again as this is getting ridiculous.

Well, the fact some of them owned slaves is proof enough. The fact the SC is used to uphold the constitution yet keep you in bondage is also proof.

Again this is nothing but your opinion, since you don't seem to understand what "evidence" is let me clue you in. You need to site some specific examples of case cites of how the supreme court upholding the constitution keeps people in bondage. You see you made the claim now you must prove your claim, it is not up to me or anyone else to disprove your claim since there is no need because you have not yet established any evidence that it is true.

The fact that some men did not live up to the principles of freedom does in no way negate said principles as true and correct.

On the contrary it is the SC's lack of upholding the constitution and stepping outside thier scope of authority that keeps people in bondage.

If anything, I’m the one being insulted

LOL! Oh please this does not even dignify an answer.

I’ve provided ample evidence. Please refer to previous posts to other readers as well as yourself.

Oh my, I hate to break it to you but YOUR OPINION IS NOT EVIDENCE. Your premise that the founders planned our demise is far from proven by pointing to a few of thier human failings. On the contrary the results of the republic they set up speak for themselves (until it was overthrown) that despite the problems and flaws America did achieve a measure of freedom un-precedented in known history. As has been said thier is room for improvement of course.

Does this discount slavery and the plight of the native Americans? Of course not the principles of freedom hold true even if they have been denied to certain people in the past by flawed human beings. The ideal is to extend them to all peoples and nations not disparage them and discard them because the men who first tried to implement them to the measure they were able were flawed human beings as we all are. Despite thier imperfect implementation America was a huge step forward from the thousands of years of vassal lord feudalism before it.

Do we have a ways to go? Of course but let us not throw the baby out with the bath water! Hopefully the troubled times we see now are a prelude to new even greater leap forward then our founders made! So please lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!

[edit on 21-3-2010 by hawkiy

[edit on 21-3-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by EMPIRE


I am both appalled yet amused at your responses.

The question wasn't whether you watch TV or not. I am reminded that as with my child of 13 years of age, I must be absolutely specific in my dialogue. With that said, my point was whether or not you could appreciate the fact of such ingenuity brought forth through individual conception and freedom to pursue that concept into reality. You obviously have mistaken "researching" for just searching. Again, where is your proof of what you spew and / or researched? I am however inclined to believe the following as to your spare time: surfing the web, which does not constitute research, (refer to the above), video gaming, (shocker), and whatever "other things" are.

I will admit that I have not done any statistical research regarding stairwells over an elevator, however, I do believe that I would prefer my chances in the elevator as opposed to being trapped in a smoke filled stairwell full of stampeding people.

Your response to refrigeration is as invalid as your previous posts and actually shows your lack of thorough understanding of what it can be used for.

I do apologize that you feel "different" from most people, any clue as to why? You are allowed to come and go as you please. There are specific reasons as to why proper documentation is needed, again, a lack of fully understanding what you think you understand. As to "watts and Boston," SURE! Whether an individual would want to or not would be of their own accord.....choice.

So, your family has enough land to grow food for yourselves? That is simply an amazing statement to me with regard to your bashing posts against those who paved the way for your family to have such.

And finally, you are familiar with the upkeep of a farm and/ or farm animals due to the fact that a friend bred dogs???? Are you seriously serious?

This is all very important and relevant as you seem to not have a clue that our FF helped to make all this possible.

I bid you a good night and please, do a little more research.

Hi there, EMPIRE, ol' buddy ol' friend...how about some more steamed crabs while you're burning the US flag and the history books...

The founding fathers weren't perfect... seems like they were vulnerable, made some poor choices, but they had guts too...many lost their homes and their lives to the Crown during the Revolution.

They had some pretty good ideas too. Some of which became rights...the very rights you are using now. And although I don't agree with you and your premise, I will grant you the priviledge of Freedom of Expresion.

