Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

reply to post by MacDonagh


Having learned from you of the appallingly low conviction rate in Scotland, I can much better understand your posts

The Scots are awesomely strong women. They have to be, don't they ?

Thanks for your contributions to date

reply to post by MarlboroRedCowgirl


I can do no better than refer you to Rcjw1975's post

a couple of posts above

reply to post by Dock9


Put it this way. Most Scottish women are wonderfully vicious and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
reply to post by Dock9

 

Put it this way. Most Scottish women are wonderfully vicious and I wouldn't have it any other way.

A toss-up, between the Scots and Irish women, who certainly have more than their share of crosses to bear

But there's obviously 'something' about Scots and Irish men, despite their often dominance and misogyny (and taste for a tipple)

Males further south aren't that much different in attitude as regards women, as the conviction rate of one in 14 illustrates

I think it wise to step back and consider that hindsight is 20/20 and in almost every situation upon reflection, one will determine that they could have done something different, better, wiser and that action(s) may have resulted in the scenario playing out differently. Before we on this thread get bogged down in the details of "what if" scenarios or minute details such as what someone was wearing or whether someone had too much to drink, consider that it's the larger picture of crime and perception that is in question, no?

Yes, I think that there are many things one can do to help themselves stay safe. Will they do everything right, every time? Will that stop all potential crime? No Way. Not likely.

I have to wonder at the need for outsiders to find blame or wrongdoing with the victim? My suspicion is that we (people in general) seek to find reasons to explain why something bad happens. If it can be explained, than perhaps it could have been, or will be prevented in the future. The only problem with this need to blame and explain is that it misdirects the focus from the real reason something terrible happened. Or worse, maybe there just isn't a reason that can be explained away.



ed: weird grammar fix, drr



[edit on 14-2-2010 by LadySkadi]

Originally posted by rcwj1975
reply to post by MarlboroRedCowgirl

 

I think we ALL agree that even a drunk chick shouldn't be exposed to a guy having his way with her. The main question I believe or the main thought is don't women think THEY are NOT helping themselves by putting themselves into situations where scumbags WILL do this sort of thing?

You raise a good point. What I have learned from conversing with fellow victims that none of us thought we were putting ourselves in a situation to get raped. I went to a music festival with my boyfriend and best friend. Does that sound like a very likely environment for a rape? I know that several factors did contribute to my rape, but all of them were out of my control.

I think the focus of this "survey" way to find out if people think women could do a better job to NOT get themselves into a situation where this stuff happens.....and I agree it should NEVER happen, but it does and will continue to do so...soooo the main thing is to try and avoid it.

If I could have done anything to try and avoid my rape, I would have done it. I ended up injuring my rapist to the best of my ability to injure him, I scratched at his eyes, I kicked my legs, I did everything I could possibly think of doing. But it was all to no avail. I think "trying to avoid rape" is a very difficult task to set about doing, especially as you have eloquently put, every rape is of a different circumstance. Am I to live my life in paranoia, carrying weapons everywhere I go and flinching every time a man looks at me with desire, or am I to go on trusting that most men are not monsters?

reply to post by LadySkadi

I have to wonder at the need for outsiders to find blame or wrongdoing with the victim? My suspicion is that we (people in general) seek to find reasons to explain why something bad happens. If it can be explained, than perhaps it could have been, or will be prevented in the future. The only problem with this need to blame and explain is that sometimes, there isn't a reason.

Firstly, would like to commend you on what is a masterful post

Yes, we do seek to find reasons to explain why bad things happen. And as you say, we believe that if the 'bad thing' can be explained and understood, the information will be utilized in future prevention

' Wise men learn from observation. Fools learn by experience '

Our parents taught us about danger in the hope we'd evade such danger

We teach our own children, for the same reason

Animals do likewise


It's a fact that we often blame the victim, as when young boys, filled with alcohol, overturn their vehicle, kill their friends, cripple themselves and then stand sobbing in remorse at their friends' funerals

We say, ' If only they hadn't driven when drunk. If only they hadn't been going so fast. If only they hadn't been as reckless as to overtake in the rain on a blind corner '

It's the tendency of humans to 'look at both sides of the story'

And don't we say, ' It takes two to tango ' ?

What is interesting is that 50% of women polled, believed that rape victims contributed to their rape, and the women polled had presumably attended a rape crisis centre

The men polled were less judgemental re: rape victims

I'm wondering if these percentages were the same say fifty or a hundred years ago ?

Originally posted by MarlboroRedCowgirl
You raise a good point. What I have learned from conversing with fellow victims that none of us thought we were putting ourselves in a situation to get raped. I went to a music festival with my boyfriend and best friend. Does that sound like a very likely environment for a rape? I know that several factors did contribute to my rape, but all of them were out of my control.

