What is going on in Britain???

action is needed, I think that is one thing we all share.

Originally posted by onecon
reply to post by dashar

 

dashar children teenagers are being influenced by tv and media like never before i agree.

So the thinking responsible adult should be able to solve this one, you think?

reply to post by Muckster


Hi!

I watch from afar as I left the 'police state' of the UK (the home of democracy?) some time ago.

You are right.

And the cause? The spineless English who, rather than voice an opinion. allow the nanny state to implement more and more rules (the latest by the way is a £1,000 fine for adding salt to meals by chefs in restaurants.....????)

Instead of talking about the weather - it might be useful for the English to to get off their arses and make note of their neigbours across the channel.

Don't always support our French neighbours but at least they have guts and stand up and demonstrate/blockade/strike.

And living where I live - if they don't like a law (banning smoking in all pubic places) they change it as people voice their opinion. We now have smoking sections in restaurants and non smoking section.... seems logical to me.

Sorry, but you English deserve everything you get.

Peace!

reply to post by Muckster


There are many reasons for this behavior, i think one of the big reasons is that parents no longer see their kids as kids, they want to go out and be their friends instead. This way of treating their children means the parent has no authority and the child just won't listen.

The other problem is punishment. If these troublesome little kids were locked up for nice long periods (while being forced to take part in education) then maybe we would see a change. Still i think lots of these kids are suffering from APD (Antisocial Personality Disorder) and so no matter what we do they are not easily fixed. These kids have grown up and had their own kids and the cycle gets slowly worse.

Finally the undermining of peoples ability to defend themselves and their property means the burglars and yobs are just not scared. If someone breaks into my house and i beat them up then i will be going to prison and the burglar will get a slap on the wrist and very possibly i'll be conspensating him. A pathetic system.

The same goes for these scumbags throwing paint and bricks at peoples houses. I would phone the police but if after a month nothing was done then i'd wait for them to do it again, walk out the house with a bat and i'd beat as many of them as i could into a pulp. If that sounds thuggish then fine, but it's the only way these kids will learn.

The worst part of this though is that obviously when these kids crawled home, crying (because these kids are pathetically weak and when they're the victim they cry like girls) their parents, who often hate the police will immediately call them. This has always astounded me, they call the police so many names but when something bad happens to them they get the coppers involved.

I would be lead off in handcuffs, with the parents jeering behind me and that just shows the system is completely broken. But it's ok, as time goes by the people will get increasingly tired of it all and we'll see vigilantism go up. We've already seen isolated pockets of people resisting burglars and tackling thieves in shops.

Originally posted by Essan
Bring back the stocks for social crimes (like vandalism etc) and make prison somewhere that people would rather not go to instead of a rather cushy place to stay for a few years while you tone up your muscles and pass a degree in how to sue the council.

America has prisons which are awful and do very little to educate criminals and yet they have a massive problem with reoffending. Punishment is not enough (although i agree with it), you also need to rehabilitate.

I like the stocks as well lol. I'm not for the death penalty but embarrassment is a damn fine way of stopping this kind of thing and the criminals face gets known.

reply to post by ColeYounger


Bullying is never acceptable in adults but some children who bully are acting out behaviour that they have experienced themselves.

I am not prioritising the rights of the bully but with children, using corporal punishment to chastise may perpetuate the problem as the bully-child will learn nothing but brute force, is right.

As the OP points out, there are too many failures within Children and Families Services and part of the reason for this is because social workers and the police are reluctant to remove children from failing families because there are just not enough family placement resources, ie foster parents.

Social services in England and Wales have been too target driven and this has contributed to the high levels of failure within the system. Failures such as enforced adoption of the children of loving and caring parents as well as non-intervention in abusive families.

Current education policy is also target driven and this too contributes to the breakdown of respect for and by children, Children are over tested and over burdened with the expectation to perform rather being taught how to learn. Teachers who want to teach have to instruct and are disempowered, as are we all, by the monthly pay cheque that service their debt and expenses.

Local authority housing departments sometimes have dedicated ASB teams but often rely on local housing associations to take enforcement action. Court action is a last resort because it serves the best interests of neither the community or the policy makers, to create homelessness. The courts rarely grant an outright eviction order and even if they do, the miscreant is referred back to the council housing department to exercise whatever remains of their housing rights.(Family entervention is the current policy but it is too new to be assessed for effectiveness.)

