China DEMANDS!

Originally posted by Perseus Apex
reply to post by yiersan

 

So the multi-trillion dollar and treasonous Fed inspired international 'wealth redistribution' was just one of those thingys that goes along with the territory? Where Reason applies, ignorance dies.

I won't jump thread on this though it does appear to be an 'issue' for the times. Any progress on HR1207 and S604 ? The Cats in 'that' hat so I See. Do you like to play Dominoes? I do, though only with 'strAight' shooters.


[edit on 20-2-2010 by Perseus Apex]

So in other words you mean only play with those who share your views and opinions? talking about denying ignorance, just great ;-)

I want some of that stuff Perseus is on......or is the humour a little too "highbrow" for me......??

2c.....

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


There you go again on ATS, a guy opposing an "universal view propaganda'ed by your beloved politicians in Washington" and that guy must be being paid by the CCP. Awesome forum.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by plumranch

 

The Dalai Lama is not asking for armies or mothers to give up their sons to die for the Tibetans. That is NEVER want he seeks for.

He only wants help from the world, for fellow humans to understand the sad plight of the Tibetans today, robbed and raped by an illegal govt and brutual bullying regime, and to censure them, condemn them, in the hope that they may stop their lies and repression.

We all may be suffering today, but at least we still have our 3 meals and a shelter over our heads, elected representatives attempting to unravel the crisis, but our fellow humans over at Tibet have none of such luxuries today. How many more tibetans murdered before the rest of humanity will act and stop the bullying by the CCP?

I just wonder how you would "know" that those "sad" Tibetans don't have those 3 meals you have in the States? Or is it something you heard from the MSM? Please provide proof and evidence for your claims that those "lovely" Tibetans are starving.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by yiersan]

reply to post by plumranch


Hahhaha, yeah, great view isn't it? After all, each country needs to have a scapegoat and make sure the majority of the population has one (or handful) of nemesis, for the CCP it is easier to chose a cruel Lhama who in the 5000 years Chinese history had been somewhat an enemy of the Han Chinese, which accounts for over 90% of the Chinese population) than a invincible cavenman somewhere in the Middle-East ;-)

Ps. It would be interesting for people to really check the facts of before 1951 and how Tibet was "ruled" by the Dalai Lama (not neccessary the current one, but his predecessors), but heck, the deeds of the "previous" DLs should be considered as the deeds of the current one, after all, he does claim he is the reincarnation of those previous ones ;-)

[edit on 20-2-2010 by yiersan]

Great informative thread Slayer. As has one has come to expect from you. But, I can't help but wonder what's in China's intentions to do militarily. They may need us economically but with the proper application of military might that can be improved more in their favor and I am sure they are aware of this.
In fact their rhetoric leads me to believe they are counting on it and just biding their time.

Ecomonics are all well and good but unfortanately the sword is still king. Especially when your enemy hasn't embraced it as much as you have.

The problem China has is logistics.

How do you leverage your biggest advantage namely population...number of troops against a country that has played video games warping as as society toward the ultimate video gamer apex namely thousands of American UAV`s from various points of launch just yearning to be let loose and under the thumb of the USAF.

Some sitting right over Bejing right now. lol

Then we have large segments of unrest in China. Do not think for a moment that our guys have not been busy in China getting the people used to the idea of American prosperity.
China is a moziac rather then a melting pot. Certain segments of the Chinese population of centuries of resistance against the powers at large on the mainland and we have leveraged that I am certain as well.

The United States of America, Britain and Canada have a long deep history with China. We are not bitter enemies. For the most we have worked together although the Chinese do see a opportunity for a leg up you will not have the largest intact society in history go to war risking their recent prosperity. War costs a lot.

We may have showdowns over Taiwan and Tibet. Mostly Taiwan which Casper Weinberger seemed to be concerned over back in the day.

We will see and this is only a early morning brain soup after reading the thread.

