Guns and Good Stuff

You obviously don't care, which makes me wonder why you even bother posting here. I didn't create this thread to ventilate my opinion, I created it to find out what people from USA think about guns being allowed, it was hard to imagine that you guys are okay with it when it brings along so much problems. But it seems to me you just don't know better.

Of course it's hard for you to imagine. You don't live here, nor were you taught by our environment. I find it hard to imagine that you don't think I care, considering every explination there is has been presented to you on why we think the way we do, and did you learn from it? No. You bashed our way of thinking because you are deluded into thinking you are some kind of enlightened being showing us the one true way.

Actually, I think you are more idiotic to think that your way is gospel when most of us are happy you like it where you are.

My country is not the only country in Europe with these laws you know. It's a little bit easy to use the size of your country as an excuse. It's not about size at all. It's about wether the people want to live in a country where people carry guns or not.

Um, ok. This was my whole point. We DO want to live in a country that people HAVE guns. There are very few people who actually carry weapons outside of law enforcement. You make it sound like guns are everywhere and are normal sights. If someone seriously saw someone with a gun in hand in public, people would freak out. MOST people have them for target practice (because we enjoy it), hunting ( which people also enjoy), and protection (which more often than not are locked away in their house).

I care because I like the USA, I care because I know people in the USA, I care because I find it hard to understand you are too comfortable with guns to understand that there's a better way.

What makes you think it's a better way? Because you FEEL like it's better? That's what it sounds like to me, because you really haven't added much fact to the discussion, just your warm and fuzzies (which amount to a big bowl of jack squat as far as we are concerned).

There is a better way. Of course it would take a lot of effort, and it's not an easy way, but if the result is a better USA than what it is today, wouldn't it be worth it?

Most likely no. We have had a greatly successful country on the very tenents you think should be changed. While we may try to optimize our freedoms and effeciancy, the only thing that would come of banning guns is a revolution.

That is NOT worth it.

Well Jakko, banning guns in Aussie land sure did work. Now they are trying to ban knives, swords, daggers, and machette's. Gee, looks like people are not reaching for a gun, but a knife, sword, dagger, and machette.

Jakko, what is the better way? Taking guns from the people so criminals can do what they want? I bet you are planning a major crime spree using a gun the second they take away our right to bear arms. Wait, that will never happen for if they tried we would revolt.

As someone said, guns are not a common scene, it is not like we are walking down the street, someone bumps into us, we whip our guns out and shoot each other. You see, we in America have the right to bear arms, and we do bear them. But we are not idiots, mostly. We have gun chests to keep them in, or have gun locks, safeties on the guns, so forth. We don't just go out and shoot people cause we are in a bad mood. They might in Europe, but not here. In America guns aren't treated like biohazard waste like they are in most of Europe. Here we know about them, learn about them, how to handle, keep, and use them. Reason people die in gun accidents is cause they don't know what they are doing. Like a guy who cleans his gun without unloading it, stupidity is to blame, not the gun.

And again, guns are not dangerous! PEOPLE ARE! Guns are no more dangerous than a pillow. Of course, pillows are far more dangerous than a gun. No registration, no noise, no liscense needed to buy one, no identifying marks or serial numbers, and unlike a gun, all you need is the pillow. As said, a gun without a bullet is not a threat unless the person pistol whips you or clubs you. Why do you think guns are bad but pillows or cars are good? Hell, I could take a pencil and stab you to death, should we ban pencils? You say ban guns cause they kill people. Well, I have never seen a gun kill somebody, usually the person holding the gun kills the person. And I could use a wrench, car, pillow, pencil, whatever to kill people, so should all those be banned cause if used wrong they could kill someone.

Kind of hypocritical of you to say ban guns cause they kill people, but keep everything else that kills people.

All I have to add at this point is this.

Jakko, ask the six million dead jews from europe how safe they felt after thier guns were outlawed.

*edit*
Here is smart gun control.

The Justice Department is dispatching teams of federal agents to 15 cities struggling with violent crime problems despite a dropping U.S. crime rate, Attorney General John Ashcroft said Thursday.

Please note this part:

The initiative also is aimed at reducing the traditional summer increase in murder and violent crime, he said. Firearms offenses are the main focus because they are often more readily proven in court than other crimes.

And, especially, this:

Investigators will focus on prosecuting people for firearms violations, which often accompany gang activity, illegal drug organizations and organized crime groups.

www.cnn.com...

I'm all for this initiative. If we continue on this path we can soon have the lowest violent crime rate in the world much to the chagrin of the anti-gun nuts .

[edit on 24-6-2004 by Fry2]

Okay well, I guess it pretty much ends here.
I still think making guns illegal is the best thing to do for any country, I allready explained why the proces of doing this does not lead to immediate results as shown in Australia and England.

Krazy Jethro will probably stay in his "mind your own f*cking business" mode, no matter what I say. James is back with his "guns are as dangerous as pillows" wisdom, and fry is once again making a fool out of himself, thinking that the WWII genocide has something to do with this subject.

