Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

reply to post by hotbakedtater


No it isn't.

It's called losing a good opportunity to be quiet


[edit on 17/2/10 by Tifozi]

Rape is a crime agains humanity and should be punished by death.

There are simple boundrys between crimes against humanity and money related crimes,there are only TWO TYPES OF CRIMES.

We have created legal systems negotiated by the money indirectly involved in the legal process and these systems have been bastardised and manipulated to the point where the people or humanity are no longer protected by the laws.

Crimes against humanity are simply punishable by an eye for an eye,the death penalty being the most useful.

There is no reason for second chances,this is the problem today,the insane protection of undesirable humans .

I and I believe most people dont want murders and rapists ever repeating their crimes,death is reasonable and a responsible humanitarian society would quickly execute anyone who commits crimes against people,women ,childre,any human being.


This is the starting point we need to have,if we dont value human life enough to deprive criminals of theirs THEN WHY DO WE TRY SO HARD TO PROTECT PEOPLES LIVES IN THE FIRST PLACE??


These oxygen thieves are only imprisoned so religous fanatics can have a reason to exist.

You cross the boundries of humanitarian rights and you are gone,dead,simple,and progressive in nature,not regressive,you cant rehabilitate criminals,you can only give them new chances to offend ,the past is over,you cant change it or the criminal,only the future remains and the criminal has no right to a future ,death plain and simple.

reply to post by hotbakedtater

Again, it is a debate technique. I am using the logic put forth by certain posters (of which you are not, according to you) and mirroring it back as sarcasm, to highlight my disagreement with it.

If I follow the logic in some posts, a woman who dresses like a so called slut should bear responsibility for her rape. That is assigning blame to the victim, and I disagree with it.

You have not demonstrated any logic at all throughout this discussion. You have accused me and others of using strawmen...when you clearly do not know the definition of a strawman. I invited you to show me exactly how any of my arguments were strawmen and you conveniently ignored the question.

On the other hand...I have pointed out many strawmen arguments that you have been using. And since you refuse to refute that claim...we can only assume you are acknowledging that you in fact are guilty.


And btw...sarcasm is not a "debate technique"...it is an "escape tactic" for when you are beat and have nothing else to say.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

and clothes do not contribute to rape

And you are naive to think so...nothing we can do to help you with that.

let's pretend for a second this was an established fact

what if every single woman in public dressed 'decently', would potential rapists start molesting rabbits, goats, etc. or would they just do nothing? i'm kind of curious how you believe this 'priming' of a rapist is supposed to work, does it require a stimulus by the intended victim only or could the 'primed' perp transfer his fixation to another, random, woman? iow, would a TV show suffice? or porn? would a repeat offender even need to be 'primed' at all??

considering all these open questions it seems hard to construe a causal relationship between rape and dress code.

reply to post by Long Lance

considering all these open questions it seems hard to construe a causal relationship between rape and dress code.

No one is trying to show a relationship between ALL rapes and dress code. We have continued to say over and over that in SOME CASES clothing MAY BE A FACTOR.


But there are some on here, including you, that seem to think that clothes NEVER have a role in the reasoning behind the rape. And that is naive.


And you continue, along with the others, to set up these strawman arguments. You want to misrepresent our position in order to make it easy to refute....that is the text book definition of a strawman fallacy.

When I was in grad school one of my professors pounded a phrase over and over into our heads.

"Correlation does not imply causality."

In other words, just because you can correlate two things does NOT necessarily mean that one causes the other.

You can correlate certain rapes and the clothing worn by the woman.

Doesn't mean that the clothing CAUSED the rape.

Originally posted by smyleegrl
When I was in grad school one of my professors pounded a phrase over and over into our heads.

"Correlation does not imply causality."

In other words, just because you can correlate two things does NOT necessarily mean that one causes the other.

You can correlate certain rapes and the clothing worn by the woman.

Doesn't mean that the clothing CAUSED the rape.

