Reasons To Believe

Originally posted by Casing
I have a hard time believing in a god that is perfect for the simple fact there has already been a mutiny in heaven where some of his own angels rebelled!? If so perfect why so many angels unhappy if they already had “paradise”. Why would they come to earth to marry the women here instead? Why would god have to have a way to punish angels. If “Paradise” is no pain or heartache, to me that smacks of ignorance – how do you know the difference between pleasure and pain if you don’t have both. Notice I did not say heaven – heaven is for the 12000 from the 12 chosen tribes.
This is in the Bible, the very same you say holds the “truths” of gods messages. If the Bible is the true message of god, that tells me that when he gets tired of us, we will be in the same boat as the angels currently serving him. His message is always “Serve God”. It sounds to me god is trying to replace the servants he already has.
Jude 1:5-6
Genesis 6:2
I am not Christian, nor am I anti-Christian. I cannot believe in something that tries to pass itself off as all powerful / omnipotent, when from the get-go there are issues.

Casing

So let me get this straight. God has angels living in heaven. Some of the angels rebel. God throws them out because Satan wants to be God. And how is that God's fault again? Just remember what the sin was that got Satan kicked out. Pride. He thought he could do it better. Hmmm remind you of anyone?

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by metamagic

 

Stating that one does not believe in Christianity, not complaining about being endlessly harassed by Christians bent on converting you is not Christian bashing. It is simply "I don't agree with you. Leave me alone."

Oh and why would someone respond to a believers thread if they just want to be left alone? You see everyone feels a need to say something about it. Good or Bad.

For clarification: Because responding to your post is discussion, something that I'm sure you are not opposed to inviting, otherwise why create this thread? As for being left alone, re-read my post (it's just sort of right up there above) and you see that my comment about "Leave me alone" is directed to those who continually evangelize me to the point of harassment, demanding I constantly explain myself to them to their satisfaction. Honest discussion is a totally different matter.

What part started to ring false? How could you not find peace with Jesus? That is what he preached. lol. That really makes no sense. Well apparently your years of faithfulness to something you apparently began to not believe in brought you here. You know just as a child doesn't understand why their parents do the things they do, so are we when it comes to God.

Jesus may have preached peace, but I almost never see it in the Christians I know, and I have known many from fundamentalists to Anglicans to Catholics and in fact am related to many of them including some well known Christian leaders. Over all those decades, the only Christians I met who lived this peace were either a few liberation theology based activist Catholic priests, or those who learned the practices of some of the Orthodox monastic orders.

What rang false? Over 30 years the list is long, very long. One of things that did increasingly bother me was the incredible difference between what I was told and what I saw and experienced. I came to understand the feeling Gandhi expressed when he said "I love your Christ, but I don't like Christians, they are so unlike your Christ."

For me, one of the things that changed it all for me was a conversation with a Rastafarian friend who asked me if I believed that the Bible was the word of God and I said yes. He then asked me why I chose to believe what I was told was in the Bible instead of reading it as it is written without interpretation or commentary. I still recall his words "It is only the living god in I and I who can read the truth of word of god, no man can understand it for me." As I protested about the importance of understanding the context of the times, he simply asked "Do you want to know Christianity or do you want to know God?"

I stated reading that afternoon with new eyes.

False answers can get you into trouble.

I agree, and I am still grateful to that Rasta friend for making me understand that I needed to find truth for myself.

lol. That is the plan. Everything, every moment, every pulse of a wave was planned in advance, for the finale outcome of the future. And you said you didn't believe anymore...

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't accept your Christianity, but I believe.. I find the Gospel of Thomas (I know it's considered heretical by many Christians) has a different version of one of Jesus's sayings from the official Gospels, but one I find has been incredibly true...

Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he
finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes
troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

[edit on 17-2-2010 by metamagic]

[edit on 17-2-2010 by metamagic]

reply to post by Mykahel

Oh my..thats rich. My point was not for you or anyone else to be sorry. Furthermore in my experience when someone "leads" a statement with something like "I dont want to offend" it means thats usually what thier first thought or intention is.
Im not a "dancer".
That being said I would like to attempt to answer the OPs origional question.
Why are there so many christian bashing threads out there?