Parents are disempowered by the system in every respect to their child's rights and development. As violence breeds violence, so respect breeds respect and a child has the right to a respectful upbringing. Sometimes, a child does need the shocking wake up call that is the clout. Only a loving a caring parent is equipped to know exactly when it is necessary to administer a quick cosh for that particular child.

But sadly the state disagrees and feels it appropriate to introduce energetic and enquiring children to the psychoactive, behaviour modifying chemical cosh.

With the development of the child being state regulated, assessed and controlled through parental disempowerment, parental concerns for their child's safety driven by state propaganda and constant surveilance that promotes fear of crime, children are increasingly isolated at home and rarely spend time without adult supervision. It is hardly suprising that when these people who are molly-coddled but not respected by the state are let of the leash, or break the boundaries themselves, that they display disrespectful behaviour.

Personally, I think that taking thugs out to the 'village green', putting them in stocks, taking their pants down and giving them the slipper will teach them some respect but then violence breeds violence and so there would have to be fully resourced support services to reduce recividism and therefore, failure rates.

Sorry, ColeYounger. I've ranted beyond my response to your post!





[edit on 13/3/2010 by teapot]

reply to post by mlmijyd


Not a chance .
This is one monster that broke free and wont be stopped until its played out, which i doubt is a good thing.
But i could be wrong but then again look at the inner citys they are pouring out to suburbs i know its a natural growth thing but they are diffrent than regular villagers or small towns people.
20 years back heroin was something they did in newyork city ,Or maybe i was sheltered?.
I only see more control comeing down the road from authorities and private sector , but i dont think this will deter crime or groups of young people doing bad stuff to gain rank .We need good old values back.
People call the church ad RE lessons ,school cainings,the ruler,the trainer, the birch but it taught me to respect my elders. also most anyone older than i was ,hell i did even respect the police back then got done one tim a copper then hit me took me home then my dad hit me sent me to bed ,I diddent do it again put it that way.
. bak then your age and expeirience counted if a coper told my dad something he knew it was true something has changed and its bigger than we think its across most ages .
kids dont care or envy say a fireman ,nurse ,they think they are soft or somthing .
what you are what you do dont carry any wieght,Oh i tell a lie the drug dealers have great respect with the gangs/kids round here and also the hardmen\familys .age and years dont count if your old watch out things will get worse.

Originally posted by The Wave
reply to post by Muckster

 

Hi!

I watch from afar as I left the 'police state' of the UK (the home of democracy?) some time ago.

You are right.

And the cause? The spineless English who, rather than voice an opinion. allow the nanny state to implement more and more rules (the latest by the way is a £1,000 fine for adding salt to meals by chefs in restaurants.....????)

Instead of talking about the weather - it might be useful for the English to to get off their arses and make note of their neigbours across the channel.

Don't always support our French neighbours but at least they have guts and stand up and demonstrate/blockade/strike.

And living where I live - if they don't like a law (banning smoking in all pubic places) they change it as people voice their opinion. We now have smoking sections in restaurants and non smoking section.... seems logical to me.

Sorry, but you English deserve everything you get.

Peace!

MY other half reckons its the water ,she says men are turning into women and women men.
the french are top at protesting when something rubs them the wrong way.

reply to post by The Wave


Why do you keep saying "the english" when we're talking about the UK. As you claim to have been here then i would think you would know the difference. Putting that rather glaring mistake aside, remember that many people are voicing their opininos, writing to their MP's and doing everything they can. We just happen to be in the minority and even if we were the majority i somehow think the government wouldn't listen.

Originally posted by yodagod
reply to post by Muckster

 

An endless stream of money going around and around with an endless line of fingers in the pie.

White-collar job creation is another compliance tool. I agree with much of your post.

However,

If Darwinism is true and we humans are a result of the process of natural selection, the perhaps we should rid ourselves of guilt and "Deselect" repeat criminals in favour of socially responsible people ? Surely the "natural" thing to do ?

Eugenics are not socially responsible! And if deselection is based on a choice between repeat criminals in a society that seeks to criminalise everyone, who are the socially responsible people?

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by Muckster

 

There are many reasons for this behavior, i think one of the big reasons is that parents no longer see their kids as kids, they want to go out and be their friends instead. This way of treating their children means the parent has no authority and the child just won't listen.