This is true. But when you have convicted rapist saying that all or part of the reason that he picked his particular target was because how she dressed...then it is kind of hard to refute that in some cases...clothes play a role in making the female a target.


People can deny it all they want, they can say it is wrong all they want (which I agree with), but they can't change reality. And the reality is that in some cases clothes have played a part in the rapist picking out his victim.

No one here is saying that the clothes gives the rapist an excuse, no one is saying that wearing certain clothes means you want to be raped. But if we KNOW that certain clothes have in the past been part of the reasoning behind WHY the rapist targeted his victim...then there is no reason to not be RESPONSIBLE for what you wear.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

This is true. But when you have convicted rapist saying that all or part of the reason that he picked his particular target was because how she dressed...then it is kind of hard to refute that in some cases...clothes play a role in making the female a target.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Agreed. 100%.

Bottom line.....be careful, be vigilant, and be safe.

Or just walk around with Chuck Norris. All the time.

reply to post by smyleegrl


Or walk around LIKE Chuck Norris.

I'm a big fan of women learning self defense. And you don't have to be able to beat a guy up...most of the time you only need enough time to run away.

Originally posted by Tifozi
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

No it isn't.

It's called losing a good opportunity to be quiet


[edit on 17/2/10 by Tifozi]

What?

Are you saying I should shut up because you don't like what I am saying?

I dont like what a LOT of people have to say on this thread, but you do not hear me telling them to shut up.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Thank you for proving my point regarding your tendency to add words and meanings that are not there.



What I did say was that you lost an opportunity to not make a fool out of yourself.


Saying that, even with "sarcasm" is just beyond reason.


Or maybe we should all say terrible things and then justify them with "oh, it was sarcasm".

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Are you going to continue to ignore your logical fallacies that I have pointed out?

If you are...that is fine...I'd just like to know if you have conceded that you are being illogical.

Originally posted by smyleegrl
When I was in grad school one of my professors pounded a phrase over and over into our heads.

"Correlation does not imply causality."

In other words, just because you can correlate two things does NOT necessarily mean that one causes the other.

You can correlate certain rapes and the clothing worn by the woman.

Doesn't mean that the clothing CAUSED the rape.

Thank you so much for posting this. If everyone understood this concept, all the silly squabbling going on in this thread would cease to exist. Nobody should be demonized for their opinions, and/or how they present them.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher


No one is trying to show a relationship between ALL rapes and dress code. We have continued to say over and over that in SOME CASES clothing MAY BE A FACTOR.


But there are some on here, including you, that seem to think that clothes NEVER have a role in the reasoning behind the rape. And that is naive.

strange how these particular cases (how many again?? i'm all ears...) seem to require so much attention in terms of post count, only second to drinking. i can't prove a negative, therefore i don't know if there are any rapists who only go after women who show a certain percentage of skin or something, i just say that i have yet to see a good argument why it should factor so much into the debate, let alone play a crucial role, like one would expect after so many posts focusing on it.


after all these repeats, how would you know that clothing is so important? because some deranged muslim cleric said so? don't talk about common sense, at which point of a rapist's decision making process would it come into play? at the start, in between, does he choose a particular woman in the beginning or is he just looking for an opportunity? what about cases where the woman knew the perp beforehand? what about ambushes, etc...

you see if you take a closer look you can rule out a whole lot of scenarios, which, by coincidence account for the majority of cases (rape by acquaintance). it was mentioned in a link that most rapes occur between 12 and 24 years of age, which indicates the perps choose weak and/or inexperienced targets (victims) rather than women wearing a flashy outfit. they are likely going the path of least resistance.

[edit on 2010.2.18 by Long Lance]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by riley

 

Apparently a large percentage of sex workers have been sexually abused sometime in their life before becoming sex works so perhaps.

So again...you don't place any responsibility on the women for making the choice to be a pron star...do you hold women responsible for any choice they make??

Are you serious? It was YOU who asked if porn stars are victims of sexual violence as well and I answered that perhaps they are:

Originally posted by OutKast SearcherBut still...are you going to place any RESPONSIBILITY on the women who decide to be porn stars? Or are they victims too?