Answer: Because its so EASY!

Is religion not a discipline? Well MOST examples of followers of the christian discipline are poor at best. (in my limited experience)

Thier little guidebook says THOU SHALT NOT KILL. right?
And how many of you "christians" out there are pro-death, I mean pro choice..sorry about that.

Thier manual also says something like: its better for a person to have a mill-stone tied around thier neck etc..than the wrath that they will feel for harming a little one. (personally I really like that one) So that tells me that most christians are sadists, they must like the idea of pain as much as they lie and brainwash thier youth.

Most christians base thier disreguard of old law on the grace provided by the sacrifice at calvary. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. So the christian excuse for not following the commandments is that some guy died on a cross and was whisped away in the clouds and resurrected three days later. Come on! Proove this miracle even happened. You simply cannot.
The christian faith is just another way to keep the bewildered herds bewildered, and rake in the cash.
Trust me I could go on and on.

The pain I have felt in my life has not been because of sad events. Its been because of the lies I was fed before realizing the simple truth. Life is death and death is life. Embrace it and enjoy it while your able, because fact is no-one really knows anything beyond that.

The entire intelectual and scholarly persuit of the study and interperatation of scripture is nothing more than a way for people to get around something that they dont agree with in thier own faith. Its kind of like a bunch of tax evaders looking for loopholes.

Doesnt your book also say "be either hot or cold, because if you are a luke warm, walking vomit bag I will spew you from my mouth"
Show me a "Hot" christian and I will show you someone banned from the church.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by psyko45]

reply to post by Mykahel


Now you are a very nice person. I enjoy talking to people like you because you are a source of information that I look for. I do not mind someone who expresses themselves in a manner befit to debate and question. I believe that is a good thing. It is the other stuff that I do not like. There are many times that I say things in an un-Christ like manner. I am not proud of those moments, but for some reason the Lord will not bridle my tongue and allows me to continue. I have yet to find the peaceful path, I guess. But I will never stop looking. Thank you for your words. God Bless.

Originally posted by maximumpower
I don't even know where to begin on pointing out flaws in Christianity. I could go on for days and days about how pretentious "you people" are. I respect the fact that you want to use the bible and the teachings of Jesus to guide you to be a better person, and that your belief in God is a huge part of a Christian's life. I would never ask you to stop believing in God- just stop telling me that every fact that science has produced over the past 500 is bull# because a single book 1,000 years older than that says so. That just doesn't fly with me. To me, sir/ma'am, it is you the Christian who has "stopped looking", not the Athiest that chooses to look further for the truth than just a moldy old book. Science has pretty much fulfilled the space for religion, which was the ancient people's use for explaining misunderstood phenomena.

I seriously don't mind if people are Christians, because I feel that Christianity and other religions can guide people to be good people. But just be content with what you believe and don't force it on other people because a belief is a personal opinion in which you get to choose for yourself.

Pretentious.....Okay. The title of this thread is reasons to believe. Right? Why on earth would you visit a thread of your own free will and then claim that it is being forced upon you? You did not even have to reply. You could have just left. No one is forcing you to do anything.

Think about. Religion has been taken out of public schools. Now look how the school system is doing. The problem is not that religion is being forced upon you, its that it is being taken away from you.

Who has claimed science has been wrong? See you think that science discovers all these things. lol. Now that is pretentious. Those things have always been there. There is nothing new under the sun. Solomon was a wise man indeed.

reply to post by ImaNutter


To your question: Who was inspired by God? The original writers, the men at the Council of Nicaea, or the bishops/whoever it was that King James hired? Was it all three?

I personally would say that it was only the original authors that were inspired by God. Those who canonized the Bible and translated it at later dates may have been exercising gifts given them by Go, but I do not necessarily believe that they were inspired as well. Convenient? Yea, I suppose it is, as it lets me say that all the errors in translation are just our fault while maintaining the pure message of the originals. The great thing is, though, that even with many of these translations having errors, they all still bring forth one key truth and that is the salvation that comes through Christ. I believe that a Christian can live life faithfully knowing that God loves him and his life mission is to love God and love his neighbor.

