Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution

reply to post by Donny 4 million


No one worships Darwin. It is far from "communist" to educate the kids. I don't even think you understand what that word means (well, two words, probably - "communist" and "educate").

"Communist way"? Hahahaha you are funny. Real funny. No, wait, scary.

Oh, and also "socialism" - you don't seem to know what that word means, either.

I understand why you are scared of communism and socialism, judging by your age, you were most likely heavily indoctrinated into being scared of the "Red Menace", hence you being scared of "communist" plots and "socialism".

As I said, scary.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Deaf Alien

Evolution is a theory! Religious people keep on harping that evolution is "only" a theory.

It is a theory! Just like gravity theory, electronics theory, and just about anything else in science.

A theory is created to fit the observations in nature.

Science does not concern itself with spirituality.

I think it is called the Law of Gravity, and are you talking about Ohm’s law, Gauss’ law, Coulomb’s law..a few other…? There is a difference between theory and law, Evolution is a theory and gravity is a law. You didn’t go to a public school did you?

The theory of evolution is also very interesting. Did you know that the theory was voted on by the majority of the scientific community and it won over other theories by a very slim margin, and when you look at it Darwin invested only five years traveling and working on that theory. Because of all this I think all of us can see it is not a law and there still much more to discover about evolution and man’s history.


[edit on 8-3-2010 by Xtrozero]

The meaning of the word "theory" in science is different than how we use it in everyday speech. Scientific Theory does not mean its unproven, unproven theories are called "hypotheses". We also have the Theory of Electomagnetism, Quantum Field Theory, Relativity Theory, Cell Theory... All these are proven beyond doubt and still are called theories. Just like the Theory of Evolution. Law is a law, and theory is a collection of laws.

en.wikipedia.org...

I hope this will finally put an end to this "Its only a theory" fallacy.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by Maslo]

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by 911stinks

 

And this why religion has not room in educational teachings in this nation, yes in the privacy of the home parents can supplement education with religion at their leisure, but when in America our own educational system and literature are been sabotage by religious rights we most wonder why our educational system has gone down the crap and now we rank in the lowest in education when compare to other developed nations and developing nations in the world.

Yes Americas children are getting dumber no smarter.

The irony.

Yes the irony....

Removing religion from schools has been a very resent event....lol be careful what you write my friend....

Originally posted by Donny 4 million



This is totally because the government has taken the kids in a communist way from out of the control of the parents. Like Um let's sing the praises of our leader in class instead of saying one nation under god.

It's not communist. Fascists have done it, democracies have done it, monarchies have done it, Oligarchies have done it, Utopianists and technocrats have done it. You are conflating a general trend in the modernization of humankind as something communistic. That's simply bollocks.

Leaders have been praised in state schools ever since the advent of organized civilization - long before Communism and Marx ever came along.

" One nation under god " was introduced in the 1950's. Maybe that was done by the communists, perhaps`?

[edit on 8-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by Donny 4 million

 

No one worships Darwin. It is far from "communist" to educate the kids. I don't even think you understand what that word means (well, two words, probably - "communist" and "educate").

"Communist way"? Hahahaha you are funny. Real funny. No, wait, scary.

Oh, and also "socialism" - you don't seem to know what that word means, either.

I understand why you are scared of communism and socialism, judging by your age, you were most likely heavily indoctrinated into being scared of the "Red Menace", hence you being scared of "communist" plots and "socialism".

As I said, scary.

Obviously you are ashamed to tell whether you worship Lenin and his values over another's to worship as they please.

reply to post by Xtrozero

Is evolution really a learning fundamental?

If evolution is in the childs curriculum, then he has a right to learn about it, no matter what his parents consider true.

I do think that every child should learn about evolution at least a bit, in their elementary school or somewhere. It is a part of general knowlegde.

How about once they pass all the tests on creationism then you can show them some other(s) theories too. Anything else that you would like to dictate as what must or must not be taught?

Every parent is free to teach his children whatever creation myth he subscribes to. But in addition, he HAS to teach current scientific consensus - evolution.

If he does not want to teach evolution, there is only one thing he can do - convince majority of biologists that they are wrong.

Need to raise the BS flag on this one....home schooling is by far better than public schools. So just what is a professional? I did platform instruction in the military that I received a practicum certificate for and I have a BS in physiology and with these two pieces of paper I can teach public schools in 40 states without an internship program required.