I NEVER said that a porn star is not responsible for their choice in career. Just because a woman becomes a sex worker does not mean sexual violence committed against her becomes NA. She is still a human being with a right to NOT be assaulted.
If you do not want me to answer a question.. don't ask it but DO NOT keep trying to decieve other readers over what i have actually said. That is the third time you've tried that on now and everytime you do you kill your own credibility.

Of course they do. You say men are biologically set up to fixate on sex because of testosterone yet women have no biologial need to express themselves sexually? Did you know women actually have orgasms too? Maybe you didn't.

And again...instead of staying on topic...you decide to attempt an insult instead. It is a proven scientific fact that testosterone causes sex drive in men, hence making them think about sex all the time. Which biological scientific fact is there that causes women to want to dress sexy?

YOU said:

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I didn't know women had a biological need to express their sexuality.

YOU said you did not know women had that need.. either you have a very sexist view of the world where you think women only half built compared to men or they have comparable biological sexualities. I actually stayed on topic and answered your question.. and you complain about me insulting? Have you not insulted people then? Maybe if you did not continually try trip me up by misquoting me my responses would be more cordial.

If it is not just about the prize of male attention...then what is it? Do you dress the same when you are going over to a friends house where there will be no men as you would when you are going to a club where you know there will be men?

I went to see a live band at a gay bar once.. I am not gay but I still dressed up. There were men there but I was not trying to turn them. You ask if I dress up to go to a friends place? If it was an occasion I might.. and if I just FELT like it I might.

And you freely admit that part of the reason is to attract men...and you know what...that is the only thing men are concerned about. They could care less if you are "expressing" yourself...all they know is that you are dressed to show what you have and they take that as you are dressing to show THEM what you got. You can have all the reasons in the world for how you dress...but you can't force others to respect those reasons.

Incorrect. You do not speak for all men and SOME men have the ability to actually appreciate non sexual aesthetics of self expression. Men can even like the colour a woman is wearing regardless of whether or not he can see her cleavage. Normal men are quite capable of seeing an entire human being with complexities not just something they might try shag.

You are complaining about being misquoted when you blatently lied about what I said? You have made it very clear you think what a woman wears contributes to her own rape.

So are you admitting you mis-quoted me? Because I am sensing it is really hard for you to admit when you are wrong...which is why we are having this long discussion where you keep insulting me, mis-quoting me, taking my words out of context, setting up strawmen, and misrepresenting my views.

You have not proven me to be wrong so there is indeed nothing to "admit" and you actually MISQUOTED ME YET AGAIN in this same post you're winging about being accused of it. :shk:

Ever hear of cause and effect? Supply and demand? So...you are claiming as FACT that men are the way they are because of magazines and TV...right? So...how about those ancient Romans that are very notorious for their sexual fixations? Did you ever think that MAYBE...just maybe...that there are these magazines and TV ads because men are ALREADY fixated on sex and so they know this will get their attention??? I know you are trying hard to say that men are just stupid and have been taught to be sexual...and that it is very hard for you for some odd reason to admit that men are naturally this way without any outside forces contributing to it???

I have never once said men are stupid.. in fact I have been argueing that men are NOT cavemen incapable of self control. In regard to media culture.. eating disorders are through the roof and that proves it effects all people.. not just men. I do not think women are stupid either but young minds male and female alike are influenced negatively by mass media.

You keep bringing up burkas and islam culture and rape still being common there...right? Well be the same argument...they don't have the kind of sexual ads we see in the western world...and yet they are still fixated on sex. This whole "men are only fixated on sex because of western media" is a short sighted argument...open your blinders a little...look back more than 20 years in the past and look past the borders of your own country.

Well actually when I mentioned islamic culture I provided examples of rape in a western country perpetrated by muslim men who were ENCOURAGED to rape aussie women by their cleric. They were trying to impose extremist moral codes/laws on western women and justified raping them as being a result of women not dressing properly. Are you trying to argue that their victims were partially responsible because the cleric uses the same "uncovered flesh" argument you do?

