911 Debunkers Take Beating on ATS.

Originally posted by impressme
Too many people in a deep state of denial, living in a make believe world of a perfect government.
Some of them cannot fathom the idea that their government would lie to them.
I wish I were ignorant, the truth is very painful I wish I didn’t know, what I know now.

Wrong. The government sucks and they have tested weapons on its own citizens for years. But that was before MSM and the internet. I know things they have done that would turn you white. Read a book man....

There is no ignorance but only education that can be obtained by looking at any theory and picking it apart with your OWN train of thought. Never agree until you research something yourself or look at the whole story and not just the cool part.

There was nothing to gain from the 9/11 attacks. There is no martial law. No internment camps. Just the wait for the next attack because it will come.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by esdad71]

I have 2 pieces of evidence. One that contradicts some of the truther and the other that contradicts the OS. I'd like to hear responses.

On 911, I was living in Arlington, VA and working at MSNBC. I rushed to work just after the first plane hit the twin towers. On the way to work, I saw the pentagon burning but got in before the PA plane went down.

News was pouring in from all over including official white house correspondants feeds. VP cheyney gave permission to shoot non-responsive planes down 20 mins prior to the PA crash.

Although it was not offcially mentioned that the plane was shot down, that was the awful assumption and nobody from the whitehouse would deny or confirm what we all suspected.
Within minutes of the crash, a distraught widow of one of the passengers was on the air calling for cheney's ass on a platter.

After another 30 mins, the white house released the official story of heroics. The woman had been contacted by a gvt. Official and told her husband lead the fight against the hijackers she became a hero in effect and was all over the networks.

My reaction was more than skeptical. How did they know what happened? If they had live audio of the fight, why didn't they release it or mention anything prior to the widow calling for cheney's dismissal?

My conclusion was the story had been adeptly spun and frankly, at the time, although I didn't agree with it, I understood the temptation to spin the story. From that point forward, however, I became very skeptical of any govt.news.

The second piece is eyewitness testimony from my best friend. He was driving to work on route 395 just approaching the pentagon when he saw with his own eyes, a jetliner bounce off the roof of a taxi cab just a few cars in front of him and contine towards the pentagon. He didn't see the plane hit the building. He was in shock from nearly being hit by a plane on the highway. He had slammed on his brakes to avoid a collision.

The driver of the cab was later interviewed and they showed the dent in his roof. My friend is the most honest man I have ever known.

I believe it was a plane that struck the pentagon. I still maintain that something nefarious is going on. The true story and all of theb details are being withheld and the spin machine has kicked into high gear and is getting more desparate to maintain the lies stated on 911.

I have no idea how deep this goes. I have not read much more than I've seen on ATS but if I can help the debate by identifying persons who MAY have alterior motives, then I have done my duty.

reply to post by impressme


"Too many people in a deep state of denial, living in a make believe world of a perfect government. Some of them cannot fathom the idea that their government would lie to them. I wish I were ignorant, the truth is very painful I wish I didn’t know, what I know now."

It's a great quote, and we really need a new investigation, even the more extreme style debunkers in their heart of hearts know that something is rotten, they may not realize it consciously, but deep down their brain is directing them to ATS in order to learn more. From now on I plan on responding only to people who show some understanding of all points of view, the far extremes of the 9/11 movement (extreme truther, debunker and dis-informationist) has to me been a negative.

Power and Equality

I've been thinking about this a lot, lately.

You know, we truthers need to be careful what we ask for. Let's look at the 2 other possible outcomes:

- Prevention: the events were able to be thwarted - we don't secure the Afghan pipeline that provides access to the sea for all those deals US companies cut to oil-rich, land-locked countries. We have no money and the US economy plummets quicker and deeper into the economic depression we're only starting to feel in the last 2 years.

- Full disclosure: the masses learn what we already know to be fact - total anarchy once people learn exactly what their government is capable of doing to its own people?

This whole thing sucks no matter which side you're on.

The other thing 'debunkers' need to undestand is we don't like being right - do they really think that we all hate our country so much that we would just glom onto this story with no basis? PLEASE... I'd love to go back to the days of ignorance.




[edit on 3/8/2010 by SquirrelNutz]

reply to post by Shadow Herder


Although I am one that has some serious questions about the B.S. 'official story' I kind of find it ironic how you slam debunkers for name calling when you call them insane for believing their government.

I pose that we should try to avoid name calling altogether. I have been guilty of it when I allowed my emotions to get the best of me. Especially on this topic.

Yes, I have seen them take a beating more and more lately. But I still haven't seen 100% verifiable 'facts'. Just the usual debunkers getting to the point where they try to deflect and, yes, begin name calling.

The problem is that we DO need debunkers on this site. Or else it just becomes a site of fantastic stories based on someone's ability to write things down. We need a good discussion.

The problem is that many of the good discussions on this very important topic do get bombarded with the 'typical' troll debunkers that simply are there to deflect and deter.

I welcome all evidence that is brought forth be it for the official story or against it. I will make up my own mind after I view it all.