I dont know how it is where you live, but here, teachers in public schools must have a pedagogical degree in what they teach. So you could maybe teach that military thingy and physiology. But not any other subjects.

Harvib

No the Government does not have this right. The parents retain this right unless given up by consent.

I disagree.

So the scientist are in charge of mandating the curriculum?

Scientists are in charge of creating the curriculum, the state is in charge of mandating it.

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin

Originally posted by Donny 4 million



This is totally because the government has taken the kids in a communist way from out of the control of the parents. Like Um let's sing the praises of our leader in class instead of saying one nation under god.

It's not communist. Fascists have done it, democracies have done it, monarchies have done it, Oligarchies have done it, Utopianists and technocrats have done it. You are conflating a general trend in the modernization of humankind as something communistic. That's simply bollocks.

Leaders have been praised in state schools ever since the advent of organized civilization - long before Communism and Marx ever came along.

" One nation under god " was introduced in the 1950's. Maybe that was done by the communists, perhaps`?

[edit on 8-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Anti-Communists check your history--- Look up "cold war" and " Korean War" and "Vietnam War" "Bay of Pigs" "Naval blockade of Cuba"
I hope you know how to at least put your rubbers on.

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Yes you are right it is not, but since the 80s with the Regan years and the various group that sprouted after he didn't gave up to the religious rights in schools, Education has been gone down the hill, still he not only did some major cuts on education but allowed a group of religious zealots to monitor the public school system books until this day..

Government has been at fault with targeting public school funding when it comes to deficit cuts.

Education has been denigrated in America, Seems that Science and Math has become a "tabu" subject been pulled apart by interest groups.

To me it seems that neither the government or the Religious groups involved in the debate have any desired to bring the US to world education standards that we no longer are ahead.

Right now in neck of the woods The state of Ga is about to do a massive cut involving no only the public education system but also higher education, from colleges to University because budget cuts, rather than cutting on all the pork, lavish retirement accounts for government workers and stop the ever growing state government they are targeting our future.

Then we should wonder if keeping Americas future dumb and stupid is what our government and interest groups really are trying to achieve.

reply to post by Conclusion


If I may chirp in. Firstly, I think ATS frowns on informal polls so I won't answer.

But the thing that concerns me about your over-simplified querey is that some parents may not be as suitable to teach their off-spring as well as a highly qualified teacher who excels in various disciplines, course studies and curriculum. Granted, as long as the child can pass their General Educational Development, or GED (HS equivalency test.) it matters not. But then the parents have probably nurtured clones of themselves. However intelligent or gifted, I doubt parents could be experts at everything.

Further, their is much to be said for the socialization skills and exposure to diverse subject matter.

"Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They came through you but not from you and though they are with you yet they belong not to you." Kahlil Gibran




[edit on 8-3-2010 by kinda kurious]

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

Is evolution really a learning fundamental?

If evolution is in the childs curriculum, then he has a right to learn about it, no matter what his parents consider true.

I do think that every child should learn about evolution at least a bit, in their elementary school or somewhere. It is a part of general knowlegde.

How about once they pass all the tests on creationism then you can show them some other(s) theories too. Anything else that you would like to dictate as what must or must not be taught?

Every parent is free to teach his children whatever creation myth he subscribes to. But in addition, he HAS to teach current scientific consensus - evolution.

If he does not want to teach evolution, there is only one thing he can do - convince majority of biologists that they are wrong.

Need to raise the BS flag on this one....home schooling is by far better than public schools. So just what is a professional? I did platform instruction in the military that I received a practicum certificate for and I have a BS in physiology and with these two pieces of paper I can teach public schools in 40 states without an internship program required.

I dont know how it is where you live, but here, teachers in public schools must have a pedagogical degree in what they teach. So you could maybe teach that military thingy and physiology. But not any other subjects.

Harvib

No the Government does not have this right. The parents retain this right unless given up by consent.

I disagree.

So the scientist are in charge of mandating the curriculum?

Scientists are in charge of creating the curriculum, the state is in charge of mandating it.

Tell us why the teaching of evolution is so important.
Will it help us grow more food for hungry mouths?
Get a man to the moon so there is potential to find habitat other than earth.? Clean up pollution?
What ? What?

reply to post by Xtrozero


Actually back in the days Religion was not interfering with education now that has become such a big issue education is nothing but a battleground for religious interest groups and the government.

Yes, I had evolution in the 70s in middle school but one thing I remember very well was not the fight against having the subject in the curriculum even when we had prayer in the mornings.

