Guns and Good Stuff

As everyone knows, USA and Europe have different laws and rules regarding drugs and weapons.
In the netherlands, buying, smoking and selling weed is legal, where in the USA, buying, using and selling guns is legal.
In the past, the USA (and other countries) expressed a lot of critism towards the dutch government about these laws, acting as if the netherlands is all about weed for tourists and blaming the netherlands for a lot of problems at the borders with weed and similar drugs.

In the mean time, arguements and fights in the USA are often solved with guns. Problems in relationships escalate into deadly situations because of guns, and the cops are afraid to enter some of the most dangerous areas in big towns, because of guns.

What I am wondering is, how do the people from USA really feel about guns being legal in their country? Is there one good reason for such a law?
Wouldn't it be time for the USA administration to take a real good look at their own laws and problems, instead of rambling about our drugs-policy?

Our drugs policy protects people from using hard drugs as a logical step after using soft drugs.
By making soft drugs legal, and hard drugs illegal, step between softdrugs and harddrugs gets a lot bigger, where in the USA it does not really matter, it's all illegal anyways.

I think the USA is way behind the netherlands in both their laws about guns, and their laws about drugs.
What do y'all think?

I disagree and agree.

I agree that legalizing pot would not be such a big deal, in fact, it would be a good idea. They could then concentrate on more important drugs.

As for the guns, the history of our country is very telling as to why we have the gun laws we have. I've been to holland, it's a nice country, but it is not very big. As for solving problems with guns, it really doesn't happen as often as it seems it does. More people are stabbed or strangled or even beaten to death than are shot.

The problem we have here is not the legal guns owned by the millions of responcible gun owners, but it's the illegal kind that find their way into the hands of criminals.

After reading it, my post is very scatterbrained. Sorry, first post of the morning.

Originally posted by Jakko
Our drugs policy protects people from using hard drugs as a logical step after using soft drugs.
Making soft drugs legal, and hard drugs illegal, step between softdrugs and harddrugs gets a lot bigger, where in the USA it does not really matter, it's all illegal anyways.

I think you have been terribly misinformed. NO drug policy will ever PROTECT people from addiction. Just because your citizens, and tourists alike, can walk into a coffee shop and get high, you think your way of life is better? What happens when you walk out of that coffee shop? Do you instantly sober up? No.

You misunderstood.
When both hard drugs and soft drugs are illegal, people will be able to get them at the same (illegal) places.
When soft drugs is legal, and hard drugs is illegal, you will not find hard drugs at the places where people sell soft drugs.
The step from soft drugs to hard drugs that a lot of people (parents) worry about is bigger over here in the netherlands.

I think you have been terribly misinformed. NO drug policy will ever PROTECT people from addiction. Just because your citizens, and tourists alike, can walk into a coffee shop and get high, you think your way of life is better? What happens when you walk out of that coffee shop? Do you instantly sober up? No.

I think what he is saying is that why go for the expensive, hard, illegal stuff when you can get the legal stuff.

Although I don't like guns and support harder gun regulation laws, and I know that if our government were to take our rights away there would be nothing we could do about it, I hate to say it, but as soon as they do take our guns away we stop becoming a democracy. It's not that guns will stop this, its simply the fact that they are taking away a right guaranteed us by the constitution.

Legalizing weed or any other drug won't solve any of our problems with the war on drugs. Marijuana is illegal here in the U.S. and how many people on this very board use it? what would legalizing it do? same with guns if guns were suddenly illegal, do you think crime would dissappear? would these terrible inner-city gangs simply give up their weapons? NO! The right to bear arms is a double bladed sword, and unfortunately it seems like the only time we hear about guns is when they are used improperly, why don't you check out this link which gives some details about guns and gun abuse.

All I know is that if weed were legalized I still wouldn't use it. If someone is going to smoke weed, their going to do it regardless of the law. I think we would still have some of the same problems if it were legal. People who don't do drugs don't do them for reasons other than legality. If marijuana were legal it might soften the amount of people doing the heavier stuff, but thats about it.