I question the King James in general because of the legalistic dogmatism that it has created among Christians that Christ died to destroy. It is not the sole antagonist but it played a key role.

I have a hard time trusting any version of the Bible that I am able to read. Until I can read Greek and Hebrew, how will I know that the translation I read is accurate to the original text. I often question what I read from any translation against what I know to be true about God.

I know that God is Good. If He is not, I want nothing to do with Him.

reply to post by Nichiren


He said everything was good that He had just created. If the devil had fallen from Heaven between creation and the temptation, then at the point of God's declaring "it was good" there is no problem.

Depending on how long it took for Adam and Eve to fall, overpopulation would not have been an issue at all. As far as bacteria are concerned, I guess it depends on what you consider to be truly living in the first place. The plants would "die" upon being eaten would they not? I do not think these matters cause any real issue. My opinion here.

He did place the curse which in effect killed Adam and Eve. He said they would die if they ate from it. They ate and eventually they died. I don't see an issue.

Interesting Indian Legend, and it is full of truth. The problem I see is that it only really applies if you are claiming to be blind. If that is the case then there is still hope to come to the truth. I, however, claim that I can see. If I walked up to an elephant and saw 6 men groping it trying to figure out what it was really like, would I not sit down with them and explain to them what it is they simply cannot see? If I am wrong I have brought greater judgment on myself for claiming to see and leading others astray. I do not fear this however because I believe with all my heart that while I am not always right, God is Good and will be just.

reply to post by maximumpower


If you do not have a problem with people being Christians, then why do you want them to stop getting people to become Christians. hmmm. There is something not right there. Does anyone else sense this?

[edit on 17-2-2010 by Conclusion]

reply to post by Conclusion


My point is exactly that - heaven or paradise is not as perfect as everyone seems to think. And no, Lucifer did not want to be god or have his "throne" above god (that was in Isaiah and was an accusation from somebody - not an accusation from god). Lucifer was cast down because he did not want to be put second to man, he felt that he and the other angels were there first, therefore should have more of his favor. This tells me there were already contention in heaven, a place where from all counts should be perfect!

If god is infinite, and made everything, then by that argument he made the angels, and then for whatever reason, made man, and obviously failed in perfection in both endevoours - otherwise no rebellion, no "original sin" (which I feel is a misnomer). What happens when god decides he is bored again?

The OP asked why it is some do not believe. This is one of many reasons, and for me the main one.

Casing

Originally posted by Nichiren
reply to post by Mykahel

 

Are you talking about the same guy who is omniscient, but puts his children in a snake infested garden? Tells them not to eat from a certain tree, by punishment of death, but knowing fully well that the two will eat the fruit. He then blames the kids and a talking snake for the incident? Since he doesn't kill them he's also, let's say "intellectually dishonest".

Is this the perfection you allude to?

Okay if you going to ask the question get the facts straight.

One snake does not mean infestation. By that one flaw you have shown that you know nothing about which you speak.

You have just been kicked from the garden. I thought you would have learned your lesson by now.

reply to post by Conclusion

Get thee behind me.

Fine by me- easier to put my foot up your keester, asshat.

reply to post by ImaNutter

Could it not be that we did look, we did examine, we were raised on a Christian faith, we took classes on the Bible... and as we developed the mental capacity to do so, we formed our own opinion without accepting whole heartedly everything the good preacher told us when we were 8?

None the less, you stopped.

What it boils down to is that everything a Christian "knows", everything a Christian "learned" about the Bible... the entirety of their foundation for their Christian belief... ORIGINATED from the mouth of a man, who read the translated words of another man, who edited the original words of another man, of the books that man allowed to be in the Bible... and it's only later in their lives do they try and connect what is happening in their lives and around them to what the preacher man told you life was all about.

lol. Now that is true comedic gold my friend. By what you just said....everything that has existed came first from the mouth of a man. I guess we should dismiss everything by your reasoning.

SURVEY SAYS!! oh thats what the buzzer sounds like.

Originally posted by Nichiren

Originally posted by Conclusion

First off I would like to state that I do understand why you do not believe.

You stopped looking.

You may as well be blind to what you are searching for.