But what I remember most of my teen years is when the fundamentalist groups started to invade the schools while screaming anybody that didn't not agree with them, from sinners to evil doers, still while our Prayers where silence and with respect their prayers were loud and disruptive and to make a point.

That is what I remember of religion in the 70s.

Now in my Island of PR the books no longer comes from Spain and the fundamentalist has taken over the Island, the education system is worst than in the US, Teen pregnancy is at the highest ever and drugs has taken over the Island with all the religiousness found every where.

The irony . . .

reply to post by Donny 4 million


Hm... you did not live under communism, did you? I am asking this because me and my family have, and every time you use that word, I have to laugh.

Communism is when your house, money and possesions are taken, and you are relocated to live in a half destroyed house on the other end of a country.
Communism is when your children are not allowed to study, no matter how clever they are.
Communism is when they imprison and beat your loving ones, because your father had too much money. You smile, because thats still the better case.
Communism is when a university professor has to wipe the streets, because he opened his mouth.
Communism is when you know that there are secret service agents in that building over the street, watching your every move day and night, and they are not even hiding it.

Teaching children what scientists think is true is not communism, it is common sense.

Originally posted by marg6043

Now in the last 30 years the US education has gone down the crapper.

Wonder why? after all it was on the top during my time even with evolution in full force and in the classroom.

Boy do you have things reversed. Why has it gone down? Because of religion forcing the issue? Lol… really, I mean really?

First, just for a moment let’s sidestep the evolution/creationism debate. So back in the 70s when you pledged allegiance to the flag and sang god bless America, and maybe even prayed in school, your school was much better than it is today with all that removed?

The bottom line is schools are failing because the family is failing, plain and simple. This whole attitude that it’s the school responsibility to teach everything to the kids is an attitude that has sprang up in the last 30 years. Please put two and two together on this, for religion is not the culprit this time and one just needs to look at all the dysfunctional and emotionally voided families out there that also lack any religion in them too. The family unit is disappearing along with many traditional values as they are replaced with Secular values. I’m not going to get into a traditional/secular debate but secularism is really come alive (they are winning) in the last 20 plus years so just remember you reap what you sow.


[edit on 8-3-2010 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Donny 4 million



Anti-Communists check your history--- Look up "cold war" and " Korean War" and "Vietnam War" "Bay of Pigs" "Naval blockade of Cuba"

I fail to see how that even is an argument. As I said, the words "under god" were added in 1954 - so they aren't exactly the founding father's heritage. You get that my implying it was the Commies was a pun????

I hope you know how to at least put your rubbers on.

Why do you constantly feel the urge to denigrate the people who take up an argument with you? Where does all that hate come from? I suppose it comes from the same lousy place that "educated" you.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Schools failing has nothing to do with families being non-religious. Most failing schools deal with economic and administration issues.

Originally posted by 911stinks


Personally, I feel the child should know both, to be able to make their own decision. The study of the differences between the two would probably make an interesting subject on it's own.

The bible, to me, is a fascinating piece of history, and is full of good instruction. Teaching young ones about the differences between creationism and evolution gives the child a chance to see that there really are two completely trains of thought on how we came about.

I think good, God respecting parents are fed up with the holes in evolution, and the constant changing of science to fit with inconvenient truths, and the forcing of the religion (evolutionism) down our childrens throats.

news.yahoo. com
(visit the link for the full news article)

While I applaud your opinion that both schools of thought should be taught, I think an appropriate caveat would be "taught only in home school or private Christian schools". Creationism has no place in public schools.

Also, I have to take exception to your comment that;

God respecting parents are fed up with the holes in evolution, and the constant changing of science to fit with inconvenient truths, and the forcing of the religion (evolutionism) down our childrens throats.

In fact, I think that most "God respecting" parents view the Bible as a spiritual document and not an historical document. It would be more accurate to say that Fundamentalist Christian parents are fed up. Most mainstream Chritians have no problems w/evolutionary theory including myself.

Originally posted by Maslo

If evolution is in the childs curriculum, then he has a right to learn about it, no matter what his parents consider true.


I do think that every child should learn about evolution at least a bit, in their elementary school or somewhere. It is a part of general knowlegde.

Well the truth is they should get a taste for many theories with evolution being the one that is explained as the most accepted at this point in time.

But in the main argument many of you are willing to throw out the baby with the bath water. Homeschooling is far superior to public schools and I would happily debate that with anyone. The huge amount of empirical data, from test scores, to personal activities, college grads, post grads etc all and I mean all favor the homeschooler.