Originally posted by Jakko
What I am wondering is, how do the people from USA really feel about guns being legal in their country? Is there one good reason for such a law?

The American Revolution?

Everyone has seen what happens when a government becomes totalitarian and oppresses its people, and one of the main reasons that US citizens have the right to bear arms is to prevent the government from becoming an oppressive tyranny.

Here are a couple of quotes from people who are a lot better qualified than me to speak of such things:

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
-- James Madison

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
-- Alexander Hamilton

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Just a few ideas on why guns are legal in america...

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Faisca]

Originally posted by MrJingles

I think what he is saying is that why go for the expensive, hard, illegal stuff when you can get the legal stuff.

Not everyone's drug of choice is weed. Every drug, weather it be hard or soft, has a different effect on the mind. I, for one, never really wanted to be stoned....I wanted to stay up for days on end and clean every nook and cranny of my house while periodically (every 30 seconds) peeking out the window to make sure no one was in the trees watching me. I would much rather rob you blind to get the hard....illegal stuff then to settle on a legal joint.

[Edited on 6/1/2004 by Venus]

Originally posted by Faisca
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."

Hmmm, well that's a nice twist for sure...
Governments are not afraid of anything, it's just common sense to realize that both intelligent and dumber people will be able to use guns.
It's just a matter of time before serious arguements are "settled" with guns, and such a quote turns it all around. As if people from the USA can be trusted with guns more than other people...

You could also turn it around. People that don't want to give up their right to own guns, because they never really trusted any leadership in the past.
Europeans are not this paranoid and realize that with a solid democracy and constitution, a government can not suddenly turn against their people.

I personally think it has to do with pride and macho behavior, instead of real fear for sudden government tiranny.

Originally posted by Jakko
I personally think it has to do with pride and macho behavior, instead of real fear for sudden government tyranny.

It's not fear, it's precautionary. Guns are tools, and as such have a purpose.

To defend against the government.
To defend the country from outside attack
To defend your life, the life of your family, and your property from harm
and to hunt.

Perhaps you have the luxury of living in a country small enough and not in the limelight like we are.

But we keep guns because that is not only the culture we come from, but also because we believe in the tenants brough by our founding fathers. There are many who do not like guns, and even more who do not have even a single gun. Don't think we are all gun totting nutcases.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

It's not fear, it's precautionary. Guns are tools, and as such have a purpose.

To defend against the government.
To defend the country from outside attack
To defend your life, the life of your family, and your property from harm
and to hunt.

Gee KJ that's a pretty paranoid response. When was the last time you needed a gun to defend yourself against the government or an outside attack?
The only logical reason to own a handgun in the US is to defend ourselves from each other..................Ya, right....and to "hunt"

Sorry I'm late ,

Governments are not afraid of anything, it's just common sense to realize that both intelligent and dumber people will be able to use guns.

Governments are afraid of revolutions, civil wars and popular uprisings. One or more of those could result if "they" decided to come and take our guns.
As far as the common sense issue, the same could be said for automobiles which cause many times more fatalities in the US and globally.

It's just a matter of time before serious arguements are "settled" with guns,

Or knives or sticks or power tools or book bindings or knitting needles or large heavy rocks or.........you get the point

As if people from the USA can be trusted with guns more than other people...

This made me laugh.
We ARE other people. We are everyone. American is not a race. American is not a religion. Simply put, we are a geographic location with a set of core values and laws. I think everyone(within reason) should be trusted with a firearm unless they give a reason to judge them differently.

People that don't want to give up their right to own guns, because they never really trusted any leadership in the past.

Why should we? Look at what "leadership" has done to the human race over the last five thousand years! Many of the people that moved to America did so to get away from this glorious "leadership" in europe and everywhere else around the world.

Europeans are not this paranoid and realize that with a solid democracy and constitution, a government can not suddenly turn against their people.

Have you ever heard of a guy named Hitler?

I personally think it has to do with pride and macho behavior, instead of real fear for sudden government tiranny.