The other problem is punishment. If these troublesome little kids were locked up for nice long periods (while being forced to take part in education) then maybe we would see a change. Still i think lots of these kids are suffering from APD (Antisocial Personality Disorder) and so no matter what we do they are not easily fixed. These kids have grown up and had their own kids and the cycle gets slowly worse.

Finally the undermining of peoples ability to defend themselves and their property means the burglars and yobs are just not scared. If someone breaks into my house and i beat them up then i will be going to prison and the burglar will get a slap on the wrist and very possibly i'll be conspensating him. A pathetic system.

The same goes for these scumbags throwing paint and bricks at peoples houses. I would phone the police but if after a month nothing was done then i'd wait for them to do it again, walk out the house with a bat and i'd beat as many of them as i could into a pulp. If that sounds thuggish then fine, but it's the only way these kids will learn.

The worst part of this though is that obviously when these kids crawled home, crying (because these kids are pathetically weak and when they're the victim they cry like girls) their parents, who often hate the police will immediately call them. This has always astounded me, they call the police so many names but when something bad happens to them they get the coppers involved.

I would be lead off in handcuffs, with the parents jeering behind me and that just shows the system is completely broken. But it's ok, as time goes by the people will get increasingly tired of it all and we'll see vigilantism go up. We've already seen isolated pockets of people resisting burglars and tackling thieves in shops.

True True True... everything you have said here is spot on

I know i might get in trouble by the quote police for quoting your long post... but i felt it needed repeating

Originally posted by Muckster

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by Muckster

 

There are many reasons for this behavior, i think one of the big reasons is that parents no longer see their kids as kids, they want to go out and be their friends instead. This way of treating their children means the parent has no authority and the child just won't listen.

The other problem is punishment. If these troublesome little kids were locked up for nice long periods (while being forced to take part in education) then maybe we would see a change. Still i think lots of these kids are suffering from APD (Antisocial Personality Disorder) and so no matter what we do they are not easily fixed. These kids have grown up and had their own kids and the cycle gets slowly worse.

Finally the undermining of peoples ability to defend themselves and their property means the burglars and yobs are just not scared. If someone breaks into my house and i beat them up then i will be going to prison and the burglar will get a slap on the wrist and very possibly i'll be conspensating him. A pathetic system.

The same goes for these scumbags throwing paint and bricks at peoples houses. I would phone the police but if after a month nothing was done then i'd wait for them to do it again, walk out the house with a bat and i'd beat as many of them as i could into a pulp. If that sounds thuggish then fine, but it's the only way these kids will learn.

The worst part of this though is that obviously when these kids crawled home, crying (because these kids are pathetically weak and when they're the victim they cry like girls) their parents, who often hate the police will immediately call them. This has always astounded me, they call the police so many names but when something bad happens to them they get the coppers involved.

I would be lead off in handcuffs, with the parents jeering behind me and that just shows the system is completely broken. But it's ok, as time goes by the people will get increasingly tired of it all and we'll see vigilantism go up. We've already seen isolated pockets of people resisting burglars and tackling thieves in shops.

True True True... everything you have said here is spot on

I know i might get in trouble by the quote police for quoting your long post... but i felt it needed repeating

In todays society not many people know the difference between RIGHT and WRONG. Its more about what you can get away with.

This is why Schaeffer Cox got the community of Fairbanks to pull together and sort these issues out on there own terms using COMMON LAW. not the masonic BS that goes on in our courts today. The simple fact is that it is us muppets who LET these people rule our country and make up these silly laws.

The time is coming to where we need to stop talking about whats wrong and do something about it, without going out and wrapping a baseball bat round a chav's neck. Dont you think this would give them good enough reason to lock you up and throw away the key. Dont get me wrong Im not into beeming the MP with love.But I'm sure there is a better way........................

Whose responsible? Two Words - New Labour. Paranoid, suspicion, obsessive surveillance - and a land of liberty destroyed by stealth. Welcome to New Labour's Great Britain.

After 13 years of the New Labour experiment 70% of voters believe that British society is now broken and heading in the wrong direction, Gordon Brown will naturally deny this, call the voters flat earthers and recite tractor production stats in his governments defence.

The left will blame Maggie Thatcher as usual, conveniently forgetting in their diatribe that Britain has been ruled by Labour for 13 years, but then it is always someone else’s fault.