You have been implying all through our this thread that what a woman wears might prompt a man to go rape her. I do not believe men are naturally rapists. If they ARE the perhaps porn should be banned rather than expecting women to cover up any flesh that might tip them over the edge..

No...you have been saying that is what I have been implying. I have lost count how many times I have said this...so I'll put it in all caps for you this time. What I am saying is: RAPIST ARE OUT THERE AND WEARING CERTAIN CLOTHES MAY DRAW THE ATTENTION OF THAT RAPIST.

Rapists may actively seek out women who wear certain clothes so they can rape someone. "Drawing attention" implies that a man is minding his own business and a woman in a sexy dress walks past and suddenly needs to rape her. A sexual predator is called a predator for a reason. They are hunting and if they cannot find someone who is wearing a shirt dress or showing cleavage they might decide wearing lipstick is provocative.

It would really be nice if you could post some dress guidelines for women to avoid getting raped.. maybe you could also post statistical rape facts that support your assertions that what women wear tempts rapists. What about nail polish? Does that make me more of a target? :shk: Why are you SO OBSESSSED with what a woman wears when she is raped? Most rapes do not occur as a result of what women wear.

You do know what misandry is right? It is the opposite of misogony...and it is just as ugly. You have done way more men bashing all by yourself then any men here have done women bashing. It is just as ugly...and in your case it is hypocritical.

You have said that women make themselves targets for sexual assault and you pretend you don't have a thing against women? Glass houses dear.

Again...it really doesn't matter what the females reasons are...you can't control what other people think.

And you cannot control what people wear but you are trying by trying to scare them into thinking most rape is caused by it when it isn't wear the true dangers of rape lie.

Here is an idea though...if you know that wearing a short dress has a negative connotation...then when you wear it you need to be an adult and acknowledge that people will think of you in a certain way, they will make assumptions about you whether they are true or not. Some white guy might just really like how a white robe and hood looks...but he would be stupid to wear it and then be shocked if people made assumptions about him.

Comparing short skirts to the KKK outfit? So rape victims have a sterotypical uniform now? You really need to go look at some rape sites and see what typical victims are. Most get raped by someone they know.

Personally I do not think short skirts say "sexy woman" more than other outfits. A woman does not have to show flesh to be a sexually attractive so telling women they short skirts will make them rape targets when a rapist might be exclusively looking for blondes. Should women stop bleaching their hair as well just in case they might come across a rapist with a taste for blonde women?

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

Correlation does not imply causality.

*The professor has made a fabulous point*

I've been with this thread since the beginning. It has been enlightening and for the most part, handled with good intentions and honesty. I am however, disappointed that this topic has devolved into a conversation based on the clothing choices and modesty of women. The last pages of this thread have been argued to death and have in the process, buried the bigger picture and that is - a person's responsibility (to themselves) to actively do what they can, to be safe.

When that concept is buried in details, the message is lost.

Is clothing a contributing factor? Perhaps.
I would argue that it is the drawing of attention of a predator to oneself, that is the bigger picture.

Taking the conversations out of the clubs and the dark alleys, consider this...

If I am wearing color at a time when most are wearing black, do I draw attention? If I am jogging in shorts and a tank top instead of sweats and a t-shirt, do I draw attention? If I am taller, or shorter, louder, or quieter than most, do I draw attention? If I have blonde hair or red hair, instead of brown hair, do I draw attention? If I have long hair and choose to wear it down, instead of up, do I draw attention? What if my jeans are tight instead of baggy? If I am wearing a dress at a time when most are wearing jeans, do I draw attention?

These are rhetorical questions (I know the answers already) but the point? The point is that clothing choices and modesty and what draws the attention of someone else to you, is in the eye of the beholder.

Do I absolve women (or anyone) from the responsibility of watching out for themselves? No. Do I believe that everyone should be aware of where they are, who they are with and what they are doing? Yes. Do I believe that anyone, at anytime, can draw the attention of a predator? Yes. Do I place blame on a victim of a rape crime? No.