Wrong again.
You obviously think we live like the old western movies. Far from it!
I have been a gun owner and target shooter for three decades. I never have nor do I plan to take a life with a gun. At the same time I always have that option open if the situation requires it.
Think of it as insurance. You never plan on needing heart bypass surgery but it's good to know it's covered if needed. Another way to look at it is a seatbelt. Why wear a seatbelt if you don't plan on crashing your car?
The list can go on and on.


BTW
The Netherlands is my FAVORITE european country! Much less oppressive than Belgium, France and Spain. I just wish you had more realistic gun laws for us law abiding folks.

Originally posted by Fry2
You obviously think we live like the old western movies. Far from it!
I have been a gun owner and target shooter for three decades. I never have nor do I plan to take a life with a gun. At the same time I always have that option open if the situation requires it.

That's exactly the kind of tough-talk I am talking about.
If the situation requires it?
And when would that be?
Like when you're really mad at someone?

It just does not make sense, everyone having a gun.
It's common sense that everyone makes mistakes, and that everyone can do things they regret. Why enlarge the results of mistakes by letting everyone have a gun?

Kids "borrowing" their fathers guns to shoot animals, in-house accidents when people want to take a look at the gun of their brothers, these events are not rare.
Can you explain when your gun really did help you?
Can anyone from USA come with an example that proved their gun usefull?
I am really curious.

OOPS

Forgot about the "drug" aspect.

I think the Netherlands has it right. The last time I was there they were working hard on getting the Heroin dependency under control in the right way. They were actually helping the addicts as opposed to incarcerating them....Novel idea.
I don't see marijuana as a dangerous drug but I do think it should be left to responsible adults and not children. Pretty much everything else out there I'm against anyone having access to as I have seen too many lives ruined by coc aine and smack in one form or another. I have been lucky so far as my part of America has not really been infected with Meth but I know it will come.
Find me a case of a marijuana stoned assailant killing someone for another joint and I'll give up my argument .

Originally posted by Fry2

It's just a matter of time before serious arguements are "settled" with guns,

Or knives or sticks or power tools or book bindings or knitting needles or large heavy rocks or.........you get the point

As if people from the USA can be trusted with guns more than other people...

This made me laugh.
We ARE other people. We are everyone. American is not a race. American is not a religion. Simply put, we are a geographic location with a set of core values and laws. I think everyone(within reason) should be trusted with a firearm unless they give a reason to judge them differently.

***Venus stands and applaudes***

Beautifully put Fry2...................I do not personally own a gun but my husband has several and I believe everyone has a right to protect what is "theirs".

Actually, I can.

I have prevented two crimes by having a gun. Once against myself and the other time a stranger. The best part is that I didn't have to fire a single shot. Sometimes the intimidation is enough (thankfully).
I'll not provide more details as I would need to divulge personal information.

Care to respond to the rest of my points?

Unbelievable.

I think everyone(within reason) should be trusted with a firearm unless they give a reason to judge them differently.

gets an applause???

I'm so glad I don't live in the USA.
Trusting everyone with a firearm, why not trust everyone with a rocket launcher as well while we're at it, or with a tank?
It's just for our protection.

You miss the point.

I actually do think that rocket launchers should be OK for a citizen who has no criminal or mental history. Why not? Why do your "leaders" have some devine right that you don't for protection of self and family?

Just because you fear guns gives you no right to dictate to the rest of the world about them. Do you actually know anything about firearms or are they just "bad"?

I'm not trying to be insulting I'm only speaking from experience. My wife was terrified of guns before we were married as were a couple of her friends. After I brought them to my place in the mountains and got them going with a few rifles on targets (and apples) they didn't want to do anything else. Now they want me to bring them to the pistol range. No more fear,and they all realize that guns don't kill people.

Stupidity and insanity have been a problem for the entire history of the human race! Do you honestly think that by outlawing certain tools you can reduce or even eliminate these two powerful forces? I hope not.

Different strokes for different folks...........


In logic comparisons of two cultures and then come to a subjective (god or bad) conclusion of any weight, merit or veracity is not possible and most often in such venues a forking waste for most with the exception of the bombastic blowhards.