The Final Minutes of the South Tower - The flaming inferno

Originally posted by jthomas
We're talking specifically about the firemen's accounts in the OP.

Yes, and they DID NOT report any jet fuel fires on the lower floors as the official story states.

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by jthomas
We're talking specifically about the firemen's accounts in the OP.

Yes, and they DID NOT report any jet fuel fires on the lower floors as the official story states.

The accounts in the OP refer to the specific firemen's recordings as they reached the 78th and 79th floor.

I repeat from my earlier post:

Remember, ae911truth states quite clearly in the video:

”Either there were emergency teams operating in the building, or there was a tremendous inferno of sustained temperatures as required to obliterate steel.

“The two possibilities are mutually exclusive.”

Do you agree that ae911truth's statement is false?

reply to post by REMISNE


Actually, there is at least one documented case of fire on the lower lobby floors upon impact. Her name is VASANA MUTUTANONT. She was arriving at work when her tower was struck. She turned to run but a piece of glass cut her leg and she fell soon to be engulfed by a fireball. She suffered burns over 40% of her body.

reply to post by REMISNE


Also, the reason for the fires in the elevators can be explained a biut by survivor Judy Wein. She was in a 78th floor sky lobby when the plane hit and saw the fires rush into the open

There, Wein decided to stop off in what was known as the skylobby — a transfer point between local elevators to the higher floors and express elevators to the ground. The lobby was the main junction in her daily, two-elevator commute to her office 1,300 feet in the sky.

Where the plane struck was in direct line of the express elevator shafts.

A deafening explosion and a searing blast of heat ripped through the lobby. The air turned black with smoke. Flames burst out of elevators. Walls and the ceiling crumbled into a foot of debris on the floor. Shards of glass flew like thrown knives.

The blast threw people like dolls, tearing their bodies apart.

No one knew it was a plane.

Judy Wein flew through the air and landed on her side, shattering her forearm, breaking three ribs and puncturing a lung.

Oh my God, she thought. Why didn't I keep walking down?

As the blow from the jet made the building rock first north, then south, she felt herself sliding across the floor toward the express elevators. A minute before, the elevator doors had been a route to safety. Now they were useless, gaping and askew. Flames burned in the shafts.

This is how I'm going to die, she thought. In a burning elevator. What a waste.

Donna Spera's arms were burning. Her watch felt like it was melting, and she flicked her wrist to get it off. She dropped her cell phone, the one she had been using to try to call her friend Paulie in the north tower.

This is an eyewitness account to the fires going into the shafts...

There was a thread started yesterday about the jet fuel and the elevator shafts....www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now, as for everyone comparing the WTC area of fire to other buildings....

ONE floor of the World Trade Center contained around 3600 square meters of floor space. For nine stories with fires that is around 21,800 square meters.

In comparison the Windsor tower only had 20,000 square meters, the TVCC building even less. Yes both of these building survived, but they also did not have 10-30 extra stories worth of weight on top of them.

Originally posted by CalibratedZeus
There was a thread started yesterday about the jet fuel and the elevator shafts....www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now, as for everyone comparing the WTC area of fire to other buildings....

ONE floor of the World Trade Center contained around 3600 square meters of floor space. For nine stories with fires that is around 21,800 square meters.

In comparison the Windsor tower only had 20,000 square meters, the TVCC building even less. Yes both of these building survived, but they also did not have 10-30 extra stories worth of weight on top of them.

And the steel framing attached to the concrete of the Windsor Tower collapsed.

Originally posted by jthomas
The accounts in the OP refer to the specific firemen's recordings as they reached the 78th and 79th floo.

So they just ignored the jet fuel fires and did not report them?

Do you agree that ae911truth's statement is false?

Only if the official story is false.





[edit on 17-3-2010 by REMISNE]

Originally posted by esdad71
Actually, there is at least one documented case of fire on the lower lobby floors upon impact.

But nothing of the jet fuel fires reported by the team that made it to the 78th floor.

Originally posted by esdad71
Also, the reason for the fires in the elevators can be explained a biut by survivor Judy Wein. She was in a 78th floor sky lobby when the plane hit and saw the fires rush into the open

But no reports from the team that made it to the 78th floor of jet fuel fires on the lower floors.

Also remember there is only one shaft that goes from the floors where the planes hit to the sub basement where jet fuel fire were stated to have been by the official story.

Originally posted by CalibratedZeus

Now, as for everyone comparing the WTC area of fire to other buildings....

ONE floor of the World Trade Center contained around 3600 square meters of floor space. For nine stories with fires that is around 21,800 square meters.