Secretary of Defense

Although not widely experienced in defense matters, Weinberger had a reputation in Washington as an able administrator; his powers as a cost cutter earned him the sobriquet "Cap the Knife." He shared President Reagan's conviction that the Soviet Union posed a serious threat to the United States, and that the defense establishment needed to be modernized and strengthened. Belying his nickname, at the Pentagon Weinberger became a vigorous advocate of Reagan's plan to increase the Department of Defense budget. Readiness, sustainability, and modernization became the watchwords of the defense program. In his early years at the Pentagon, Cap Weinberger was known as "Cap the Ladle" for advocating large increases in defense spending.
Caspar Weinberger inspecting new hardware, Fort Lewis, Washington on April 22, 1983

As Secretary of Defense, Weinberger oversaw a massive rebuilding of US military strength. Major defense programs he championed included the B-1B bomber and the "600-ship Navy". His efforts created economic and military-industrial pressures that were associated with the beginning of Perestroika and the beginning of the end of both the Cold War and the Soviet Union.[citation needed]

While these events were clearly substantial and world-changing, they came at the cost of helping to triple the national debt. Weinberger pushed for dramatic increases in the United States' nuclear weapons arsenal and was a strong advocate of the controversial Strategic Defense Initiative, an initiative which proposed a space and ground-based missile defense shield.[citation needed]

In response to the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing, President Reagan assembled his national security team and planned to target the Sheik Abdullah barracks in Baalbek, Lebanon, which housed Iranian Revolutionary Guards believed to be training Hezbollah fighters. However Weinberger said there would be no change in the US's Lebanon policy and aborted the mission, reportedly because of his concerns that it would harm US relations with other Arab nations.en.wikipedia.org...
note:
Rummy tried to walk in Caspers shoes but they were way to big. lol

Anyhow the scary thing with China is the fact that they are patient. They will infiltrate and hold us at ransom if we are not careful. (unlikely)

My guess is we will have a very long staring contest. If somebody blinks lose a wee bit or gain a wee bit but unlikely that we will have an all out war.







[edit on 20-2-2010 by whiteraven]

reply to post by SLAYER69


Slayer, with all due respect, I think you are a great contributor to ATS, but I've seen you posting these graphs multiple times and it seems you have little economic knowledge.

China does not own the US, but does own a significant share of treasury securities. Yes, Japan does so too, but Japan is not considered hostile towards the US and has no reason to use its ''financial weapon'' against the US. What you fail to see is that speculation is largely related to this whole thing.

China has two reasons for selling its T-bonds:

1. Political motives
   
2. Fear for loss on investment
   

China's share of T-bonds is significant enough to trigger severe panic among speculators, should China decide to use its bonds as a financial weapon against the US (by unexpectedly selling a large share of T-bonds). China has no reason to do so (yet), but it will certainly consider it as a last resort weapon for political purposes. This panic would cause others to sell their US treasury securities as well, which would result in a domino effect and greatly damage stock markets. Eventually, it would make an end to America's position that allows them to borrow money infinitely.

In addition to this, China could fear that the US would lose its capability to pay off its debts. The deficit is ever-growing while no one is willing to buy more treasury bonds and hence, willing to fill the (growing) gap. Sooner or later investors will start considering this investment more risky; the first indications that they do so are here:

US credit rating at risk, Moody's warns

The credit ratings agency cautioned that if the US were to grow at slower pace levels than expected, the largest economy in the world’s already-extended finances could be over-stretched, in turn damaging its AAA credit rating.

Were the US to lose its AAA rating, it could cause further financial damage, by increasing the cost of borrowing money, a necessary evil for a country predicted to have a $1.56 trillion (£980bn) budget deficit this year.

source

If this happens, the risk for investing in US T-bonds is officially considered to be higher, meaning that the US must increase interest rates to continue attracting investors for buying their debts. This would mean that the US would have to pay billions more of interest (alike Greece)

Meanwhile, countries continue to refuse buying more US debts, the gap is growing, interest rates are likely to increase, making the US deficit even higher. There's no doubt on my mind that investors will sooner or later withdraw from US debts.
Note that this has no direct relation to China's coming economic bubbles - they are going to have their own problems, but the American situation will remain the same

Apart from that, the US is not China's biggest export market, it is the EU and China's middle class is growing swiftly to replace the US. This is going to take another decade or two, but the US is slowly losing importance in the longer-term to China.