Originally posted by zarp3333

The second piece is eyewitness testimony from my best friend. He was driving to work on route 395 just approaching the pentagon when he saw with his own eyes, a jetliner bounce off the roof of a taxi cab just a few cars in front of him and contine towards the pentagon. He didn't see the plane hit the building. He was in shock from nearly being hit by a plane on the highway. He had slammed on his brakes to avoid a collision.

The driver of the cab was later interviewed and they showed the dent in his roof. My friend is the most honest man I have ever known.

I believe it was a plane that struck the pentagon. I still maintain that something nefarious is going on. The true story and all of theb details are being withheld and the spin machine has kicked into high gear and is getting more desparate to maintain the lies stated on 911.

I have no idea how deep this goes. I have not read much more than I've seen on ATS but if I can help the debate by identifying persons who MAY have alterior motives, then I have done my duty.

I know that you trust your friend but you know that people on this site of all sites are going to question the authenticity of this statement. First, for someone to know someone who actually witnessed this take place is like winning the mega millions lottery. So there's that.

Second, if a jetliner hit the top of anyone's car and bounced off, well, that car wouldn't be a car anymore. It would be crumpled up chunks of metal.

Why? Well, the plane was supposedly flying at 500 mph when it 'bounced' off of that taxi. That taxi would NOT have stayed on the freeway let alone survive with a relatively small dent. We're talking some SERIOUS momentum here. Tons of aircraft with so much energy flying in at 500 mph hitting a 1 ton vehicle? Even grazing it you would have seen that vehicle sucked off of the road.

But what did it do? A nice little turn from the supposed impact and stop right on the bridge where it was supposedly hit.

That's where I would question any eyewitness accounts of a jetliner bouncing off of a car.

Just my two cents on that subject.

Originally posted by esdad71

Originally posted by impressme
Too many people in a deep state of denial, living in a make believe world of a perfect government.
Some of them cannot fathom the idea that their government would lie to them.
I wish I were ignorant, the truth is very painful I wish I didn’t know, what I know now.

Wrong. The government sucks and they have tested weapons on its own citizens for years. But that was before MSM and the internet. I know things they have done that would turn you white. Read a book man....

There is no ignorance but only education that can be obtained by looking at any theory and picking it apart with your OWN train of thought. Never agree until you research something yourself or look at the whole story and not just the cool part.

There was nothing to gain from the 9/11 attacks. There is no martial law. No internment camps. Just the wait for the next attack because it will come.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by esdad71]

I hate to admit it but yet again (maybe for the third time ever) I have to star one of your posts dad. I agree. Do your own research but make sure you look at the research others have presented. Not everyone has the capacity to pick apart the data that they observe and come up with solid conclusions but it is sound advice.

This thread isn't too strong. The premise in the OP is - well, it's pretty pointless, I think. For reasons that have been pointed out already, so I won't repeat.

One point though that I think worth emphasising. People with what I would call a "Truth Movement" style of thinking tend to group both the arguments and the individuals who disagree with them into manageable chunks: the "OS" - a monolithic and contiguous falsehood - is supported by "Debunkers" a monolithic and contiguous group whose nefarious agenda is to endorse the former.

This is simplistic. For a start I don't believe what the TM calls "The OS", and yet I also don't believe any of the Truth Movement's core theories. (I am also not paid by Mossad, but that's another point altogether). I don't like or endorse the US government and I don't believe that it tells the truth about anything unless it is in its interests to do so. I'm sure quite a lot of "debunkers" are like me.

But it suits the TM to see what they are up against as a common enemy supporting a single narrative, because then that narrative can be falsified by finding one single problem with it. You often hear TM people, when on the losing end of a debate, suggest that it doesn't matter, because for the "OS" to be wrong only one tiny part of it must be disproved.

This is true, but only if one accepts that the "OS" is an entity of much importance, rather than a flimsy set of conclusions cobbled together by an only occasionally competent and honest series of agencies, each with their own agenda.

This is why you rarely see anyone in the TM advance an opposing theory. To do this would risk debunking other parts of the TM. Focus is usually on nibbling at the "OS" and making as few positive claims as possible, because as soon as you make a positive claim you automatically debunk other bits of the TM.

Take the Pentagon flyover, or the missile attack at Shanksville, or Judy Wood's work, or pod planes, no planes, fake phone calls - all of these and lots more actually disprove and therefore debunk other bits of TM-supported narrative. But it doesn't matter to people in the movement because they have subordinated their need for "truth" (which would entail advancing new theories) for a constant attack on an OS strawman of their own making. This is both practically and intellectually weak. And both a symptom and a reason for the gradual decline of the movement.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
or pod planes.

You do know that civilian planes can carry pods?

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
or pod planes.

You do know that civilian planes can carry pods?

What's that got to do with the point I'm making?

