Guns and Good Stuff

Originally posted by Faisca
reply to some of the good points we bring up

What, your point about humans hands and feet being weapons as well???
Well where is the line then?
Should everyone be allowed to build nuclear bombs because your ahnds and feet make great weapons as well?
The line as it is now, weapons being allowed, is wrong in my opinion.
Knives serve a lot of purposes besides hurting people, and are somewhat less deadly than guns.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by Faisca
reply to some of the good points we bring up

What, your point about humans hands and feet being weapons as well???
Well where is the line then?
Should everyone be allowed to build nuclear bombs because your ahnds and feet make great weapons as well?
The line as it is now, weapons being allowed, is wrong in my opinion.
Knives serve a lot of purposes besides hurting people, and are somewhat less deadly than guns.

I'm not quite sure if you're grasping the point I'm trying to make. Of course a normal person shouldn't own a nuclear bomb (we don't even allow countries to own nukes). But a nuke is a far cry from a rifle or pistol used for self defense or hunting. You're not going to use a nuke for any kind of recreational activity, but that is what guns are for (when used PROPERLY).

Lives aren't really any less deadly than guns. If you were standing infront of me I could slit your throat or shoot you in the chest. They'll both get the job done. But, yes, guns might be easier to kill people with. I could shoot you from long range with a gun. I could also kill you long range with a bow and arrow, or perhaps a blow gun. Hell if I wanted to I could probably kill you with a bbgun or slingshot. Do you advocate all of these being outlawed?

I think we're also forgetting an important point. If guns were to be used for self defense, that doesnt automatically mean that they'll be used to kill. Shooting a person does not equal killing them.

I know I'm not going to be able to change your opinion, but I hope you can atleast see where I and other people are coming from.

Ah yeah, but that was never the problem.
I allready know about the excuse of self-defense.
Fact is that people in all european countries somehow don't have problems with defending themselves without the use of guns.
Guns make it much much easyer to not only kill and hurt people, but also to do this by accident.
Comparing guns to knifes is a joke. The differences are so huge I am not even going to start listing them.

If you make it too easy for people to kill other people, mistakes and accidents will easily turn into tragedies.

To bring something up that has been said before... Should we outlaw knives, saws, forks, rope, pillows, or shovels? Should we outlaw the practice of martial arts. Anyone's hands and feet are deadly weapons; any object could be used for killing someone. I have the ability to use my martial arts training to kill a person, should I be outlawed? It sounds funny, but it's serious. My hands could be just as deadly as a bullet from a gun, but you don't see me flying off the handle and breaking people's necks.

You can't use yourself as an example, thats failed logic. Of course your not "flying off the handle" killing people, your a law abiding citizen.

You have more of a chance of surviving a knife than a gun, you can take multiple stab wounds and still live, you can't take multiple gun shot wounds. Guns are an unfair fight in my opinion, your martial arts wont help you much when someone is holding a gun to you and out of your reach. A knife is different, you have a chance at that.

Its not the fact that guns can kill people, its the fact that it happens all too often. Some eleven thousand people die every year from gun shots, either accidental or other, in the U.S. Countries that outlaw guns dont have nearly that many. Gee I wonder why. You can't say gun control doesn't work, because it does. Americans have become so paranoid to the point they think they have to have their gun to protect themselves.

If someone is going to rob your house in your sleep, let them go, let your insurance handle it, no need to make yourself a murderer. Robbers are looking for a quick score, not trouble.

Who ever heard of killing by fork?

Interesting how the violent crime rates in the european countries you refer to have skyrocketed since gun ownership was banned. Australia, not european but still a gun ban country, is now talking about banning swords (sharp sticks are probably next)!

The point is to address the problem not the tools. Yes, guns make it easier to kill someone / thing. That's what they were designed for. All tools are made to make a task easier, think about it.....

If you want to talk about "accidents becoming tragedies" I suggest you have a look at those 3000 pound hunks of iron that nearly anyone can buy and toss around at speeds exceeding 100 MPH. Yeah, cars. They cause a hell of a lot more tragedy than gun accidents do. It's also very easy to intentionally kill someone with one. Try some martial arts against a Chevy doing 80, I'll bring the spatula.

Originally posted by Fry2
Interesting how the violent crime rates in the european countries you refer to have skyrocketed since gun ownership was banned.

Do you have any links to support your very unlikely statement?
I can't speak for other countries, but I do know the violent crime rates in my small country are very low.

Oh and don't compare cars to guns.
Everyone uses cars every day, so yeah a lot more accidents happen with cars than with guns. Try to look at things in perspective.
Besides this, cars are not made especially for "targetting things" where guns are.

