The Final Minutes of the South Tower - The flaming inferno

reply to post by K J Gunderson


One of the only ones. She was lucky. I think you need to try to comprehend how large the WTC was if you have never been there. I was lucky enough to go on multiple occasions when it opened to just a few years prior to 9/11.

Many people were killed immediately in the area of the attack but those who survived faced being trapped as well. Window to the World workers provided a harrowing account of being trapped, not being able to get to the roof as well as trying to determine if they should break windows to attempt to vent the smoke. Numerous other callers explained the same thing, stepping over dead bodies and finding blocked stairwells.

There are 1000's and 1000's of accounts of those who were there, died or knew someone who died on 9/11. You have to read them ALL and find the truth and not pick and choose those stories that sound interesting which is why you will not find them on a conspiracy site.

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

One of the only ones. She was lucky.

She was also the crux of the conversation. It was all about her specifically. Perhaps you forgot where this all started with Imapepper?

I think you need to try to comprehend how large the WTC was if you have never been there. I was lucky enough to go on multiple occasions when it opened to just a few years prior to 9/11.

You assume a great deal and the use that assumption to make a point? That point? That the WTC buildings were big buildings. Yeah, um thanks for that.

Many people were killed immediately in the area of the attack but those who survived faced being trapped as well. Window to the World workers provided a harrowing account of being trapped, not being able to get to the roof as well as trying to determine if they should break windows to attempt to vent the smoke. Numerous other callers explained the same thing, stepping over dead bodies and finding blocked stairwells.

What does any of that have to do with Edna not bursting into flames while enduring supposed 1000s of degrees of heat?

There are 1000's and 1000's of accounts of those who were there, died or knew someone who died on 9/11. You have to read them ALL and find the truth and not pick and choose those stories that sound interesting which is why you will not find them on a conspiracy site.

What on Earth are you even talking about? The point was that the spot she was standing in was supposed to be so hot that it was warping steel and yet she was not in flames. It really does not matter what happened to anyone else anywhere else in regard to that particular lie. Where Edna was standing was supposed to be so hot that it was bending steel. Where Joe Blow was standing does not really have anything to do with that.

Originally posted by jthomas
I have no disagreement that fuel ignited and flowed down the elevator shafts. But that has nothing to do with where the firemen who were on the 78th and 79th floor and the fact that the major fires were burning above them.

How did the firemen get the the 78th floor without seeing the jet fuel fires that the official story states were there?

Would you agree that ae911thruth.org's statement is false?

I am talking about what the official story states. You know like the 9/11 commission and the main stream media.

[edit on 16-3-2010 by REMISNE]

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by jthomas
I have no disagreement that fuel ignited and flowed down the elevator shafts. But that has nothing to do with where the firemen who were on the 78th and 79th floor and the fact that the major fires were burning above them.

How did the firemen get the the 78th floor without seeing the jet fuel fires that the official story states were there?

Would you agree that ae911thruth.org's statement is false?

I am talking about what the official story states. You know like the 9/11 commission and the main stream media.

[edit on 16-3-2010 by REMISNE]

We're talking specifically about the firemen's accounts in the OP.

Do you agree that ae91truths.org statement is false?

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Actually, this conversation is about the blazing fires. They were not were she was becuase she moved to where there were no fires? What is so odd or conspriacy laced is that? You are in a 100 story building that was struck by a airliner and you are suddenly surrounded by smoke and flames. I think I would have also tried to find a place where the fires were not also.


There is no assumption in what I said about the size of the WTC but it is relevant to the fact that not the entire floor was engulfed where that particular woman was. I told you that you need to visualize how large these buildings were.

Also, there are no flames in the place where Edna is because she moved there. It does make a difference to this thread that there were large pockets of uncontrolled fires. This is verified by firefigheters hitting the floor below impact due to fires and blocked stairwells. She went down with the building. If there are no flames the heat would not be as bad as 2 floors above where for 20 minutes you can see hear waving before the towers collapsed.

It also did matter where Joe Blow was because they died instantly or jumped to their deaths. A little respect for the dead would be nice.

Originally posted by ImAPepper

She didn't survive. She actually jumped to her death.

Re: Edna Cintron

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/983b61bb5ad1.jpg[/atsimg]

But Edna did not jump to her death. She was bravely waving from her perch on the North Tower 94th floor. Nowhere is there any evidence that Edna Cintron was encountering heat or breathing smoke. There is no reason to believe that Edna committed suicide and jumped to her death.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/09cd366befaf.jpg[/atsimg]

Many 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY supporters have called family members of those who died falling from the towers, and taunted them; telling the grieving family their lost one was going to HELL; having committed suicide by jumping. That is wrong wrong wrong. What is the problem with you people?