I agree it is tough in those cases. Its a lose/lose for women at times. I agree with Lady that sometimes it just happens and you could of taken EVERY precaution in mind....and that is why I LOVE to arrest these scumbags and watch them rot in state pens!!!!!!

If I could have done anything to try and avoid my rape, I would have done it. I ended up injuring my rapist to the best of my ability to injure him, I scratched at his eyes, I kicked my legs, I did everything I could possibly think of doing. But it was all to no avail. I think "trying to avoid rape" is a very difficult task to set about doing, especially as you have eloquently put, every rape is of a different circumstance. Am I to live my life in paranoia, carrying weapons everywhere I go and flinching every time a man looks at me with desire, or am I to go on trusting that most men are not monsters?

Well I am glad you fought and did what you could to try and avoid the incident. Yes EVERY true rape case is different and involves many different factors. I would like to think most men are NOT monsters, but there ARE monsters among us.

When we give our rape programs at schools or in the public here we tell women the following. YES it is a VERY trumatizing experiance and one that I as a man could never imgine, but as a cop I need the women to look past that and stop feeling bad about being a victim to a crime you couldn't stop, and come forward immediatly. I have women PISSED at me all the time who come to me 3-4-5 years later and say they want Mr Smith arrested for rape and have NO IDEA how hard and damn near impossible it is to prove that and convict on it. Yet I then show them that we have a 89% conviction rate when women report within the first 24 hours of the rape. Again I cannot speak as a woman and will never try, but women as a whole need to bond together and teach that being raped requires an immediate report so we can do what we need to..and lock that scumbag up asap!!!!!

It's things like this that discourage any women from claiming that they were raped in the first place.

Originally posted by rcwj1975
Again I cannot speak as a woman and will never try, but women as a whole need to bond together and teach that being raped requires an immediate report so we can do what we need to..and lock that scumbag up asap!!!!!

You could not be more right. It gives me hope that there are police officers like you out there. I did report my rape within 24 hours, telling nobody else but the Chicago police what had happened to me. However, they simply traumatized me more by telling me since I had no idea the name of my rapist or his whereabouts that there was little they could do. And I understand now that there truly was little they can do, since the biological evidence I provided was also inconclusive. I will never have any justice for my rape, and that is simply a fact I have to live with.

Originally posted by WishForWings
It's things like this that discourage any women from claiming that they were raped in the first place.

The statistics in the article linked in the OP certainly indicate that a large percentage of women, for a variety of reasons, choose not to report

Originally posted by MarlboroRedCowgirl
You could not be more right. It gives me hope that there are police officers like you out there. I did report my rape within 24 hours, telling nobody else but the Chicago police what had happened to me. However, they simply traumatized me more by telling me since I had no idea the name of my rapist or his whereabouts that there was little they could do. And I understand now that there truly was little they can do, since the biological evidence I provided was also inconclusive. I will never have any justice for my rape, and that is simply a fact I have to live with.

Sometimes it IS a harsh reality and I am sorry for that. Now they should of saved any evidence the hospital DID collect for future assaults by the same scumbag, and hopefully they did. I can tell you first hand it is a VERY tough crime to solve, but very rewarding when done. The other thing is as you done, scratch him, get blood on you, get skin on you, etc....that DNA has led to me locking some guys up because guess what, they were already in the system for other crimes...SHOCKER!!!


[edit on 2/14/2010 by rcwj1975]

...for all we know, 54% of the females in that poll are nuns or sociopaths or pritzies who live in ivory towers or mental midgits that beat their kids...

reply to post by rcwj1975


The evidence I provided has been saved, and it did include skin fragments from under my fingernails. Trust me, there is not a day that goes by without hoping that I will get that call telling me they found the bastard. But a life centered around revenge is not a life worth living at all, but a part of me will always hold out for a day when justice might be served. Thanks so much for your replies, I really have enjoyed conversing with you.

reply to post by Dock9


Our news media barons love bad news with an almost sexual intensity. We can ignore good news, if we want, but bad news shocks the part of us that is still a primitive mammal living among giant dinosaurs. Our inner rodent freaks out, and we just have to read it or watch it. If you're trying to sell newspapers, proof of the apocalypse is your best friend. Even if you die in fire, you'll die in fire with a fat investment portfolio.

Like the threat of an ancient deity punishing us for not leaving crossed chicken bones on the graves of our adversaries, vague and chronologically indeterminate bad news captures our consciousness like nothing else. This is why our newspapers drool, giggle and fart whenever stories like this come out.