If you want to know the answer learn a little science.

And the clock is ticking.

This thread will be no use to you.

I will tell you that there is not one good person. Not one.

Only one part of reality Pedro.

When you read something at least try to understand it.

I see through you.

Therefore your understanding of the events are flawed.

Here is a little bit of information you might not know.

You have to stop blaming God for your own bad decisions and work toward improving whatever you need to improve.

It's loving folks like you that give the man a bad rep.

And you said that?

Oh I forgot only you are allowed to be sarcastic. lol.

Here is you.

Are you talking about the same guy who is omniscient, but puts his children in a snake infested garden? Tells them not to eat from a certain tree, by punishment of death, but knowing fully well that the two will eat the fruit. He then blames the kids and a talking snake for the incident? Since he doesn't kill them he's also, let's say "intellectually dishonest". Is this the perfection you allude to?

Did you forget the saying, Treat others how you want to be treated, Well I just thought that is how you wanted to be treated. lol. Your to much. If you don't like sarcasm, cynicism, or any of the other big, bad words, then you yourself should not partake in the irony of statements such as yours.

Nothing but love my friend.

reply to post by ATC_GOD


I agree with the others here, great avatar there! :-)

1 Peter 2:21-25 illustrates fairly well what happened and even refers to one of my favorite parts of scripture for-telling exactly what the messiah would do. Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 is a great picture of the Christ. Jews actually came to believe there would be two messiahs as a result of this scripture along with others. One would be political and save them physically. The other would be spiritual and save their souls. Not sure what the current understanding for them is though.

Also check out:

Matthew 20:26-28
26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Hebrews 2:9, 14-18
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


A person does not have to feel that their actions are an affront to God in order to feel guilt. Part of that moral code written on our hearts telling us that there is a right and a wrong and that there is an absolute that determines what those things are. A Christian can still feel tremendous amounts of guilt, hopefully they have a better understanding of how to cope with and set aside those feelings though. I suppose you could argue that the church manipulates guilt, but it by no means was the original creator of it. I would argue that you were wrong if that is the case however.

reply to post by Dragonelle


Being a leader in a small church myself, here I thought it was all about bringing freedom. I can't recall some head elitist pig running my life. If there is one I'd like to meet him so I can give him what for. Our church doesn't get instructions or anything from any other body or person above us. We are autonomous in that respect as many churches are. You think it's all about control because there are boundaries. Everything needs boundaries and rules in order to function. The only real rule we have is to love God and love each other. I don't see how that is too restricting at all really. In fact, I think it is quite liberating and beneficial to all parties involved.

Originally posted by wylekat
reply to post by Conclusion

 

Get thee behind me.

Fine by me- easier to put my foot up your keester, asshat.

Oooooh. I had been waiting on the personal attack to invoke anger.

Ding, ding, ding, ding.....WE HAVE A WEINER!

Name calling:
It is more of an art than most people give it credit. It can be a shared harmless system that can bond friendship.
Asshat is one that I have never heard. lol. That is funny. I give you mad props. You totally rearranged my way of thinking by that remark. It has instilled a fear in me that I will not soon forget...AND has definitely put me in my place.

If you cannot tell by now, I prefer sarcasm.

reply to post by psyko45


The pain runs deep within you. It is very, very ugly. You say for only yourself that nobody knows what is beyond. Since Christians say they know you hold a seething hatred for them. It is easily seen. All I can say is go do what you must do. Guilt is what will bring man to his knees. The earth itself is a witness. Sow your seed as it seems you must and it will not grow. You have testified against yourself. Brazen and bold in the face of servants. Though your hate pains me, it hated Jesus first.

Originally posted by Casing
reply to post by Conclusion

 

My point is exactly that - heaven or paradise is not as perfect as everyone seems to think. And no, Lucifer did not want to be god or have his "throne" above god (that was in Isaiah and was an accusation from somebody - not an accusation from god). Lucifer was cast down because he did not want to be put second to man, he felt that he and the other angels were there first, therefore should have more of his favor. This tells me there were already contention in heaven, a place where from all counts should be perfect!