One other right you might consider since I see a pattern in your posts... you have the right to leave the United States....maybe find a country more suitable to your political leanings....especially since the US is dead and we have such a terrible life and stuff.

I wonder if they have steamed crabs there...? This is an inside joke between my good friend, EMPIRE, and myself....LOL

reply to post by EMPIRE


The Founding Fathers were Men. Imperfect as you or I. Products of their time and the beliefs of their time.

It is the document and what it states that is relevant. A persons perception of the Founders, based on imperfect accounts of history and personal biases not relevant to their time, does not matter.

On the foundation of a belief in the power of the Free Market, unencumbered by government control as it was in the country they had escaped, they established the core of the greatest society in our known history. Now we are faced with those who would return us to failed policies of the past. Those who ignore history to their own peril.

To imply that any personal indiscretions by the Founding Fathers is relevant today and to that document we call the Constitution is intellectually dishonest.

Too many respond to our corrupt government by hating their country. We in fact need to love our country and show our love by doing whatever we can to fix it and return it to the country once revered by the world. Those who turn to hate and give up are the problem. It is they who allowed this to happen.

reply to post by hawkiye

What part of "the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim" do you not understand?

What part of you have been provided proof do you not understand? (Also, you need to brush up on debate, as there are instances where the burden of proof does not lie with the person making the claim.) Most importantly, do you even understand the premise? If so, why don’t you tell me what you think it is, so I can correct you and bring you up to speed with reality.

Actually I have studied the history surrounding this nation quite substantially and you have provided nothing but your biased opinion.

My opinion isn’t biased and I have provided evidence. You simply are repeating the same thing over and over even though I’ve actually answered you. The more you continue to do this, the more inclined I will be to ignore you. As previously stated, this countries foundation was corrupt from the beginning. The genocide of Natives, the slavery of Africans, the mistreatment of the Irish, it’s all there. From the very start this country was founded on principles of bloodshed, mayhem, lies and the transference of power from one group to another. These men did not want independence for all, rather, they wanted independence for themselves, and their offspring, from people just as they were. This is history, this is the historical findings my words are based on, and there is nothing you or anyone else can provide that will remove this blight.

Wait let me get this straight first you say you have provided evidence which is a lie you have provided nothing but opinion, then you say evidence has been prevented... So which is it?

I’ve provided evidence but due to your inability to even consider what is being posted, you say there is no evidence. For example, you ask questions pertaining to “the measure of freedom [of] America”, yet when I tell you to either rephrase the question, answer the questions that will allow me to answer in a way that will lead you to understand what is being conveyed, or move on--you move on. This leads me to believe your entire agenda is one of circle logic and derailment, and to be honest, I’m not going to keep going back and forth with you. You did it with the democracy/republic thing and I had to correct YOU, you’re doing it with me telling you history has all the evidence you need, you’re doing it when you fail to address the compare and contrast scenario I mentioned in my previous reply to you.

Wait let me get this straight first you say you have provided evidence which is a lie you have provided nothing but opinion, then you say evidence has been prevented... So which is it?

That was a simple typo, we’ve all made them in this thread. Me probably more so because I have to reply to a multitude of people because I don’t want it to seem as if I’m avoiding anyone. However, evidence is being prevented in the case that confirmation bias and other issues prevent you people from moving past the emotional detachment you have with the founding fathers.

Ah excuse me you have cited nothing and only given your opinion without a single citation of history, try again as this is getting ridiculous.

Several citations have been given. The hypocrisy of the FF has been presented, the destruction of natives has been presented, and the SC keeps you in bondage. You either ADDRESS these or you move on, but simply saying “it isn’t evidence” when I tell you it is evidence and that we need to discuss it is a waste of my time. Telling me I’m confusing republic and democracy, when I clearly stated we are/live in neither is a waste of my time when the FACTS show we are not. So are you going to address it? Hardly.