The towers experienced explosions according to numerous witnesses, before the aircraft impacted the towers, before the towers collapsed, during the tower collapses, and during the periods of 56 minutes and 1 hour and 42 minutes while the towers stood there shaking from the multiple explosions.

Jim Gartenberg

This guy too was trapped on the 86th floor inside the North Tower on the east side facing the river, and 8 floors below Edna Cintron on the north side facing WTC7. But no talk of suicide from him. He spent his time on the phone trying to encourage others, and to get out vital information he had witnessed. His information pointed to explosives in the core sections; reinforcing the evidence that the towers were CD'ed.

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Actually, this conversation is about the blazing fires.

Following it back to the beginning of why jumpers were brought into the discussion. Edna was introduced to point out that she had survived this supposed intense heat. Imapepper tried to say that she did not survive because she jumped to her death. That did nothing to negate the fact that she had indeed survived the impact and the heat, just not landing. Then it evolved into why people would jump instead of burn to death and got to where you apparently picked it up. My apologies if I was paying attention longer than you were but the raging fires bit evolved from that point and still did nothing to negate the fact that she was standing in the middle of steel bending heat and yet not bursting into flames. People jump for all kinds of reasons but the point was that she was where she was and not on fire.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Actually, this conversation is about the blazing fires.

Following it back to the beginning of why jumpers were brought into the discussion. Edna was introduced to point out that she had survived this supposed intense heat. Imapepper tried to say that she did not survive because she jumped to her death. That did nothing to negate the fact that she had indeed survived the impact and the heat, just not landing. Then it evolved into why people would jump instead of burn to death and got to where you apparently picked it up. My apologies if I was paying attention longer than you were but the raging fires bit evolved from that point and still did nothing to negate the fact that she was standing in the middle of steel bending heat and yet not bursting into flames. People jump for all kinds of reasons but the point was that she was where she was and not on fire.

And the 94th floor where Edna Cintron ended up, was two floors below the 96th floor where the nose of the aircraft and the belly tank hit, flooding the 96th floor with burning fuel. And the wing tanks impacting the 97th floor above and the 95th floor below, flooded those floors with burning fuel. Edna is standing right below where the port engine struck and where the port wing tank burst, exploding its thousands of gallons of fuel. Some of that burst wing tank surely entered the 94th floor also.

Yet, Edna Cintron survived all that, apparently without a singe on her clothing, and all her long hair intact, and the steel she had her hands on not too warm to touch.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/09cd366befaf.jpg[/atsimg]

First, I would like to address this...

Many 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY supporters have called family members of those who died falling from the towers, and taunted them; telling the grieving family their lost one was going to HELL; having committed suicide by jumping. That is wrong wrong wrong. What is the problem with you people?

That is blatantly wrong. If there is some right/left wing religious nuts who spew this like the man whose brood shows up at military funerals then fine but do NOT attempt to group all people in one bunch. That is against what we were told we could not do in here anymore. THis is a discussion about the OP.


Now, what about the numerous dead that are found in other areas by other people? This has already been dismissed because it does not fit the fallacy that this one woman should have been on fire. She was extremely lucky to have survived but in the end I am sure she would have wished it was over in a blink like some of her co-workers.

Now, this is a picture of the 'opposite' side of the building, where she did NOT want to go just after the collapse of the south tower.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/18bfdaac9cb8.jpg[/atsimg]

Does that look like no fires to you? This was a photo recently released by NIST who has finally completed their investigation. those are in NO way isolated pockets of fire...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/18bfdaac9cb8.jpg[/atsimg]

Does that look like no fires to you? This was a photo recently released by NIST who has finally completed their investigation. those are in NO way isolated pockets of fire...

absolutely right, those are in NO way isolated pockets of fire... when you compare it to a smaller fire. If you would take the time and compare it to another steel frame high rise structure fire; perhaps one that is bigger like the windsor fire:


then hopefully you could see how they appear isolated, because compared to that structure fire (which did not make the building collapse) those are isolated!

either way your right...

Originally posted by esdad71

Now, this is a picture of the 'opposite' side of the building, where she did NOT want to go just after the collapse of the south tower.

Does that look like no fires to you? This was a photo recently released by NIST who has finally completed their investigation. those are in NO way isolated pockets of fire...

1. Which of these two skyscrapers below were reported to have numerous explosions witnessed by firefighters and many others, before the fires were started, while it burned, and during its collapse?