If god is infinite, and made everything, then by that argument he made the angels, and then for whatever reason, made man, and obviously failed in perfection in both endevoours - otherwise no rebellion, no "original sin" (which I feel is a misnomer). What happens when god decides he is bored again?

The OP asked why it is some do not believe. This is one of many reasons, and for me the main one.

Casing

Hmmm. I kind of understand what you are saying. Trouble can show up. Right?

reply to post by Conclusion

What is this quote from? If indeed it is not a quote from an outside source then I am honoured that you would take the time to so eloquently state a falsehood.
I "hate" no one. Actually its quite the opposite. If you read what I wrote youll see what means the most to me.

If there is such a thing as hate the only thing that would fall into that category for me would be "the lie" that has created this global cult of christianity.

Jim Jones
David Koresh
The rayleans

All just different faces of the message you preach.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by psyko45]

reply to post by psyko45


The reason I began with "I do not wish to offend" is because many people are apt to be offended easily and I saw what I had posted as potentially being taken that way.

There are too many Christians who don't exercise what they claim. Jesus warned that they will have no part in the coming kingdom because while they claim to know Him, He does not know them. This is sad, but true.

There are Christians that are pro-choice, which I believe is wrong. I do not see how the two can be together. I'm not the one to judge their salvation, but I would have no issue saying they are at the least very confused.

I am pro-death in the sense that I do support capital punishment. How does that compute? Jesus himself said that the judge carries the sword for a reason. The governing authorities, when doing what is good, will punish what is wrong. They have the authority to make those decisions. Also, the command was not to murder, sometimes mistranslated, which is very different from killing. Our legal system even recognizes the difference between self-defense, capital punishment and outright murder, even to the point of having manslaughter (which is also mentioned in the Bible and not held on the same ground as murder).

Yes, Jesus did abolish the authority the Old Law had over us because it can no longer condemn us. He gave us a new law (which in fact was the basis of all the law in the Old Testament and was not a new law at all, just the very foundation of it all that had been lost in the details) that if followed leads to a perfect life and society. Love God and love your neighbor.

I can show you plenty of "Hot" Christians. They are the ones that have given up everything they had to go serve as missionaries in other countries and even suffering to the point of death for it.

If you think most ministers are in it for the money, you are mistaken. I'm not going to complain about what I make but it sure ain't the high life (by American standards anyway). I am content though. I acknowledge that some have used and abused the scriptures for their own benefit, but the Bible says they have already received their reward in full. They had better enjoy what they have now.

Life is not death, nor is death life. I am sorry for you more now than before. I could not live with the worldview that you now see through. Perhaps that makes me weak. I cannot accept it.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

False Dilemma Fallacy

A False Dilemma is a fallacy in which a person uses the following pattern of "reasoning":


Either claim X is true or claim Y is true (when X and Y could both be false).
Claim Y is false.
Therefore claim X is true.
This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because if both claims could be false, then it cannot be inferred that one is true because the other is false. That this is the case is made clear by the following example:


Either 1+1=4 or 1+1=12.
It is not the case that 1+1=4.
Therefore 1+1=12.
In cases in which the two options are, in fact, the only two options, this line of reasoning is not fallacious.

EDIT: I'm not sure how I messed it up, but the following is my own words and not those of Watcher-in-the-Shadows

We do not argue this way. Ours would better be argued:

1+x=1

"x" represents all potential religions.
There is only one correct answer to fill in for "x". You can put anything you want there, btu only one number will work.

Not really sure which side you were arguing to begin with to be honset, just thought I would throw in my 2 cents. Take them or leave them. I'd take them personally, considering the economy and all. Maybe I shouldn't leave them in the first place now that I think about it... :puz

[edit on 17-2-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by maximumpower

I don't even know where to begin on pointing out flaws in Christianity. I could go on for days and days about how pretentious "you people" are. I respect the fact that you want to use the bible and the teachings of Jesus to guide you to be a better person, and that your belief in God is a huge part of a Christian's life. I would never ask you to stop believing in God- just stop telling

I will admit this is true, but you could just as easily used the word man
in lew of Christianity.



[edit on 17-2-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by psyko45


Well then to you that would be Jesus.


I am at peace with your decision. I am at peace with my decision. I am at peace.