Nearly three fifths of voters say that they hardly recognise the country they are living in, while 42 per cent say they would emigrate if they could.

Women, working-class people and Tory voters were more likely to say that they hardly recognise their own country.

Overall, 64 per cent think that Britain is going in the wrong direction and just 31 per cent believe it is on the right track.

Voters’ main fire is directed at political institutions: 73 per cent say politics is broken in Britain and 77 per cent say there are far fewer people in public life that they admire than there used to be.

toryardvaark.wordpress.com...

How to punish New Labour
hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk...

Might as well vote New Labour and laugh at them trying to clean up their own s### Makes no difference who you vote for as the damage has been done and this country will be forever broken.

Originally posted by gareth01422

The time is coming to where we need to stop talking about whats wrong and do something about it, without going out and wrapping a baseball bat round a chav's neck. Dont you think this would give them good enough reason to lock you up and throw away the key. Dont get me wrong Im not into beeming the MP with love.But I'm sure there is a better way........................

As i said in the post, i would call the police first but after a month, if they are throwing bricks through the windows, threatening people, spray painting everything and the police are doing nothing then direct action has it's place. I have never been in this situation because happily i live in a low crime area, but if someone is attacking my home then they're going to get very badly hurt. Also i mentioned burglars, what better way would you suggest to deal with someone in your home? A burglary is often over in 3 minutes, the police won't get there in time.

And what good reason would they have to arrest me? I know they would but if they have failed in their job and not sorted the problem then i have basically been left with no choice other than to suffer or act. If the council has been informed and nothing has happened then what else can we do?

A better way only works when the peoples voice is heard.

Originally posted by kindred
Whose responsible? Two Words - New Labour. Paranoid, suspicion, obsessive surveillance - and a land of liberty destroyed by stealth. Welcome to New Labour's Great Britain.

I am not a fan of Labour but i think it's an ansolute cop out to blame it all on them. The economy yes, they could have regulated the banks better, they could have built up a bigger emergency fund, they could have not sold the gold when it was at a terrible low. But to blame them for a runaway youth is ridiculous.

Here's another example of our fine British police system at its best:

Curry house owner foils burglary... and then HE'S thrown in cell when yobs complain

Mr Miah's ordeal began a fortnight ago when he heard the teenagers trying to smash their way into the beer cellar.
They fled, but Mr Miah pursued them and managed to grab them and bring them back to the restaurant, where he sat them down by the bar.
He told his diners not to worry and instructed staff to call the police.
But as he did so a large group of the teenagers' friends assembled outside and started to kick the door in.
Fearing for the safety of his customers, Mr Miah locked the door to prevent the 'intimidating' youths getting in, he said.
He also went outside to stop them from breaking his windows and pushed several of them away.
But when the police arrived the youths accused Mr Miah of punching them and he was arrested.
As officers put him in the back of a patrol car, he said the laughing yobs hurled abuse and mocked him with shouts of 'You're nicked'. Mr Miah, who has no previous convictions, said: 'I could not believe it.
....
Sussex police said Mr Miah should have 'observed from a safe distance' before dialling 999.
The spokesman said: 'On no account should any attempt at aggression be made as this could easily escalate into violence.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

This happens all over Briton. People cannot deal with these delinquents because if it isn't their relatives defending them then it's the police and social services that defend them. There are too many agencies creating too many rules and regulations. Fewer rules equal a responsible society where authority is created and upheld by the people not government..

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


what other way? pay someone to do it for you...... only joking.

But in all honesty, I personally think it may come to defending your castle in the way you said. I go on another forum to do with my car (to see how to mend it) and a guy started a thread saying he called the police about someone robbing his car, the women on the phone said the police would be round when someone was free, 10 minutes paast so he called her back and said he had shot one of the robbers in the head. The police were there in five minutes. Then he got arrested for wasting police time.

Now thats good old british justice for you isnt it.

reply to post by Rapacity


I remember having a chat with a police officer and she told me that for example, if a 10 year old kid is keying a car and i walk over, stop him and grab his arm i can be arrested for assault. Gone are the days where someone would grab a badly behaving child, walk them round to the parents house and tell them what has happened. No instead i would be done for assault against the child.