So you are going to argue that one family that wants to teach creationism is destroying their children and/or their children’s chances in life. Give me a break!!

Every parent is free to teach his children whatever creation myth he subscribes to. But in addition, he HAS to teach current scientific consensus - evolution.

If he does not want to teach evolution, there is only one thing he can do - convince majority of biologists that they are wrong.

By law no they don't.... but once again what is the complaint here? Are you afraid the homeschooler will not be able to make their own choices once they head off to college...oh with a better educational foundation to do extremely well in college?

The funny part is that if you went to let’s say LA and a year after high school you gave 1000 public school grads a simple test on evolution what do you think they would have as answers… it would be very sad, but then who cares, they don’t…

reply to post by marg6043


I gave you a star. Not necessarily for being correct but for giving content that addresses the issue.
No one can be totally correct in these realms.
One thing I would like to point out is what you brought up.
The problem is the FUNDAMENTALISTS not the fundamentals.
Same on the other side of the fence.
Thanks for pointing that out Marge.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by Donny 4 million]

reply to post by Donny 4 million


Anyone can worship whatever they want. In school, education should be paramount. If parents can't understand that their kids are not political or religious tools to use, then they have forfeited their right to educate their kids. Just like homeschooled kids would clearly have their education put in jeopardy if their parents taught them that the answer to 2 + 2 = banana, and that there is no such thing as the number 17. That is directly analogous to parents teaching their kids that creationism, for example, is in any way accurate.

reply to post by Donny 4 million


Stay on topic, comrade.

reply to post by Donny 4 million


Because it explains and underpins all of biology, one of the main disciplines of science that is pretty well understood to be of vital importance to a well-rounded science education.

To not teach kids that is to leave out all of biology. To teach them it's contested would be downright incorrect and intellectually dishonest (actually, just plain dishonest). Will it grow more food? Actually, yes, if any kids become biologists (which they do, as that's where biologists come from). Will it get man to the moon? Not directly, but it will let him eat while he's there. Clean up pollution? Quite possibly, as plants have been found that "eat" pollution. Biology can expand on that, make them more efficient, and get them more widespread, possibly even combining them with the plants that will feed the world.

So yeah, it's a big deal. Shows what you know.

reply to post by Maslo


No, "Communism" is, apparently, anything Donny 4 million doesn't like, or calls his (any anyone else's) parenting skills into question, whether real or not.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by davesidious]

Originally posted by Xtrozero


I think it is called the Law of Gravity, and are you talking about Ohm’s law, Gauss’ law, Coulomb’s law..a few other…? There is a difference between theory and law, Evolution is a theory and gravity is a law. You didn’t go to a public school did you?

Uhm.. I think it is called the theory of Gravity, which is represented in physics by a symbolic formula expressing a law.

Same with evolution which is a theory that is represented f.e. by MENDEL's LAWs in genetics, or by the Hardy-Weinberg principle (read:law) in population genetics etc, etc, etc.

Look through the previous posts explaining the different uses of "theory" in popular language and in the scientific discourse. I think that is where you confuse things.

The theory of evolution is also very interesting. Did you know that the theory was voted on by the majority of the scientific community and it won over other theories by a very slim margin, and when you look at it Darwin invested only five years traveling and working on that theory. Because of all this I think all of us can see it is not a law and there still much more to discover about evolution and man’s history.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by Xtrozero]

Care to link to that vote? If you believe that scientific consensus is achieved by some kind of a vote by some superior cabal of scientists you are very far from the mark.

What other theories did they vote down? Let me guess? Creationism?

BTW don't link me to some obscure vote of the RSS or something like that - they are not the people who decide or the ones who used to decide what is true in science and what not - in fact, there are no such people or no such cabal and that is the beauty of science, only arguments count, mass appeal does not.

This is one of the most ridiculous stories I have ever read in my life. If you'd actually work at a University and in research like I once did, you'd understand how funny such claims sound to people like us,

BTW Darwin spent his whole life contemplating various aspects of his main body of work. He may have only been in the field for 5 years but ever since he had the opportunity to follow and see the research of many other contemporary biologists... You should look up one of his biogrpahies once, it may help. You act like he developed his theories while en route and then just turned his back on the whole subject. That's totally untrue.

So all of your points have been rebutted. Maybe it's because you were generalizing or in a hurry but none of the points you made on Darwin/Evolution are really valid.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 8-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]