Notice how this article gets your blood boiling. It will sell said newspapers but I don't find it to be an accurate representation of existing social mores. Believe me it was not my intention to trivialize or make light of such a serious subject. If I offended anyone, I apologize.

Originally posted by MarlboroRedCowgirl
The evidence I provided has been saved, and it did include skin fragments from under my fingernails. Trust me, there is not a day that goes by without hoping that I will get that call telling me they found the bastard. But a life centered around revenge is not a life worth living at all, but a part of me will always hold out for a day when justice might be served. Thanks so much for your replies, I really have enjoyed conversing with you.

Good...and don't live life waiting for that call....thats like sitting around waiting for that guy to call you thought was amazing...if you sit there and stare at the phone...IT NEVER RINGS, DAMN PHONE..... Just trust me, from experiance, that maybe one day it will ring, and as tough as it will be facing him again, I promise you, watching him get his will be worth it. Until then never let a man or anyone take the ONLY life you have away from you....let my brothers in blue do what we do and I hope they find him.

You are very welcome...

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...for all we know, 54% of the females in that poll are nuns or sociopaths or pritzies who live in ivory towers or mental midgits that beat their kids...

According to the article, those most likely to say that accepting a drink or conversing with men in bars renders them partially responsible (for sexual attack) were the 18 to 24 age group

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by LadySkadi

 

To be honest, I didn't really know how to phrase it, although I've tried to phrase it more fully in a later post

For instance, the men in the poll were less judgmental of women. And the women polled were more likely to blame female victims of rape

There has to be a reason for this and so I wondered if men are just generally more chivalrous ? Or do men realize that 'there for the grace of God go I' when they read about accused/convicted rapists, because all men acknowledge that on some occasions, they've come close to raping a woman ? Or is it simply that men are conditioned by society to 'feel guilty' about rape and to accept guilt to the extent they regard women as automatically innocent victims re: rape ?

Then we come to the women polled. It seems they were quite specific about the hows and whys of rape. For instance, they believed that getting drunk and/or wearing revealing clothes or behaving provocatively contributes to rape

So, to summarize: do men fear that they harbour within themselves a potential rapist, which in turn leads them to regard women generally as potential victims who should be given benefit of the doubt ?

And do women recognize that had they (and women generally) behaved more responsibly, rape might have been avoided at least in some cases ?

Great post Dock, and good questions. I hope this doesn't get overlooked...

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
reply to post by Dock9

 

Our news media barons love bad news with an almost sexual intensity. We can ignore good news, if we want, but bad news shocks the part of us that is still a primitive mammal living among giant dinosaurs. Our inner rodent freaks out, and we just have to read it or watch it. If you're trying to sell newspapers, proof of the apocalypse is your best friend. Even if you die in fire, you'll die in fire with a fat investment portfolio.

Like the threat of an ancient deity punishing us for not leaving crossed chicken bones on the graves of our adversaries, vague and chronologically indeterminate bad news captures our consciousness like nothing else. This is why our newspapers drool, giggle and fart whenever stories like this come out.

Notice how this article gets your blood boiling. It will sell said newspapers but I don't find it to be an accurate representation of existing social mores. Believe me it was not my intention to trivialize or make light of such a serious subject. If I offended anyone, I apologize.

No apologies necessary

And I agree with your more recent post. It's not only the whore media, of course. ATS evidences all you've described equally well

Actually, the article linked in the OP is interesting rather than of the blood-boiling variety, insofar as it sheds light onto a little explored phenomenon --- that of judgementalism on the part of women as regards women with men proving to be more charitable

Women, by and large, are judgemental of other women. Women are their own harshest critics. Much has been written about 'the sisterhood', but in reality, it's shown very often to be a myth. Women compete with other women. Yes, we realise this results from the need, until relatively recently, for women to gain bread and board via marriage

But isn't there a stripped-bare practicality revealed by the fact that 50% of women hold rape victims at least partially-responsible ? Isn't this evidence that beneath all the 'equality' hype and womens' lib rhetoric of the 70's, women still recognise that it's in their own interests (and in their sisters' own interests) not to invite rape ... or be seen to have in some way invited it

Women clearly recognise that convictions are difficult to obtain. They recognise that their character may well be scoured in court. Perhaps they also fear retaliation, either from an aquitted, or released rapist or by his friends or even family ?

In short, the poll results indicate that women recognise that women stand to lose most. And it also appears to imply that women believe they must sacrifice certain freedoms (re: modes of behaviour and attire) if they are to evade rape and attempted rape

This is women stating this, not society, not males

reply to post by LadySkadi


Thank you. What (imo) differentiates this study/poll from other media reports on rape, is the opportunity it provides for exploration of attitudes (male and female) towards society's expectation of women