In comparison the Windsor tower only had 20,000 square meters, the TVCC building even less.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/59906de2d38c.jpg[/atsimg]

Wrong. The 44 story Mandarin Oriental Hotel at the Beijing CCTV center had 100,000 square meters of the building destroyed. That converts to 1,076,391 square feet; quite a bit bigger than your mere claimed less than 20,000 square meters don't you think?

Beijing Mandarin Hotel

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9d96bc373b63.jpg[/atsimg]

Regardless, the lower WTC1 floors were undamaged, and built much stronger than the upper floors, and through the path of greatest resistance, would have taken much much longer than 11 seconds to crush and pulverize much of the towers into fine powder, and hurl hundreds of 4 ton pieces of steel up to 600 feet away in all directions.

WTC Tower collapse times

Therefore, the towers' resistance to collapse was removed by explosives.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/23e49313b3e0.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by jthomas
The accounts in the OP refer to the specific firemen's recordings as they reached the 78th and 79th floo.

So they just ignored the jet fuel fires and did not report them?

You can listen to ae911truth's recording in the OP. If you're confused what floors they were on in the specific recordings provided, let us know.

Do you agree that ae911truth's statement is false?

Only if the official story is false.

The only "official story" being discussed in this thread is the recordings of the firemen presented in the OP and ae911truth's representation of those recordings.

I am certain that the recordings of the NYFD firemen in WTC 2 accounts are true and ae911truth's representation of them is false.

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by SPreston

 

If you look at the flames they are 'stories' high meaning at least 15-20 high. The picture I posted shows a fire that is destroying anything it comes in contact with with isolated pockets of no fire that were used for safety until collapse.

What? You surely exaggerate? The flames in your pic of WTC1 are 15 to 20 stories high? No way Jose.

The alleged Flight 11 aircraft struck floors 94 through 98, and there are only 110 floors in the tower. So there are only 16 floors above the lowest impact floor.

The flame on the left wall is maybe a floor and a half; one room and a pocket of fire.

The flame on the right wall is maybe emcompassing 2-3 floors, and maybe 8-12 rooms. Yet another slightly larger pocket of fire. I see a few more tiny pockets of fire through the smoke. Where are the other fires you can see, except in your mind?

I see mostly some fuel starved black smoke. This was the best photo you could come up with to prove your nonsense?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/18bfdaac9cb8.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 3/17/10 by SPreston]

Originally posted by _BoneZ_

Nowhere in any video or image of the towers or WTC7 do you see anything close to that magnitude of fire. Yet we're led to believe that the "isolated pockets of fire" reported by the firefighters and evidenced by all available images and video, are what brought 3 steel-structured highrises down, completely and totally, for the first time in history. Not before 9/11, not after.

Blind faith is the only way to believe the official version of 9/11.

We need a new, independent, international investigation into 9/11 because all available evidence doesn't add up to what we were led to believe.

BoneZ, since you are a member of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and the discussion in this thread has revealed discrepancies in the video your group put out, perhaps you can tell us if you still support this statement and if A&E intends to correct it.

You can see in the pictures and videos that the major fires were burning on the 80th floor of WTC 2 and above and no fireman had yet reached them. The recordings are specifically of those firemen who reached the 78th and 79th floors where only small fires were burning

But ae911truth states quite clearly in the video:

”Either there were emergency teams operating in the building, or there was a tremendous inferno of sustained temperatures as required to obliterate steel.

“The two possibilities are mutually exclusive.”

First, all photos, videos, and firemen accounts quite clearly demonstrate that fires were only burning heavily on floors 80 and above.

Second, the claim is also a fallacy of false alternatives. There are not just two mutually exclusive alternatives. The third alternative, which is the one that is actually true, is that the firemen were operating in the building where there was no major fires burning.

I am interested how Architects and Engineers intend to explain its discrepancy and whether they will correct it and when.

Thanks in advance.

[edit on 17-3-2010 by jthomas]

Originally posted by SPreston
reply to post by SPreston

I see mostly some fuel starved black smoke. This was the best photo you could come up with to prove your nonsense?

Fire Intensity

It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke. Soot is generated by incompletely burned fuel; hence, the WTC fire was fuel rich—hardly surprising with 90,000 L of jet fuel available.

reply to post by SPreston



A few Stories meaning about 15-20 feet high. An average story is about 10 feet. I would think that someone with architectural knowledge would have just understood that without an explanation. I was not trying to trick anyone.

I have already addressed the 'black' oxygen starved fires. That fire is consuming everything in that office building including products made from paper and plastics which would produce the plume that exists in that picture. That would make a black/grey smoke as was seen on 9/11.