I better call it a day I think.
Thanks all for participating in this discussion, it was at least informative for me.

Jakko,


How can you say guns are dangerous when the people who register them don't use them unless they HAVE TO??


How do you explain the black market and knuckleheads buying them for criminal reasons only?

Which is the more evil?

If you outlaw guns for the people who don't use them only if they have to, the black market is still going to be around and so will crime, so you figure it out.

Jakko, I'm sorry if you've answered this before, but I am wondering.

If we outlaw guns in America it will make it so the only people with guns are criminals. How is that a good thing? How is putting guns only in the hands of criminals who intend to do harm to others a good thing? That is something I really want to know.

If you say "well law enforcement has guns to stop them," I won't accept that as a good answer. Because law enforcement, in reality, isn't good at stopping crimes. They get to a crime after it happens, and follow up on it. They, for the most part, don't prevent robberies, shootings, etc.

So please, let me know what you think about only criminals having guns and good people having no way to protect themselves?

Um Jakko,

We have given you plenty of information and facts concerning the benefits of gun use.

I would not want to have a society like you have in Europe here in America. Overcroweded people who rely on thier govornments for survival. no thanks.

You have ignored the basic facts: America is a more violent society because thats our culture, of foolish one. You obviously have little understanding of cultural differences.

Americans commit more violent acts because we have a more violent society. Banning guns will not stop this.

You seem to forget the very basic FACT that almost twice as many people are stabbed to death than shot. the majority of gun deaths are accidents and suicides. Guns are not very good murder weapons. They make too much noise.

my home state of California has very strict gun laws. it also has amongst the highest crime rate in the nation.

The state i current;ly live in has conceal carry laws permitting guns. We have a pretty low crime rate here. i can actually walk the streets here at night.

What aprt of this cant you get through your head? You obviously know nothing, getting your seriously skewed facts and figures from some BS hippy club compiling thier own pathetic assortment of stats thats have no basis in reality.

I called you Jakomo. Because its widely believed your his alter ego.

Lets look at Europe. Marijuana is legal there, and you have a much higher unemployment rate than we do. So why dont you ban drugs, since its obviously making people in europe too lazy too go out and work. That has to be why you have a high unemployment rate, eh? it cant possibly be anything else.

Americas high crime rate is because we have a semi criminal culture, and banning guns aint gonna make a difference at all. because criminals dont care if its ill;egal or not.

Do you seriously think a guy who wants to shoot people ois gonna care that its illegal to own a gun? hell no! hes gonna use it for something illegal anyway! hell jhust buy his guns on the black market! Duh!!!!!!!!!

So Jakko, a decade isn't long enough to have a gun ban be effective? Then how long? 2 decades? 3? 10? And why do you think banning guns is the right decision? You just say guns kill people so they bad so they should be banned. But pillows kill people, why aren't you asking to ban pillows? Cause you aren't afraid of pillows? Well, just cause you have an irrational fear of guns doesn't mean no one but criminals should have them. I have an irrational fear of spiders, should we ban spiders? Some spiders kill people, we should ban spiders. And you ridicule me for talking about how dangerous pillows are? You keep saying guns are dangerous even though they aren't, only the person using it can be dangerous.

Give a gun to a pacifist, no problem. Give a gun to an insane psycho murderer, he will kill people. Of course, most psycho killers don't use guns, they use knives, bats, posions.

And again Jakko, it is against Pit rules to call people names. Tsk tsk tsk. So you give up? Since 50 people have proven you wrong you give up? If you truely believed that guns are bad and guns kill people using mind control to force people to commit crimes with guns, you wouldn't roll over and play dead.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by TrueLies
No other country is like America, the people are great here and know what happens when guns are outlawed.

It's gives the people a sense of security and pride.

Only little kids and anarchistic idiots are proud about having a gun.
I think, above all, this has to do with pride. With the illusion that the people in america are somehow different (better) than people in the rest of the world.
I hope in the end there'll be something left to be proud of.

Jakko, I see now why you are drawing the ire of some. Let me help you a bit.

I own weapons. I don't own any "guns", as I have no place to put an artillery piece, but I do own weapons. To date, none of these weapons have harmed anyone, innocent or not so innocent. If the time comes when I must defend my family from an intruder, that perfect 0% rate will change, but I'd rather that happen than to be caught with a steak knife. Fortunately, I live in a state where gun ownership is the norm, not the exception, and because of this, we enjoy a lower crime rate than states that have strict gun laws. When you don't know which house is going to be the one with the armed and trained citizen, it can make the thief or rapist think twice.

Gun ownership does not increase crime, nor does it make a nation more violent. A tool has nothing to do with that. Owning a lighter does not make one an arsonist, get the illustration? A moral decay causes citizens to have less respect for fellow citizens. Removing weapons does not fix that problem. As a matter of fact, I have read stats the indicate countries that have imposed gun laws have found a rise in crime. If that be the case, it seems that gun ownership makes a nation more moral, huh?