Here's one to begin with. I'll need to reference some books to get more.

England -- Licenses have been required for rifles and handguns since 1920, and for shotguns since 1967. A decade ago semi-automatic and pump-action center-fire rifles, and all handguns except single- shot .22s, were prohibited. The .22s were banned in 1997. Shotguns must be registered and semi-automatic shotguns that can hold more than two shells must be licensed. Despite a near ban on private ownership of firearms, "English crime rates as measured in both victim surveys and police statistics have all risen since 1981. . . . In 1995 the English robbery rate was 1.4 times higher than America`s. . . . the English assault rate was more than double America`s." All told, "Whether measured by surveys of crime victims or by police statistics, serious crime rates are not generally higher in the United States than England." (Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and in Wales, 1981-1996," 10/98.) An English doctor is suspected of murdering more than 200 people, many times the number killed in the gun-related crimes used to justify the most recent restrictions.

"A June 2000 CBS News report proclaimed Great Britain `one of the most violent urban societies in the Western world.` Declared Dan Rather: `This summer, thousands of Americans will travel to Britain expecting a civilized island free from crime and ugliness. . . (But now) the U.K. has a crime problem . . . worse than ours.`" (David Kopel, Paul Gallant, and Joanne Eisen, "Britain: From Bad to Worse," America`s First Freedom, 3/01, p. 26.) Street crime increased 47% between 1999 and 2000 (John Steele, "Crime on streets of London doubles," London Daily Telegraph, Feb. 29, 2000.) See also www.2ndlawlib.org/journals/okslip.html, www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment071800c.html, and www.nraila.org/research/19990716-BillofRightsCivilRights-030.html.



www.nraila.org...

Originally posted by Jakko

Besides this, cars are not made especially for "targetting things" where guns are.

Again, I ask. Who cares. We like guns, we buy guns, we use guns. If you don't like guns, don't buy one.

If you don't like anyone but the people in authority above you to have guns, then stay right where you are.

What do you care what we do. We happen to have 4 main purposes for guns. Although I would like to ask you HOW exactly you defend yourself against armed people (or even a group of people without guns) and against animals without the use of guns?

Are you going to ineptly wit them to death?

Fry: If you look at what happens in what year, it's a little bit subjective to conclude that it all has to do with guns becoming illegal.

Krazy: You act as if it's a very common thing to defend yourself from a group of people or from a group of animals.
I never had to do this, but I do know that when a group of people comes after me, it will take more than a gun to get away safely.
Shooting at people who are allready pissed at you tends to escalate everything, unless you shoot them in the head which will make sure their entire family comes after you for revenge.

Is it right to kill an intruder when it would be just as easy to shoot him in the leg or shoulder to maim him? Why kill them when all you need to do is immobilize them?

Originally posted by specialasianX
Is it right to kill an intruder when it would be just as easy to shoot him in the leg or shoulder to maim him? Why kill them when all you need to do is immobilize them?

Yeah, shoot him in the leg.
And then find out it was just the neightbour from 3 houses away, that wanted to borrow a cup of sugar.
Guns suck.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by specialasianX
Is it right to kill an intruder when it would be just as easy to shoot him in the leg or shoulder to maim him? Why kill them when all you need to do is immobilize them?

Yeah, shoot him in the leg.
And then find out it was just the neightbour from 3 houses away, that wanted to borrow a cup of sugar.
Guns suck.

Hmm... I don't think anyone in their right mind would just haul off and shoot someone without knowing what they were there for. If I heard crashing, breaking glass, then someone walking around downstairs and I had a handgun locked up beside my bed, I'd grab it and go investigate. I don't think anyone would just go down there and shoot the person without knowing exactly what they were there for. Even if you did find out it was a robber or whatever, you don't HAVE to shoot him. Just having the gun there, safety on even, is enough of a way to hold the guy until the cops there.

People do have to go thru gun-safety courses and get a license before getting a gun, you know this, don't you? Not just any idiot could get a gun (well, legally anyway).

People don't only use guns for shooting people. Like we've said people hunt, people shoot recreationally, some people just like to collect guns. Not everyone who buys a gun has the intent of shooting someone. But it does give peace of mind to know that you would be able to defend yourself, I think.

Personally, I have enough weapons (martial arts weapons) in my house to defend myself from anyone, besides the fact that I know martial arts. But when I get of age I want to get a handgun. My brother is in the process of getting his FID card so my grandfather can pass a few of his guns down in the family.