With that, I'm bowing out of this discussion.
Be well.





ed: weird grammar mistake

[edit on 17-2-2010 by LadySkadi]

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


This "what women wear to incite rape" subject has been hashed out enough.. we keep going over the same ground and are not making progress. I mean you even acused me now of having a problem with being wrong like I am argueing the point for prides sake? So that must mean you do as well just because we do not agree? I have NOT tried to invalidate your opinion by accusing you of having a problem with being wrong.. I just accept we are at an impasse and I genuinely think you believe what you are saying is true

..but I believe what I say is true. Maybe you should respect other people's opinions as actually being their opinions instead of assuming they are just trying to be right for the sake of it.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

This "what women wear to incite rape" subject has been hashed out enough.. we keep going over the same ground and are not making progress. I mean you even acused me now of having a problem with being wrong like I am argueing the point for prides sake? So that must mean you do as well just because we do not agree? I have NOT tried to invalidate your opinion by accusing you of having a problem with being wrong.. I just accept we are at an impasse and I genuinely think you believe what you are saying is true

..but I believe what I say is true. Maybe you should respect other people's opinions as actually being their opinions instread of assuming they are just trying to be right for the sake of it.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

You are right...but I think you need to go back through the thread and see who was on the attack and who was on the defense.


My position, and others, has been consistent throughout the thread. We have to keep shifting directions though because we have to respond to attacks from you and others.


You keep saying I mis-quoted you...I never "QUOTED" you as saying anything. You have "QUOTED" me often...and mis-quoted me...yet you still won't say you did. You quoted me as saying "women dressing like whores". You know I never said that....I know it...everyone knows it...but you won't admit it. Show me where I ever "QUOTED" you as saying something you didn't.


You took an ugly route in this discussion very early...it's sad because you missed the point that lady skadi very correctly points out.

I am however, disappointed that this topic has devolved into a conversation based on the clothing choices and modesty of women. The last pages of this thread have been argued to death and have in the process, buried the bigger picture and that is - a person's responsibility (to themselves) to actively do what they can, to be safe.

Now if you disagree with this..."a person's responsibility (to themselves) to actively do what they can, to be safe."....then I don't know what to think.


If you DO agree with that...then you have agreed with me this entire time because that is all I, and others, have been trying to say throughout this whole thread. But it got turned into us being attacked because we were "defending rapists" as someone put it. ONE part of this personal responsibility is being aware of what you wear...I do this and I'm not a female. But I know wearing certain types of clothing to certain places can single me out as a target. It's just common sense.


It's too bad we can't discuss this topic without being accused of defending rapist. So the topic gets buried...no one wants to talk about...and rape continue to happens. And then someone will ask "why does no one talk about this?"...and so they do...and this is what happens. It's sad.

Deleted by poster

[edit on 17-2-2010 by novacs4me]

Men and women are different. But the other sex can make concessions to ensure they do not harm the other sex. Men have been conditioned over the last hundred years that physically hitting women is wrong. Why has this been conditioned into man? Because men are usually physically stronger than women. For most people, the general rule is that men do not hit women and this is followed by the majority.

Another concession is in the field of sports. In most sports, men and women compete only against each other because the male body is stronger and tougher than the average female body. (Bigger heart, stronger muscles etc.). Many male athletes could easily defeat most female athletes in most sports based on these physical differences. Is this why most professional sports don't allow Men vs. Women events that count towards rankings?

Another example is the gender division at toilets. This is more of a social thing but why do men and women usually have separated public rest rooms? Probably because they are different and women feel safer and more at peace being separated from men. Many men have experienced sexual assaults in toilets if you look at history but men in general did not call for a further division of the current system.

What concessions have women made towards men in this regard? This request by men is pretty reasonable: don't wear clothes you know will set off biological responses in men that make them think more about sex. Women have a responsibility too to be aware of how men function and operate. Men have made so many concessions, it seems fair women should do the same.