Regarding these predictions about the biggest future economics, they are flawed and based on current data, not taking into account the significant risks that could and are likely going to greatly damage the US economy.





[edit on 20-2-2010 by Mdv2]

Originally posted by Mdv2
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Slayer, with all due respect, I think you are a great contributor to ATS, but I've seen you posting these graphs multiple times and it seems you have little economic knowledge.

I know that many here have a better grasp of the situation than others. I've never claimed to be an expert.[Although many here have claimed that title] I am however not stupid or ignorant. I have eyes and ears and I have lived a few decades of my adult life watching the internal economic erosion of my country and this to be brutally honest is the direct result of Corporate GREED in their exodus abroad in search of higher corporate earning for their coffers.

GM Logs Record Sales in China

BEIJING -- General Motors Corp. said its sales in China hit a monthly record in April, rising 50% from a year earlier on strength in its Buick and Wuling brands.

The strong performance in China by the U.S. auto maker, until recently the world's biggest by output, contrasts with its struggles in its home market. GM is racing to restructure outside of bankruptcy court in the U.S., and is expected this week to accelerate talks with the United Auto Workers union and move toward closing about 2,600 dealerships.

With regard to my graphs. YES, I'll continue to post them in an attempt to educate the masses on just who really "SO OWNS" the US. Hopefully we can dispel the rumors of our public lands being used as collateral or that they have exclusive rights to our natural resources ETC ETC.

China does not own the US, but does own a significant share of treasury bonds. Yes, Japan does so either, but Japan is not considered hostile and has no reason to use its ''financial weapon'' ever against the US. What you fail to see is that speculation is largely related to this whole thing.

China has two reasons for selling its T-bonds:

1. Political motives
   
2. Fear for loss on investment
   

No offense, but two things always seem to stand out when many here at ATS discuss or debate the present US/China economic and political maneuvering. I always see.

FEAR and SPECULATION

China's share of T-bonds is significant enough that could trigger severe panic among speculators, should China decide to use its bonds as a financial weapon against the US (by unexpectedly selling a large share of T-bonds). China has no reason to do so (yet)

YET.

More "Speculation"?
From everything I've read it will be a long time coming. As many here have acknowledged China does not have the internal markets yet to offset their need for international trade for their own budget so in the meantime they will continue to invest in one of the most significant markets for their products.

but it will certainly consider it as a (last resort) weapon for political purposes. This panic would cause others to sell their T-bonds as well, which would greatly damage stock markets and America's position to borrow money infinitely.

LAST RESORT?

WEAPON?

PANIC?

Is this more of that FEAR and SPECULATION people here at ATS use to gain support for their belief and political views?

In addition to this, China could fear that the US would lose its capability to pay off its debts. The deficit is ever-growing while no one is willing to buy more treasury bonds and hence, fill the (growing) gap. Sooner or later investors will start considering this investment more risky and the first indications that they do so are here:

Well one could argue that if the US were to continue to hemorrhage jobs and business opportunities becuase of Large US Corporations and other Internationals going after higher profit margins due to cheaper labor abroad then yes you are correct.

Didn't Japan just buy some recently?

US credit rating at risk, Moodys warns The credit ratings agency cautioned that if the US were to grow at slower pace levels than expected, the largest economy in the world’s already-extended finances could be over-stretched, in turn damaging its AAA credit rating.

Were the US to lose its AAA rating, it could cause further financial damage, by increasing the cost of borrowing money, a necessary evil for a country predicted to have a $1.56 trillion (£980bn) budget deficit this year.

AND...