Like people have said... Banning guns doesn't solve anything. That puts guns only in the hands of badguys who shouldn't have the guns in the first place, and would be able to get them illegally even if they were banned. More awareness of gun safety is truly what's needed, not banning guns altogether.

I think I might have to end this argument, because it looks like Jethro and I are the only ones really keeping up with it, and it's just going over the same stuff over and over again. I'm not going to change your mind, it's made up. And you're not going to change my mind. So I don't see the point in continuing the discussion.

Thanks for the healthy discussion we've had, but I'm pretty much done here.

Originally posted by specialasianX
Is it right to kill an intruder when it would be just as easy to shoot him in the leg or shoulder to maim him? Why kill them when all you need to do is immobilize them?

Yes, it is right to kill and intruder. It is right to kill someone who attempts to come into your house, steal your things, kill or harm you or your family.

Is that clear enough for you? I have the right to protect My life and the life of my family.

Originally posted by Jakko
Yeah, shoot him in the leg.
And then find out it was just the neightbour from 3 houses away, that wanted to borrow a cup of sugar.
Guns suck.

A neighbor sneaks into your house to borrow sugar. I don't know where you live that people just walk into your house, but you have just proved your arguement is just another, and you say, "Guns suck" additude.

Like I said, we like guns and over here we have the right to have them for the four basic uses I outlined (which you really have yet to counter).

Another good use for guns is to keep the rodent problem down. Sit in your basement with a 22 pellet gun and wait for some stupid mouse or rat to run out. Hours of fun and entertainment.

But yes, unlike what you see in movies, it isn't "Hey, I have a gun, I have 6 bullets, that means I can kill six people!" And as the saying goes, "If you ban all guns, only people who will have them will be criminals." And if you go by what you here on the news, then yes guns are only used to kill people or in accidents. But if you decide not wait 3-7 weeks for a gun accident or 3-7 days for a CRIMINAL to use a gun, then you notice that guess what? Law abidding people very rarely use their guns to kill people. My uncle hunts, my dad collects, I use them to shoots rodents, my sister uses it for protection. No one in my family has ever gotten mad and shot someone.

Also, as said, knives, rope, hands, pillows, cars, screwdrivers, chair, bat, pipe, wrench, big book, belt, tire iron, hammer, axe, pencil, rock, club, glass, millions of things can be used to kill people if used improperly. So should we ban all of them cause in the wrong hands someone will kill with them. And with cars, they kill more than guns do. So you know what you can do? Bite me!

And yes, it is easier to kill with a gun than a knife. But it is also easier to kill someone with a car than a knife, so again, ban cars. You can use cyanide to kill someone, but that isn't banned. if it was, cigarrette companies would be out of business.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
knives, rope, hands, pillows, cars, screwdrivers, chair, bat, pipe, wrench, big book, belt, tire iron, hammer, axe, pencil, rock, club, glass, millions of things can be used to kill people

Yeah and since big books are just as dangerous as guns, there's really no point in making guns illegal, it would be like making rocks illegal!

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by James the Lesser
knives, rope, hands, pillows, cars, screwdrivers, chair, bat, pipe, wrench, big book, belt, tire iron, hammer, axe, pencil, rock, club, glass, millions of things can be used to kill people

Yeah and since big books are just as dangerous as guns, there's really no point in making guns illegal, it would be like making rocks illegal!

I think Jakko is starting to get it!!!

If we had 100% enforcement of our current gun laws this would not even be an issue. I would be very interested in any statistics you can find on legal gun owners committing gun crimes in America. The gun crime problem is really just a crime problem. The gang members and other criminals that you hear about never have a permit to carry a firearm! They still do it though.

The black market in firearms is far too widespread to just "outlaw" guns. That would be like outlawing fire! Prohibition does not work but moderation can.
You have no idea what us "legal" gun owners have to go through already! If I were to be pulled over for speeding I would have to keep my hands on the wheel until the officer comes to the window. Not because I am any threat to public safety but because I have a "legal" permit to carry a firearm. It's all in the computers and they know before you even stop.

My point is....Why restrict those of us who are law abiding citizens? I may not have the same priorities as KJ but guns are a part of my life and always have been. As a matter of fact, I just came back from my mountain home where I enjoyed a couple days of target shooting. Unfortunately for your side there were ZERO injuries or deaths involved.

GLad to hear it Fry.. ;+)
I am sure there's a lot of good folks like yourself out there, that can be trusted with guns.
My main question still stands, is functionality in balance with danger?
Does the need for guns justify the allowance?