The correct thing for me to do would be to call the police, i could shout at him to stop but lets face it, when a kid is keying a car they're not going to hang around and then what happens? I give a description, the car gets more damaged and it's very likely the kid won't be caught.

Our system is pathetic.

reply to post by gareth01422


The person on the forum is recounting a story of an american man who did that, so if they are passing it off as something they did then they're lying At least i am pretty sure the original story was an american one.

[edit on 13-3-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by Rapacity

 

I remember having a chat with a police officer and she told me that for example, if a 10 year old kid is keying a car and i walk over, stop him and grab his arm i can be arrested for assault. Gone are the days where someone would grab a badly behaving child, walk them round to the parents house and tell them what has happened. No instead i would be done for assault against the child.

The correct thing for me to do would be to call the police, i could shout at him to stop but lets face it, when a kid is keying a car they're not going to hang around and then what happens? I give a description, the car gets more damaged and it's very likely the kid won't be caught.

Our system is pathetic.

reply to post by gareth01422

 

The person on the forum is recounting a story of an american man who did that, so if they are passing it off as something they did then they're lying

At least i am pretty sure the original story was an american one.

[edit on 13-3-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]

It may well have been, There are people from allover the world on there.

another story was, a guy driving on his own along side of a wooded area, heres a big bang and pulls over to inspect the car thinking it had blown a tyre out. he notices a hole in the drivers door and the passenger door. it was a bullet hole. Phoned the police, it took them 2 days to go see him.

rapid responce hey?

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

As i said in the post, i would call the police first but after a month, if they are throwing bricks through the windows, threatening people, spray painting everything and the police are doing nothing then direct action has it's place. I have never been in this situation because happily i live in a low crime area, but if someone is attacking my home then they're going to get very badly hurt. Also i mentioned burglars, what better way would you suggest to deal with someone in your home? A burglary is often over in 3 minutes, the police won't get there in time.

Yeah true m8... about ten years ago i was on the tube (London underground) Can’t remember exactly what station it was (because i was working as a field engineer at the time and was always travelling) but i know it was somewhere in the west end... Anyway, i get off my train and make my way to the escalators... just before i step on i hear all this shouting and commotion coming from the platform. Being the nosey parker that i am i had to go and have a look

I found a large group of youths (about 10 of them) surrounding a man in his 30's who has one of the group in an arm lock. The kid in the arm lock is screaming like a little baby "you’re hurting me let go let go"

I approach the group and the man in his 30's looks at me and shouts "It’s not what it seems... they threatened my family with a knife"

He may have thought that i had assumed he was attacking them... but to be honest i had already worked out what was going on, so i just looked at him and nodded... I then shouted at the rest of this gang and basically warned them that i was well up for it if they wanted it and ordered them to get back. By this time some LU Staff arrived and helped us to hold the youth until the BT police arrived.

Turns out that the guy was off work and taking his wife and daughter around the sights of London for a day out... this gang were walking through the carriages shouting and swearing and when they see this guys daughter they started making rude suggestions... Being a stand up guy he faced up to them and told them to back off at which point one of the youths pulled a chisel out of a bag and threatened to stab the guy...

Little did the youth realise, this guy was ex army and immediately disarmed the youth and placed him in an arm lock... the train had just pulled into the station so the guy ran the youth off the train (still in an arm lock) giving his family time to escape on the train.

Anyway... the police asked if i would mind giving a statement, which i did, and asked if i would mind being a witness... of course i agreed.

I was asked to go back to the BT Police station 3 weeks later and was interviewed again... This time the tone of the police had changed. They were now asking me if i thought the ex army guy had used to much force... of if i had seen him hit the youths... i was amazed.

Of course i told the police that the guy was completely profession and used far more restraint than what i would have... the cop then told me that the father of the youth was pressing charges for assault against his son.

I was disgusted and i made my feeling known to the copper... he agreed but said that there was nothing they could do... they had to follow up the complaint.

Luckily the charges were dropped... but the fact that the CPS even considered charging this man, who in my eyes was a hero, was completely wrong!!

And if it wasn’t for the few witness's who stepped forward to tell the truth who knows what would have happened!!!

Scum breeding scum... if my kid had taking a beating off of a father protecting his daughter he would have got another one when he got home... and then marched around to the fathers house to apologise to him and his whole family!!!!!






[edit on 13-3-2010 by Muckster]