In the Meantime lets set all the
FEAR and SPECULATIONS
aside and look at the present reality.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3505e6e0d395.gif[/atsimg]Source

I was recently reading a thread about how most European Union states were faring better than some of the 50 States of the American Union. Hell, California even with it's massive budget issue has a higher rating than many of the B.R.I.C countries

California A-

Brazil BBB-
Russia BBB
India BBB-

If this happens, the risk for investing in US T-bonds is officially considered to be higher, meaning that the US must increase interest rates to make these investors continually willing to buy US debts. This would mean that the US would have to pay billions more of interest.

As always there seems to be a lot of IFs, ANDs & BUTs.... usually followed by many Coulds and maybes

That's just it, they are still willing to buy.

Source

China and others are buying US debt because, despite everything, the US is seen as relatively safe investment in uncertain times. (China also likes US debt because it helps keep Chinese exports cheap.) Countries that are a bit riskier will have that reflected in a sovereign debt rating and will have to offer higher yields. But they will still have buyers at those higher yields -- either private institutions or governments that are still net creditors.

Meanwhile, countries continue to refuse buying more US debts, the gap is growing, interest rates are likely to be increased, making the US deficit even higher. There's no doubt on my mind that investors will sooner or later withdraw from US debts.
this has no relation to China's coming economic bubbles

I noticed how many here try to quickly side step that very real and serious chink in China's armor.

Apart from that, the US is not China's biggest export market, it is the EU and China's middle class is growing swiftly to replace the US. This is going to take another decade or two, but the US is slowly losing importance in the longer-term to China.

I said the US "WAS" their biggest export market. Obviously the part about it now being a "Global Market" may have escaped you. And in the meantime we [Average Joe-sixkpack American] should not be so willing to throw his/her hard earned money away over the next couple of decades or so for cheaply made trinkets.

Regarding these predictions about the biggest future economics, they are flawed and based on current data, not taking into account the significant risks that could and are likely going to greatly damage the US economy.

The US will also grow. Let's stop with all the FEAR and SPECULATIONS! OK so say we grow at an anemic 2 or 3% vs China's sometimes real sometimes fake [Artificial Stimulus Spending] 8%. That's still a 2 or 3% growth in our now 14.1 Trillion [Formerly 14.5 Trillion] GDP vs China's 8% of a 6 Trillion GDP. You do the math.

Well there you go...

Thanks for admitting that many here including myself apparently continue to SPECULATE and PREDICT what MAY happen in the future the fact is that nobody knows the future. If that were the case then there would be nothing but solid investments made in the global stock and trade markets.

NO?

Steely nerves my freind. This is exactly how the US played the game against the Soviets and CHICOM for decades.

It was called a Cold War.


[edit on 20-2-2010 by SLAYER69]

Nobody is foolish enough to challenge America head on yet.

They can give us evil looks but thats about it.

Our worst enemy is staring right back in the mirror.

If China decided on Hari kari (Japanese for loser) we would all quit bellyaching about Obama and Bush and go to kick some butt. lol

The resources of Canada and the US alone not to mention not yet deployed new weapon systems would all be hashed together into a great big sh@#tbomb knocking China back to the glorious days just after the Boxer Rebellion.

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Good thread, but for the US to demand fair trade is extremely hypocritical.

hypocritical?

Hows that?

What would the worlds view/opinion be if the title was "The US Demanded better relations with CHINA?"

You've seem to have missed the thrust of opening post.


[edit on 20-2-2010 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by eldard

Rest of the world = can survive on rice and dried fish

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/12ac2419dd06.jpg[/atsimg]


My Dearest eldard....

As usual it is always good to see your lovely face and cheery disposition.


Personally.

I love Fish and Rice.
I noticed that you left out the Fresh veggies. :shk:

Originally posted by SLAYER69
The US will also grow. Let's stop with all the FEAR and SPECULATIONS! OK so say we grow at an anemic 2 or 3% vs China's sometimes real sometimes fake [Artificial Stimulus Spending] 8%. That's still a 2 or 3% growth in our now 14.1 Trillion [Formerly 14.5 Trillion] GDP vs China's 8% of a 6 Trillion GDP. You do the math.