Answer: ________________________________

2. Which of these two skyscrapers looks to be fuel and oxygen starved because of the pockets of fires and black smoke?

Answer: ________________________________

3. Which of these two skyscrapers has millions of people suspicious and demanding a real investigation?

Answer: ________________________________

4. Which of these two skyscrapers was not still standing after the fires went out?

Answer: ________________________________

5. Which of these two skyscrapers burned for the shortest time and still collapsed?

Answer: ________________________________

6. Which of these two skyscrapers were designed and built by what would supposedly be the most experienced nation, and still collapsed?

Answer: ________________________________

If your answers are all WTC1 North Tower; then we do need a real investigation.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ce416371c1b1.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by SPreston


End of story...
you would think...

reply to post by SPreston


SPreston, tell me is it possible to determine the heat of a fire by the color of the fire? I noticed the WTC fire is orange, and the raging inferno of the other hotel is yellow.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by SPreston

 

SPreston, tell me is it possible to determine the heat of a fire by the color of the fire? I noticed the WTC fire is orange, and the raging inferno of the other hotel is yellow.

Yes, to some extent. But the colors are affected by what is burning also. Coal, wood, magnesium, aluminum, and other flammable material would affect the colors.

Edit to add: it appears the Mandarin Hotel is burning much much hotter with lots more oxygen feeding the flames.

This color temperature chart would be very similar. Natural gas with the proper oxygen mix through a burner, would give a color up in the very hot blue spectrum. Jet fuel burning out in the open gives a yellow-orange-red spectrum. If you have ever welded or cut with oxy-acetylene, you can adust your oxygen-fuel mixture to produce heats from the cool reds to the hotter oranges to the hotter yellows to hotter greens to the very hot blues.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/409470800e8f.jpg[/atsimg]

The sun is defusing the color of the WTC flames and the Chinese hotel is burning at night. However, a sharp difference such as the colors at the Pentagon according to the parking lot security videos can indicate the heat of the flames.

A very high heat high explosive white color

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4efbb934c0be.jpg[/atsimg]

A much cooler red-orange burning kerosene color

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cbfeddb2e9a1.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 3/16/10 by SPreston]

reply to post by SPreston


We are talking about fires in the WTC and nothing else. There is no need to compare to anything especially when you are looking to 2 buildings that are designed, built and structured as opposites. These pictures have no basis in this thread.

Smoke starved fires? Since there was black smoke you are attempting to state that they are like that because of lack of oxygen. Now, I wish to differ. First, it was not oxygen starved. It is 80 stories up and there are huge holes in the side of the building. Also, the 'black smoke' is also very similar to what you would see with plastics, ignitable liquids or rubber burning. If you look at the flames they are 'stories' high meaning at least 15-20 high. The picture I posted shows a fire that is destroying anything it comes in contact with with isolated pockets of no fire that were used for safety until collapse.

reply to post by ExPostFacto


Excellent question. Here's a simple image that will help answer that question:


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cf5cea48890d.jpg[/atsimg]


Reds and oranges are cooler colors. Yellows get hotter, then white, blue is the hottest visible flame. It gets hotter, but that goes into the ultraviolet spectrum that we can't see with our eyes, but we can see on our skin as sunburns.

reply to post by esdad71


Only 7 to 10 floors were burning for 1 hour and 42 minutes in WTC1 out of 110 floors, and there were pockets of fire or else nobody would have survived to come out and wave at the cameras. But it collapsed even though the lower 93 floors should have been strong and undamaged.

The Mandarin Oriental Hotel burned for 5 hours and the entire steel framed building was consumed by fire, and it still stood after the fires were out.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9d96bc373b63.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 3/16/10 by SPreston]

reply to post by SPreston


You are comparing 2 separate construction types. So Different so we cannot compare them. It was actually a very unique and controversial design. It was built using far less steel than a conventional skyscraper just as the WTC was built with almost 'all' steel with a unique design to maximize commercial space without alot of columns throughout the floor. There was also no planes that struck the Mandarin Oriental.


I appreciate the effort but it is apples and oranges.

Originally posted by esdad71


You are comparing 2 separate construction types. So Different so we cannot compare them. It was actually a very unique and controversial design. It was built using far less steel than a conventional skyscraper just as the WTC was built with almost 'all' steel with a unique design to maximize commercial space without alot of columns throughout the floor. There was also no planes that struck the Mandarin Oriental.

How many planes hit WTC7 ?

Please remember , Nist said it was Fires alone , with Phenomena , that

brought down WTC7

reply to post by Sean48


This thread is about the fires in the moments leading up to the collapse. Lets please stay on target. Do you have any questions regarding the fires as I do not think planes hitting the WTC 7 has anything to do with this thread. Agreed?