Again this is nothing but your opinion, since you don't seem to understand what "evidence" is let me clue you in. You need to site some specific examples of case cites of how the supreme court upholding the constitution keeps people in bondage. You see you made the claim now you must prove your claim, it is not up to me or anyone else to disprove your claim since there is no need because you have not yet established any evidence that it is true.

You still don’t get it. Because you hold the Constitution to high standards, wishful thinking, confirmation bias and other logical defects, you go in circles and fool yourself into thinking nothing has been presented. Here, let me prove this to you once and for all:
What is my premise? I’ll watch as you either avoid these questions like you cherry picked the previous post (something you’ll never see me doing) or you’ll present something that shows you don’t understand the premise. Since you don’t understand the premise, you most likely will not understand the evidence, and you won’t understand the evidence for reasons already stated.

The fact that some men did not live up to the principles of freedom does in no way negate said principles as true and correct.

Did you read one of my replies to the guy who has his pic in his avatar? I don’t remember his name, but he made a comment/question similar to the one you’re making/asking now. The answer I gave him is applicable in this case.

On the contrary it is the SC's lack of upholding the constitution and stepping outside thier scope of authority that keeps people in bondage.

Again, the SC is designed to uphold the protection of the status quo. I’m sorry, but unless you’re part of them, you simply eat the crumbs falling from masters table.

LOL! Oh please this does not even dignify an answer.

No, it does. You said you were being insulted, so I provided evidence to the contrary. So now it’s a laughing matter? You better make the next response your best because if you don’t you’ll be going on ignore as well.

Oh my, I hate to break it to you but YOUR OPINION IS NOT EVIDENCE. Your premise that the founders planned our demise is far from proven by pointing to a few of thier human failings. On the contrary the results of the republic they set up speak for themselves (until it was overthrown) that despite the problems and flaws America did achieve a measure of freedom un-precedented in known history. As has been said thier is room for improvement of course.

Again, how can one say “America has achieved a measure of freedom unprecedented in known history” yet provide NOTHING stating what freedoms are and how these freedoms are quantified? Again, if we’re talking about the past, and comparing and contrasting America to other countries, what exactly are we looking at? Are we going to consider how women couldn’t vote? Are we going to consider how Africans were used as slaves? Or, are we going to cherry pick and use what suits us for the moment, which is something you obviously want to do…

Does this discount slavery and the plight of the native Americans? Of course not the principles of freedom hold true even if they have been denied to certain people in the past by flawed human beings.

Hypocrisy. This isn’t a matter of “flawed human beings” but a matter of men, men you and others hold in high regards, being true hypocrites. The fact is, one cannot reasonably proclaim freedom, and work for the freedom of all men, if they are making slaves of others. It is hypocrisy 101, and to deny this is folly. The founding fathers have taught their offspring well, to lie, kill and steal in the name of liberation, freedom and justice (the current Iraq war ring a bell?)

The ideal is to extend them to all peoples and nations not disparage them and discard them because the men who first tried to implement them to the measure they were able were flawed human beings as we all are.

We’re all flawed yet you and others think we will magically change and won’t repeat the same flaw. HISTORY, not my OPINION, shows that such flaws are set to repeat over and over again.

Despite thier imperfect implementation America was a huge step forward from the thousands of years of vassal lord feudalism before it. Do we have a ways to go? Of course but let us not throw the baby out with the bath water! Hopefully the troubled times we see now are a prelude to new even greater leap forward then our founders made! So please lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!

Refer to all previous comments.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by EMPIRE

They did NOTHING for you. That is the point you fail to grasp.

Good Sir/Madam, you are absolutely correct in this assertion. Everything they did, they did for themselves.

"We hold these TRUTHS to be Self-Evident"

You see, the problem with ideas, good or bad, is once you release them to the general public; they no longer belong to you alone. The founding fathers thought not of us, BECAUSE all men are created equal. It is up to each and every one of us to secure our creator(insert god figure of your choice-------here------) given freedom just as they did.