The pictures is undoctored and evidence enough that there were large fires within the last 25 minutes prior to collapse. You would truly need to be blind to not see and understand how large they were. Also, NO firefighter made it past that 78th floor that i am aware of. Do you care to elaborate why since it is officially known that the stairs were out and they reported impeded progress with fires what happened when they got there?

Originally posted by CalibratedZeus

Originally posted by SPreston
reply to post by SPreston

I see mostly some fuel starved black smoke. This was the best photo you could come up with to prove your nonsense?

Fire Intensity

Didn't you bother to read your own link?

Yet you chose to quote Thomas W. Eagar, a proven pseudo-scientist and professional liar.

In your link, NIST and FEMA stated officially that most of the jet fuel from both aircraft was burned off in the first 5-10 minutes after impact.

Both NIST and FEMA also stated officially that black smoke means cooler oxygen starved fires. Isn't that about what I wrote? Oxygen is a fuel.

Both NIST and FEMA also stated officially that the tower cores were designed to eliminate a chimney effect and would not be feeding the fires with much needed oxygen.

* Kerosene burned off quickly – FEMA and NIST agree
* Fuel = office contents
* Black smoke means cooler, oxygen-poor fire
* Lack of fuel in service cores
* Core designed to prevent acting as a chimney in a fire

Notes: As the FEMA report quoted below explains in detail, almost all of the JP-4 jet fuel (essentially highly refined kerosene) from the two planes was consumed in the first 5-10 minutes after impact, both in the initial fireballs and in fires on the floors near the impact points. This means
that the jet fuel had disappeared as a heat source long before the collapses, and cannot have been an important influence beyond helping to ignite the office contents, which would have had to supply the lion's share of the energy needed to raise the temperature of the core columns.

. . . . . . . . . .

The cores were specifically designed not to allow passage of air in the event of a fire or other disaster, and included automatic fire shutters to close off the elevators. This means that the only air available to a fire in the core would have been from broken windows on the periphery of the buildings. Since the cores could not act as chimneys, the smoke and hot
gasses from such fires would have to travel beck along the ceilings to escape, and would not produce a strong draft to pull fresh air inward toward the core.

www.plaguepuppy.net...

reply to post by SPreston


Greetings SPreston,

That was quite an inferno. I will agree. I am not sure if you were aware of this, but The TVCC Building was built by Arup after they conducted an extensive study of the WTC collapses The Arup construction group took the collapses of the WTC buildings very seriously. They conducted an immediate and thorough study of these collapses and used what they learned to design their high-rise buildings from then on out.

As you will see, these two buildings were drastically different in their design and construction.


Much like the new WTC 7, the TVCC was built with a reinforced concrete and steel structure. Concrete is far more resistant to fire than steel is.
Similarly, the TVCC building used a reinforced concrete and steel structure. Therefore, its different performance from the WTC buildings (all structural steel buildings entirely) is not that remarkable.

This is a great source to an ARUP paper that outlines the construction of the TVCC. I hope you enjoy the read as much as I did.

www.arup.com...




[edit on 17-3-2010 by Six Sigma]

reply to post by Six Sigma


The WTC Towers are the point, and the fires in both towers were in pockets and not raging out of control like in the Beijing hotel. Many people survived the fires in the areas of impact proving they were not raging out of control, and besides the time spans when the fires might be affecting the temperatures of the structural steel all welded and bolted together like a giant heat sink, was extremely limited; 1 hour and 42 minutes for the North Tower, and only 56 minutes for the South Tower.

Insufficient time for office fires to weaken heavy structural steel.

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I will have to disagree with you. Sorry The fires were on many floors as shown in countless photographs and videos. I didn't think that was a sticking point with those involved in the 911 Truth Movement. These fires were plentiful and quite hot. The series of photographs actually shows the floor trusses pulling in the outer columns. I do try to keep an open mind to all possibilities, however. I like to draw my conclusions on the evidence supplied. Sorry, I just don't see or hear any explosions that are consistent with a controlled demolition. I believe the evidence we have seen and heard is quite telling in what happened.

Thank you though, for your incite on this quite controversial topic.

reply to post by Six Sigma


Assuming for the moment that the collapse of WTC1 was fire induced; what force crushed the 93 more heavily built floors below the damaged and burning area in only 11 seconds?

What removed the resistance along the path of greatest resistance, and allowed a collapse at an almost freefall acceleration of 11 seconds?

That tower is collapsing straight down through the path of greatest resistance, crushing each of the 93 floors in sequence and pulverizing the concrete and contents of each floor into fine powder, in only 11 seconds.

How did it do that without explosives removing the resistance?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3c697a9cefa2.jpg[/atsimg]