Maybe you wouldn't abuse your gun, but we all know that when people get mad they sometimes say and do things they regret afterwards.
Guns just help this escalate even more.
And don't tell me that killing people with a big book is just as easy as killing them with a gun.
The problem with guns is that it is made so childishly easy to hurt someone, that the split second in which someone is mad enough to do stupid things, guns make all the difference for wether and how thing escalate.

A few minor points.

Someone suggested that in a home invasion situation it is a good idea to shoot the intruder in the leg, there are 3 reasons why this is NOT a good idea
1 All marksmanship training whether military, police, or civillian teaches one to aim for the center of mass, the chest. The rason is that in a life and death situation the body is flooded with adrenaline as part of the fight or flight response, in addition to increaseing strength, and pain tolerance it also reduces fine motor control As a result in this type of a sitution your accuracy will be lessened.
2 the leg is a very small moving target which makes it hard to hit.
3 My father was a police officer for the city of miami, As such he recieved extensive firearms training. in his words "Never pull a gun unless you plan to use it, Never plan to use it unless all other options are exhausted, If you do have to use it then make sure that the threat is rendered incapable of continuing to threaten."

As to the issue of killing in self defense, There are two insticts that all forms of life on this earth are born with, Survival and Procreation. If you really think about it there is only one as it can be argued that procreation is a form of survival at the genetic level.
All people have the right to defend thier lives and the lives of thier family from those who would deny them of such. Everyone has the right to protect themselves. Everyone has the right to protect thier family. EVERYONE

The idea tht gun owners are going to use a gun to win an argument is inane. I was raised in a gun friendly home, I recieved my first rifle at 9 years of age, I have fired literally hundreds of thousands of bullets at both indoor and outdoor ranges, I have never once fired a bullet at a person for any reason, and even in situations where tempers flared I have thrown fists not fired bullets.

In terms of guns involved in houshold accidents it is my firm belief that it is the fault of the homeowner NOT the gun. If you have a gun in your home, and either you have children, or even if you babysit once a year it is your reponsibility to have that gun locked up and out of reach of the child ( or anyon else for that matter)

A liberal is a conservative who has never been mugged.

[edit on 18-6-2004 by mwm1331]

Again, cars kill more than guns. Hell, cars kill the person using it, the gun just kills what it is pointed at. Also, shot in the leg, good chance to live. Hit in the leg by a car going just as fast as a bullet, bye bye leg, bye bye life. And again, ban guns, only criminals have guns, cause they the ones who use them illegally! Like in Aussie land, they banned guns, crime skyrocketed. Why? The average person couldn't defend themselves from the criminals! Or in Texas, where you can carry a concealed weapon, there are stores where you can't carry them cause they have signs and stuff saying no concealed weapons allowed. Guess who gets robbed? The ones with the "NO CONCEALED WEAPONS" signs.

Guns protect people. Besides, a gun isn't dangerous. A gun is as dangerous as a pillow. Both can be used to kill, but only if the person using it wants to kill. A gun can not kill you! Only the person using it can. And if the person really wants to kill you, he will kill you. He won't wait around to get a liscensed handgun or something, he will just flat out kill you! Knife, pillow, car, bat, tire iron, so forth. People say a gun makes it easier. Well guess what? A bomb is even easier! You just set a timer, light a fuse, whatever and run! Hell, I could make a bomb and have mercury thermometer timer on it and blow someone up. Just fill a 2 liter bottle of pop with lantern fuel(Far better than gas) have a long fuse, light it, drive away, BOOM! Bye bye whoever I wanted to kill. The thing that killed you is gone, so no fingerprints, no bullet to recover to see what gun fired it, no need to be anywhere near you so no need to worry about eyewitnessess, alot easier. So should we ban lantern fuel, pop bottles, so forth? Hell, a kid could make one in his garage.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Again, cars kill more than guns. Hell, cars kill the person using it, the gun just kills what it is pointed at. A gun is as dangerous as a pillow. Both can be used to kill, but only if the person using it wants to kill. Hell, a kid could make one in his garage.

*here we go again*
A car does not really fit into the same category as a gun.
A cars main function is to transport people and goods.
I'm not sure why I am even replying to this point, your post seems somewhat surreal.

And let's get this clear as well.
A gun is way more dangerous than a pillow
If you don't agree with this I suggest you try to find out what a gun is, and what a pillow is.
As for "a kid making one in their garage", I don't think the average kid can make a gun in their garage. Maybe kids in USA are in some way 100 % different from kids in Europe, but I doubt it.

[edit on 18-6-2004 by Jakko]