I pose that each of us is responsible for his and her own actions, much as we are for our own fate. Should any among us let someone else make choices for them, then they are welcome to their self-imposed slavery.

So you see, they did not fail us; it was never their place to stand for Us......We have collectively failed ourselves.

*edit* as to the hypocrisy of the founding fathers, as was stated earlier, all men are created equal, and also equally flawed. To quote one of the few television shows i actually enjoyed, Firefly: "I reckon every man who ever had a statue built of him was a sommbi*ch on one count or another"

[edit on 21-3-2010 by blood0fheroes]

Man, EMPIRE has held his own for so long by himself. For that, I totally commend him. Keep up the good work.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by jerico65

 

Hmmmm....so, Empire, you whine about the FF killing off the natives in America.

I’m not whining. I’m citing the fact that this country was built on bloodshed. You may consider it whining but people died, remember that.

I guess you must have missed that little bit about the Spanish doing a fair bit of killing in what would become the southern US.

We aren’t talking about them. This is not a case of “they did it why not mention them”, because ultimately, “the Spanish” are NOT the major beneficiaries of natives being wiped out.

As I said in another post on this thread, I think they were doing a fine job of genocide prior to the British and French arriving.

See above.


[edit on 21-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

LOL! The Spanish are not the major beneficiaries of the natives being wiped out. Why is it that Spanish is almost as common as English in the Americas? Take a good look at world history, and you will see stories of all nations having their roots with blood, but because white colonials and white Americans wiped out the natives and that early America had slaves just makes it worse than everyone else in the modern and classical world. So the founding fathers had slaves, they pushed out the natives from their lands, so what! They weren't perfect. Also remember, there were many hostile tribes that attacked other tribes and whites. It isn't because the whites and the spanish did it, it's because those tribes were aggressive to begin with. So our early history drove out the natives, the Spanish did it, and you know what, it is what it is. All is fair in war, expansion was a big theme in those days, it was the end of the era where it was common for any nation to conquer it's neighbors for more land and resources.

I'm not saying I enjoy it, but that's is what has happened. Also remember, that early America was just colonies, the ideals and the dream that was what the United States is supposed to be about was still in it's drafting stage. The founders wanted to create a nation that was different, they wanted the new world to resemble the way Rome did it but with improvements. The piece of paper you disregard is indeed a piece of paper, but the meaning of the words written on it are more powerful. The piece of paper that you only see as a piece of paper is a physical representation of the idea of freedom. George Washington had slaves, and didn't want to give them up, so what? He wasn't perfect, slavery was common as having a dog as a pet in those days. Slavery existed thousands upon thousands of years before the America, and it wasn't just blacks that were sold out by their own people for profit.

Thomas Jefferson had slaves, he gutted up the bible and made what is known as the Jefferson Bible, he penned the Declaration of Independence, he was the third president of the U.S, he also wasn't perfect. Maybe this is why Mr. Jefferson isn't important in Texas education, but that's another topic. But here's a fun fact about Thomas Jefferson, did you know that he was actually trying to get slavery abolished? Well if he wanted it abolished, why didn't he free his slaves? Not because he is full of it, because he couldn't. He was poor, in debt, and remained this way for the rest of his life and he couldn't free his slaves until his debts were gone. It's also worth nothing that he had his slaves given a high education. Yes slavery was bad for some in this country, many didn't have it too bad in fact were just part of the family. American slaves were treated good compared to how other empires, kingdoms, etc treated their slaves.

Your OP has nothing of historical accuracy, it's just all your own attitude toward what you think this country is all about and you wanted attention. You certainly got that, but when you make claims, you need to provide some evidence to it. I don't provide sources because all of this is well known if you live in the U.S. You're going to have a try just a bit harder if you want to win any argument or debate around here, but you have been schooled by every poster that responded to you so maybe that should ignite a spark in your mind that maybe you ought to read a few more books before trying to post what you think is historically right. Or are you just trying to get some points?