I agree with much you are saying, but we cannot stop speculation. Speculation is very profitable and those involved in such activities benefit from collapses, be it a company or a country. It's all related to greed, but it cannot be stopped.

However, it is no speculation that the US deficit continue to grows while those countries capable of bearing that burden refuse to increase that burden, meaning that there is a gap being created and that is a fact. If the US does nothing to shrink this huge deficit, it's gonna be very problematic and economic consequences catastrophic.

GDP does not matter, it is about the deficit, which China does not have. We, as average Joes cannot spend more than we receive (well... you Americans could), but we all know how that ended up - in a credit (card) crunch. The same applies to countries, to some to bigger extend than to others, but there's a limit for everyone. For America, this high ''ceiling'' has almost been reached.

Originally posted by whiteraven
Nobody is foolish enough to challenge America head on yet.

They can give us evil looks but thats about it.

Our worst enemy is staring right back in the mirror.

If China decided on Hari kari (Japanese for loser) we would all quit bellyaching about Obama and Bush and go to kick some butt. lol

The resources of Canada and the US alone not to mention not yet deployed new weapon systems would all be hashed together into a great big sh@#tbomb knocking China back to the glorious days just after the Boxer Rebellion.

Delusional!

I am glad you mentioned Japan because they just surpassed China as the lead debt holder. If they are really holding debt. No one "owns" the US.
Despite what people want to think about Washington, the US didn't become a superpower by accident. They know what they are doing.

I don't know about an economic crisis for China. I guess because of Murphy it really can be said about any country. But China also gets a lot of money out of stripping Africa of its resources.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
But China also gets a lot of money out of stripping Africa of its resources.

That sounds serious.

Where exactly is that happening?

Originally posted by Sean48

Originally posted by nixie_nox
But China also gets a lot of money out of stripping Africa of its resources.

That sounds serious.
Where exactly is that happening?

"China's Mixed Role in Africa"

China has become the largest new investor, trader, buyer, and aid donor in a raft of African countries and a major new economic force in sub-Saharan Africa . Chinese trade with Africa is growing at 50 percent a year. Already, that trade has jumped in value from $10 billion in 2000 to $25 billion last year. (US trade with sub-Saharan Africa in 2005 totaled nearly $61 billion.) China is building roads, railways, harbors, petrochemical installations, and military barracks; it is pumping oil, farming, taking trees, supplying laborers, and offering physicians. A number of African nations now depend critically on Chinese cash and initiative.

China is a force for GDP growth in Africa, but it also is a modern colonial colossus intent on stripping Africa of its wealth without leaving sustainable structures behind. A flood of cheap goods, especially textiles and apparel, has already begun to undermine and bankrupt local industry, forcing hundreds of thousands of Africans out of work. The use of imported Chinese rather than local labor to build roads, mines, and factories -- a common phenomenon -- deprives Africans of employment opportunities.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

China is a force for GDP growth in Africa, but it also is a modern colonial colossus intent on stripping Africa of its wealth without leaving sustainable structures behind. A flood of cheap goods, especially textiles and apparel, has already begun to undermine and bankrupt local industry, forcing hundreds of thousands of Africans out of work. The use of imported Chinese rather than local labor to build roads, mines, and factories -- a common phenomenon -- deprives Africans of employment opportunities.

So they are using Chinese labour to do the work, instead of local men.

Hardly a new concept.

They are selling their goods to these countries.

Hardly a new concept.

Are they though , trying to overthrow governments, set policies?

Are they robbing the resources, or buying them?

Are they trying to "free" these countries, by attrition ?

Originally posted by Mdv2
We, as average Joes cannot spend more than we receive (well... you Americans could), but we all know how that ended up - in a credit (card) crunch.

Great point. Lets look at that debt...

There are signs that Americans are getting their personal debt in order. We just have to look. By paying down their debt now they'll be able to purchase later.

From last year-FALL/WINTER-2009
Credit Card Debt Evaporating in U.S.; Down 13 percent in August

Credit card debt is quickly eroding in the U.S., a good sign for the American consumer's personal financial health.