This nation's Founding Fathers ensured the right to keep and bear arms was there for the people in case they need to take their government back from tyranny and arbitrary rule. In the time that this nation has existed, we have seen others, especially in the European area, fall to such a state, and the first thing the ruler does is take away the weapons from the citizens, Stalin, Hitler, great examples. We have no threatening neighbors that might invade the U.S. mainland and impose tyranny, but we do have a government that for years has been controlled by people and groups that have the desire to impose tyranny and arbitrary rule on us. One of the things they have been pushing is gun control, a concept built on lies that accomplishes nothing but to disarm the citizenry. We do not need that.

Jakko, you say you are concerned about us having weapons because you like the U.S. Don't be concerned over agenda propaganda and pro- gun control information you hear on your news media as well as ours, we are in no danger of being slaughtered by rampaging firearms. If you are truly concerned for us, remember what a Criminal Justice professor I had years ago told us students, "Whenever your government wants to take away your right to keep and bear arms, the first thing you'd better ask yourself is why do they want to do that. You'd better ask quickly, because their intentions are not for your benefit!"

I think Skadi pretty much summed it up.
I don't use any of my guns for killing.
If, however, some crazy SOB and his friends get it in thier minds that they are going to rape my wife and kill my kid.... I'll be more than happy to paint my wall with thier grey matter.
We're not all willing to rely on the police. They investigate crimes, they don't prevent them.

As far as my WWII reference....

It was EXTREMELY valid! We have the second amendment to prevent just such a thing from ever happening here. If the U.S. government ever got out of control who is going to stop it? The EU?
Nope, I think we would be on our own to get things back to where they should be.
(patiently awaiting the socialist cries for immediate revolution)

edit....TC beat me to most of it

[edit on 24-6-2004 by Fry2]

Originally posted by Faisca
Jakko, I'm sorry if you've answered this before, but I am wondering.

If we outlaw guns in America it will make it so the only people with guns are criminals. How is that a good thing? How is putting guns only in the hands of criminals who intend to do harm to others a good thing? That is something I really want to know.

Okay, first of all, where do criminals get their guns?
Most of the illegal guns today, were once legal guns. It's obvious that when guns are (in a restricted way) legal, it's going to be fairly easy to get ahold of a (stolen) gun somewhere.
The reason that a lot of criminals even have a gun (this is not the case over here) is guns being legal in the first place.
By making people turn in their legal guns only, nothing is achieved. Before this happens, the entire gun-produktion sector has to be looked at, and a system has to be made to track or find illegal guns.
Now this is nearly impossible, which is why I said it might be too late for the USA to ever make guns illegal.
The time between the moment at which guns become illegal, and the moment illegal guns start to get tracked/destroyed is simply too long.
Besides this, gun produktion and weapon produktion in general is quite a market in USA, another reason to continue making and selling guns.

It was "too late" to make guns illegal here in 1776. Actually before that but I hope you get my meaning.
We are a nation built upon self determination. That includes the right to protect yourself and your own.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
And again Jakko, it is against Pit rules to call people names. Tsk tsk tsk. So you give up? Since 50 people have proven you wrong you give up? If you truely believed that guns are bad and guns kill people using mind control to force people to commit crimes with guns, you wouldn't roll over and play dead.

I gave up talking to you quite a while ago.
The mass spamming was bad enough, repeating your pillow-crap just truly makes me conclude talking to you is a waste of my time.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I would not want to have a society like you have in Europe here in America. Overcroweded people who rely on thier govornments for survival. no thanks.

I don't think you know anything about Europe...

You have ignored the basic facts: America is a more violent society because thats our culture, of foolish one. You obviously have little understanding of cultural differences.

America being a more violent society is a fact allright, but wether that has anything to do with my understanding of cultural differences remains the question.

What aprt of this cant you get through your head? You obviously know nothing, getting your seriously skewed facts and figures from some BS hippy club compiling thier own pathetic assortment of stats thats have no basis in reality.

Heh, I didn't mean to make you upset.

I called you Jakomo. Because its widely believed your his alter ego.

Widely? Or just in your head?
I'm not Jakomo.

Lets look at Europe. Marijuana is legal there, and you have a much higher unemployment rate than we do. So why dont you ban drugs, since its obviously making people in europe too lazy too go out and work. That has to be why you have a high unemployment rate, eh? it cant possibly be anything else.

If you want a serious reply to your flawed examples, at least make sure they make the slightest sense.

[edit on 24-6-2004 by Jakko]

By the way Jakko,

You do realize that a very large portion of the illegal guns here come from China and former Eastern Bloc countries....right?
Yes, there are a good number of stolen guns out there but that is already illegal. Why not enforce the laws we have for criminals with guns? Why do you think we all need to give them up?

Well fry, of course that's the best option, but also quite impossible.
Banning guns for everyone will at least make sure you know what someone is up to when they carry a gun.