Originally posted by GhostR1der
reply to post by Mr Sunchine

 

...falls at gravitational constant 9.8ms^2 ...
[edit on 7/3/10 by GhostR1der]

2010.3.8
fyi, i think the "gravitational constant" is G=6.67 x 10^-11 m^3Kg^-1s^-2
not 9.8ms^-2 that is the acceleration of objects under the influence of the strength of Earth's gravitational field, and its value at the Earth's surface, denoted g
op.cit.

Originally posted by TrueTruth
the people bent on being the most right only care about being right. if they cared an iota about progress, they'd knock off the guessing games and stick to the questions.

And WHO do you plan on questioning? The american government that lies every third sentence or truthers/skeptics that don't really know what to believe?

Just curious, I hope you don't take it as an insult.

reply to post by TheLoony


questions are important.
but why ARE the people who dont beleive the BIG conspiracy sheeple and blah blah remember these are all just opinions if anyone had real proof of a conspiracy i assure you there is no way they would be limited to posting on ATS the world would be their audience but there is no proof only ideas often takin from poor if any new sources. and profoundly childish You Tube videos.

I bet at least one ATS er is thinking im sum sort of government agent out to disinfo
the paranoia is abounding and clouding any real conspiracy that is yet to be found.

Be Well and think for yourself Peoples its all we got...


[edit on 8-3-2010 by triplescorpio]

reply to post by esdad71


your avatar drives actually makes me angry ODD?
Be Well
im gonna go have a seizure now

911 truthers bother me. I was in Manhattan at the time staying at the Park Hotel. I get so tired of the pseudoscience nonsense. Everything has to be a conspiracy right? And if I disagree with you I'm a disinfo agent right? Rubbish.

I hear people in caves couldn't do this. I don't need government help to scare people on a plane into thinking I have a bomb or to turn off a transponder and hide in air traffic.

It's the 1st time a steel highrise collapsed. Uh no. Madrid. FIre unprotected steel. It was the 1st time a building of this design went down(tube in a tube). Same thing with building 7, cantilever center and hit by another building.

It collapsed into it's own footprint. Umm not quite. Floors fell straight down and columns leaned out. This is the only way the buildings could collapse due to the design. (journal of mechanical engineering)

The fireman said there were only 2 small fires. He was on the 78th floor and the only thing that hit there was a wingtip. The78th floor was a skylobby without much material to burn. If there were only two small fires on the 78th floor just before collapse, it only agrees with the NIST report. Cooling trusses contracted and pulled the columns in because the fires moved to other areas.

Explosives were placed during the weekend powerdowns. Uh nobody reliable will verify a powerdown. And the guy I was visiting worked for ML and he had power on Sat.

My favorite is The towers were built to withstand an aircraft impact. They did. NIST never said the jets collapsed the towers. Fire, impact damage and lack of fireproofing over the steel did.
Kevin Ryan said the UL certified the steel in the lower towers which didn't fail in the NIST test. When did the UL start certifying steel? Wasn't Kevin Ryan a water tester who didn't participate in the investigation? Wasn't he later fired for slander? The fireproofing on the assemblies was 1/2 inch rated for 45 minutes and the unprotected steel wasn't tested.

Just for reference you would have needed tons of thermite to blow the building. How can you hide 5 tons of thermite? And to cut those particular beams the barrels would have to be wrapped around the columns.

Oh the squibs. The towers were 95% air when a floor collapsed the air had to go somewhere.

There has never been one of your famous scientists that has published a peer reviewed article in a scientiffic journal saying that the towers collapse was impossible.

There, no emotion just facts. Am I a disinfo agent because I don't beleve the truther stuff? No. I don't think I've ever posted on the topic here. When I hear most truther arguments I here gullibility and pseudoscience. Nothing reliable. I live in the US and if I thought my government did this I'd leave. How on earth can you live in a country where you think the government would do this to you?

More people believe in aliens than believe the US blew the towers.

Now if someone can offer me some intelligent scientiffic proof that we blew up the towers I'd love to see it. But I'm not packing my suitcase just yet, because I don't believe it exists.

reply to post by DrJay1975


I too am sick of the psuedo science and you tube science the worst kind of all it gets frustrating to have a conversation with someone who thinks it was hologram when i was there with all NYC its down right insulting.
Be Well

[edit on 8-3-2010 by triplescorpio]

Aren't we forgetting the passengers on both Planes! i only say this because there very rarely mentioned! What happend to the Bodys? yea think there would be Body parts all over the place! I want to know?

reply to post by DCDAVECLARKE


This video, aired over four years after 9/11 ------



Four years later, and victims' body parts found.

Yet, NO signs of explosives.

Originally posted by DrJay1975
It's the 1st time a steel highrise collapsed. Uh no. Madrid. FIre unprotected steel. It was the 1st time a building of this design went down(tube in a tube).

Evidence?

Originally posted by DrJay1975
911 truthers bother me...

I live in the US and if I thought my government did this I'd leave. How on earth can you live in a country where you think the government would do this to you?

People who use this argument bother me. It's as if they are assuming that it would be the first time that the government has sacrificed the lives of its citizens for a "greater" political aim.

Are you really that ignorant to the past misdeeds of government towards its citizens?