U.S. consumer credit falls again, sending the global economy a message

Also, while paying down consumer debt -- particularly excessive debt -- is a good thing, the very fact of Americans getting their budgets in order will present another hurdle for the U.S. economic recovery.

That's because in addition to cutting debt, the U.S. economy needs at least selected consumers to spend in order to stimulate the economy. But simultaneously saving more while buying at a robust rate is a dilemma. There's scant economic theory to suggest a nation can successfully pull that trick off. If PIMCO Global Strategic Advisor Richard Clarida's analysis is correct, the "new normal" is a U.S. GDP growth rate in the recovery stage of about 2 percent -- far below the 5 percent to 7 percent rate the U.S. typically registers early in a recovery.

Economic Analysis: Without question, Americans remain in belt-tightening mode, something you'd expect during a recession, but this cycle's pronounced slump, with its large job losses and accompanying financial crisis, has taken economizing to levels not seen in decades. While Americans are bringing their debt down to more serviceable levels, they're also concerned about the U.S. economy's health -- a view that, historically, means delayed consumer purchases.

From this Year-2010
Credit card debt still falling

US consumers are still cutting their credit use unprecedentedly. Outstanding credit card debt is about $855bn, down from $980bn in 2008. Analysts see it falling another $80bn this year.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
More "Speculation"?
From everything I've read it will be a long time coming. As many here have acknowledged China does not have the internal markets yet to offset their need for international trade for their own budget so in the meantime they will continue to invest in one of the most significant markets for their products.

but it will certainly consider it as a (last resort) weapon for political purposes. This panic would cause others to sell their T-bonds as well, which would greatly damage stock markets and America's position to borrow money infinitely.

LAST RESORT?

WEAPON?

PANIC?

Is this more of that FEAR and SPECULATION people here at ATS use to gain support for their belief and political views?

Slayer, I was not speculating:

Feb. 9, 2010, 10:52 p.m. EST · Recommend (7) ·
China's military studies Treasury sale as Taiwan 'retaliation'
Senior officers suggest dumping bonds to punish U.S. for arms sales to Taiwan
By MarketWatch (Wall Street Journal Online)
HONG KONG

-- Several high-ranking Chinese military officers want Beijing to sell off U.S. Treasurys as a part of measures to punish Washington for its recent approval of new arms sales to Taiwan, according to a report Wednesday. A U.S. sovereign-bond sale was part of broad retaliation measures under study by military personnel at the National Defense University and Academy of Military Sciences, according to a Reuters report citing interviews with the officers that appeared in the state-run Outlook Weekly.

The Chinese weekly cited comments by three military officers -- two of major general rank and one senior colonel (the Chinese equivalent of a brigadier general) -- with a sell-off of U.S. bonds among an array of retaliation moves,....

Continues here

China weighs move to active management of FX reserves
February 17, 2009

The power of China's huge foreign exchange reserves, which stand at nearly 2 trillion U.S. dollars, might start to be felt more around the world as the country seeks to use those funds "more actively" as the global economic crisis grinds on, experts told Xinhua.

"The government has sent clear signals," said Yin Jianfeng, deputy director of the Institute of Finance and Banking of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, a governmental think tank. He said Beijing was likely to shift its strategy from passive to active reserve management, a change he said was especially urgent and an obvious response to the financial crisis.

LINK

Finance Holdings of US Treasury debt slashed Feb 18

The country sold about $45 billion in US Treasuries in the last five months, Alan Ruskin, chief international strategist for RBS Securities Inc, said in a research note. He said it was a "long enough period to hint strongly at a trend".

Liu Yuhui, an economist with the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS), said now is a good time to cut holdings of US Treasuries as recent European debt concerns have driven up the US dollar. "China has chosen the right strategy in slashing its huge holdings of US government debt as the greenback rebounds," said Liu, adding that there is no sign of change to the long-term weakness of the US dollar.

More Here

[edit on 20-2-2010 by seataka]